A good system trumps talent at this level, IMO | Syracusefan.com

A good system trumps talent at this level, IMO

IthacaBarrel

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too many MAC teams moving the football versus BCS competition to think otherwise. It gets you in the game. I am not saying it allows Syracuse to compete with Alabama however the fact that people are praying in here to win 2 conference games in a conference leads me to think that we aren't getting it done. That simply isn't get enough. Now, I am not getting all crazy or anything, but I think Marrone may need to bring in a new OC after the season if need be.. We cant rely on white knuckling every game out there. It should not be as difficult as he is making it. I am not asking for a miracle, just average proudction and this is year 3. At what point does he can his system? I hate the hybrid , I think he needs to overhaul this thing because we lack such an identity right now, one game run, next game pass. If he needs workhorse running back then great, go find one or he has to play Smith and Moore and use Bailey differently.

Doug, I love the job you have done but your offense doesn't know whether to or wind its watch right now and you and Kid N Play are at the helm right now. I also don't understand the coaching fraternity, why do coache's sons get the keys to the kingdom so much easier.. We have a guy that went from watching film for the Bills to OC.. I prefer somebody who has cut their teeth at a lower level. I could make an argument that a guy like Brian Angelichio is much better qualified than Can't Hackett. At least Angelichio can recruit.

In addition, if Doug is going to be here real long term he will need to cut assistants etc, whcih he has shown that he is willing to do, but he seems to bejoined at the hip with Can't Hackett
 
too many MAC teams moving the football versus BCS competition to think otherwise. It gets you in the game. I am not saying it allows Syracuse to compete with Alabama however the fact that people are praying in here to win 2 conference games in a **** conference leads me to think that we aren't getting it done. That simply isn't get enough. Now, I am not getting all crazy or anything, but I think Marrone may need to bring in a new OC after the season if need be.. We cant rely on white knuckling every game out there. It should not be as difficult as he is making it. I am not asking for a miracle, just average proudction and this is year 3. At what point does he **** can his system? I hate the hybrid ****, I think he needs to overhaul this thing because we lack such an identity right now, one game run, next game pass. If he needs workhorse running back then great, go find one or he has to play Smith and Moore and use Bailey differently.

Doug, I love the job you have done but your offense doesn't know whether to **** or wind its watch right now and you and Kid N Play are at the helm right now. I also don't understand the coaching fraternity, why do coache's sons get the keys to the kingdom so much easier.. We have a guy that went from watching film for the Bills to OC.. I prefer somebody who has cut their teeth at a lower level. I could make an argument that a guy like Brian Angelichio is much better qualified than Can't Hackett. At least Angelichio can recruit.

In addition, if Doug is going to be here real long term he will need to cut assistants etc, whcih he has shown that he is willing to do, but he seems to bejoined at the hip with Can't Hackett
when you think that complexity is the most important thing, you end up drawn to guys who've spent their entire lives immersed in it. too many pro guys here
 
Since we'll have more money to pay assistants now, I know a guy who isn't working, and would love the opportunity to play Maryland every year. In fact, he just burned his diploma from there. I also don't think he's on anyone's short list for a head coaching spot. His nickname is a kitchen appliance. His offense at the Dome would be fun to watch. Looks like he spent 3 years with Marrone at GT in 1997 to 1999.

Just saying... Who knows, they may hate each other for all I know.
 
agreed, classic group think.. They need some fresh ideas on the offensive side of the ball. The D is loaded with college coaching and look at that, agreed that we have had more athletes there but we also don't overthink too much. I am not saying that Shafer has been perfect this year but on an off year with lots of new faces and youth he still has the D playing about average, some good games some not so good. Doug where are the good games? I am not asking for June Jones here but dont want Grace Jones either
 
Since we'll have more money to pay assistants now, I know a guy who isn't working, and would love the opportunity to play Maryland every year. In fact, he just burned his diploma from there. I also don't think he's on anyone's short list for a head coaching spot. His nickname is a kitchen appliance. His offense at the Dome would be fun to watch. Looks like he spent 3 years with Marrone at GT in 1997 to 1999.

Just saying... Who knows, they may hate each other for all I know.

Doug needs to turn the offense over to someone, admit that the NFL system will never work and focus work towards being a great HC. I would take the OC from Toledo at this point, dude looked to be about 32. I think a guy like Fridge would work because he has the experience and Doug may be able to trust that.

If you call a guy an OC and he is still running the same crap you are then it's still your offense, GROB could never figure that out either with his abysmal defense
 
we keep trying to run these offenses that work at stanford and usc... but guess what, you put barkley woods and luck in a ho hum gimmick spread, they're still going to light it up. where are the pro style clusterf*ck offenses that are succeeding outside the factories? all we hear about is our natural disadvantages when compared to factories but why do we still run anything remotely west coast when only the factories can get away with it
 
we keep trying to run these offenses that work at stanford and usc... but guess what, you put barkley woods and luck in a ho hum gimmick spread, they're still going to light it up. where are the pro style clusterf*ck offenses that are succeeding outside the factories? all we hear about is our natural disadvantages but why do we still run anything remotely west coast when only the factories can get away with it

Show me a non factory program having success running a NFL offense? Is there one even out there? Turn it loose Doug, turn it loose
 
Yeah, I like the Fridge call but even if it's someone younger or different, it's OK as long as we are looking at a college offense. I don't think it's so much a question of system trumping talent, necessarily (I think Toledo, for instance, had several skill players that are easily the equal of ours, if not better). I think it's simply an issue of needing some sort of system that gets the most out of the guys you have (and hopefully recruiting a difference maker or two at some point). But Shafer has done wonders with what, logically, is basically the same talent level. And when the players haven't been as good (or at least are real young like this year), they've still made enough plays that they are contributing to wins and keeping the team in games that are ultimately are losses.

I remember when Shafer/Marrone came in we were all talking about how we needed to recruit speed and we were too slow, etc. Yet in Year 1, Shafer turned the defense around. Those kids that looked incredibly slow under GRob at least appeared to be able to play a bit under Shafer.

Our offense, on the other hand, looks a little like our defense under GRob -- not entirely sure what is coming next and simply not where they need to be (regardless of talent) to sustain much consistent success.
 
Doug needs to turn the offense over to someone, admit that the NFL system will never work and focus work towards being a great HC. I would take the OC from Toledo at this point, dude looked to be about 32. I think a guy like Fridge would work because he has the experience and Doug may be able to trust that.

If you call a guy an OC and he is still running the same crap you are then it's still your offense, GROB could never figure that out either with his abysmal defense

In general I agree with you. But we need to give them a chance. If this team doesn't make a Bowl this year, and doesn't go 8-4 (5-3) or better next year, then the O will HAVE to change. I rather it change now but they should be given a chance to do it their way. Only issue is Marrone has shown to be extremely stubborn thus far. If the O doesn't look better next year he will get some heat from the fanbase. Honeymoon is over starting next year.

The problem is that NFL guys believe that they are experts in the game of FB, and that they are far advanced than a college O. However they do not realize that what is best for the pros is not what is best for college. They are totally different games. In the NFL the talent difference form team to team is minimal. In college the talent can vary team to team, unit to unit, player to player. In the NFL it is about executing and drives. In CFB it is about play making. If Marrone believes that he knows what would work best, would he change?
 
too many MAC teams moving the football versus BCS competition to think otherwise. It gets you in the game. I am not saying it allows Syracuse to compete with Alabama however the fact that people are praying in here to win 2 conference games in a **** conference leads me to think that we aren't getting it done. That simply isn't get enough. Now, I am not getting all crazy or anything, but I think Marrone may need to bring in a new OC after the season if need be.. We cant rely on white knuckling every game out there. It should not be as difficult as he is making it. I am not asking for a miracle, just average proudction and this is year 3. At what point does he **** can his system? I hate the hybrid ****, I think he needs to overhaul this thing because we lack such an identity right now, one game run, next game pass. If he needs workhorse running back then great, go find one or he has to play Smith and Moore and use Bailey differently.

Doug, I love the job you have done but your offense doesn't know whether to **** or wind its watch right now and you and Kid N Play are at the helm right now. I also don't understand the coaching fraternity, why do coache's sons get the keys to the kingdom so much easier.. We have a guy that went from watching film for the Bills to OC.. I prefer somebody who has cut their teeth at a lower level. I could make an argument that a guy like Brian Angelichio is much better qualified than Can't Hackett. At least Angelichio can recruit.

In addition, if Doug is going to be here real long term he will need to cut assistants etc, whcih he has shown that he is willing to do, but he seems to bejoined at the hip with Can't Hackett

you have to also consider coaching budgets for assts. not every guy can be a high paid genius. doug already has a much larger budget than P or GRob had. i know the acc gig will help and maybe he gets even more but the pie is only so big. altho oc isn't the place i would go cheaper.
 
you have to also consider coaching budgets for assts. not every guy can be a high paid genius. doug already has a much larger budget than P or GRob had. i know the acc gig will help and maybe he gets even more but the pie is only so big. altho oc isn't the place i would go cheaper.

Agree, I think Doug is pretty much the OC, which to me leaves Hackett expendable. A guy like the Toledo OC could be paid adequately, he's 32. Long time MAC guy, played at Mount Union, O Line guy as well
 
oc isn't the place i would go cheaper.

This is the key, IMO. Lock up shafer and if you have to be able to move the ball and score to have any chance of getting to BCS games -- which obviously should be our goal. If it means they have to go young at a bunch of other spots, then so be it.

The other thing that's hard not to question, by the way, is the Adkins/Marrone combo with the OL. I'm not saying dump Adkins, per se, but this is a unit that has to make more progress by the end of the season, IMO.
 
Agree, I think Doug is pretty much the OC, which to me leaves Hackett expendable. Toledo OC could be paid adequately
he needs someone on offense who comes from a modern college passing offense. doesn't have to be some big name. but they need some kind of sanity check about how to tailor an offense for a team with limited practice time. who are these checks for marrone? wheatley? moore? hackett?

they tried that with the bubble screen all the time guy and since he predictably sucked, marrone says ok enough of that, let's get the nfl guys in here now.
 
All good points. I'm no P apologist but an example of the type of system you both are alluding to is what we had under Deleone. We used misdirection and mobile QBs to compensate for mediocre line play. Innovative offensive systems lose effectiveness (or even become obsolete) as they're disseminated and copied by other coaches. Talent level is usually what keeps an offensive system effective long after it's been adopted by peers.

I would like to see one of the following: 1.) Marrone take over the playcalling/OC and replace Hackett w/ an exceptional recruiter. Or 2.) Hire the Fridge type of experienced offensive architect/playcaller who has college experience.
 
This is the key, IMO. Lock up shafer and if you have to be able to move the ball and score to have any chance of getting to BCS games -- which obviously should be our goal. If it means they have to go young at a bunch of other spots, then so be it.

The other thing that's hard not to question, by the way, is the Adkins/Marrone combo with the OL. I'm not saying dump Adkins, per se, but this is a unit that has to make more progress by the end of the season, IMO.

I said this 2 years ago but Browning was a better O Line coach that Marrone or Adkins, Just my opinion.

Adkins is a pretty key to the puzzle with recruiting though, I think it will get better too with the ACC
 
Marrone is simply making this too hard, IMO. Outside of the factories, look at the College qb's they are almost all kids that can run as well, may not be prolific passers but they can move as well.. Dual threat Doug, geeze how nice would a draw or a option play be once in awhile as well. DAMIT WE HAVE ING SUCKED ON OFFENSE FOR 10 YEARS!!! What. 10 ING YEARS with these chicken offenses, what s wrong with these ing people. sorry for the rant

That said, has anyone read Leach's book, funny dude, really liked it. I know I know, all you dancing nancies get upset.( Insert 690 west post, that he is a bad man here) and he locked some spoiled brat in a equipment room for awhile but his book is a good read
 
In general I agree with you. But we need to give them a chance. If this team doesn't make a Bowl this year, and doesn't go 8-4 (5-3) or better next year, then the O will HAVE to change. I rather it change now but they should be given a chance to do it their way. Only issue is Marrone has shown to be extremely stubborn thus far. If the O doesn't look better next year he will get some heat from the fanbase. Honeymoon is over starting next year.

The problem is that NFL guys believe that they are experts in the game of FB, and that they are far advanced than a college O. However they do not realize that what is best for the pros is not what is best for college. They are totally different games. In the NFL the talent difference form team to team is minimal. In college the talent can vary team to team, unit to unit, player to player. In the NFL it is about executing and drives. In CFB it is about play making. If Marrone believes that he knows what would work best, would he change?

Either way, they can't change anything now, they just need to keep working in younger guys where they are the preferred long term solution.

End of the year, it's a different ball game, we're in a position of strength now in hiring assistants. So if this year's results don't improve on offense, you have to think about doing something. Would be 2 full years with the same offensive staff, same system, a lot of the same players.
If the results stay poor and the staff sticks with the system as they develop the younger players, maybe we'll all be rewarded. But it also seems risky to me. This week will be the halfway point and no 400 yard games so far. Defenses in the 2nd half only get tougher, and more familiar with what you are doing.
 
Agree, I think Doug is pretty much the OC, which to me leaves Hackett expendable. A guy like the Toledo OC could be paid adequately, he's 32. Long time MAC guy, played at Mount Union, O Line guy as well

but, if the toledo oc were paid more than what hackett gets (i assume he would be), then it has to come from another coach unless the budget for assts is increased again which is possible. it's just not a open wallet.
 
you have to also consider coaching budgets for assts. not every guy can be a high paid genius. doug already has a much larger budget than P or GRob had. i know the acc gig will help and maybe he gets even more but the pie is only so big. altho oc isn't the place i would go cheaper.

ACC is going to provide a lot more money. At a minimum we go from what, $4M to $12M per year? And if the ACC renegotiations go as they think it will, maybe up to $16M per year? This is a world of difference. Enough to pay Shafer at market, Marrone at market (market isn't Saban for him), and get an OC at market. What's the difference in what we pay for those 3 roles now from what we might need to pay them, can't be more than $2M total I wouldn't think. 2 of the 3 are happy here, the 3rd you just need to go find.
 
Marrone is simply making this too hard, IMO. Outside of the factories, look at the College qb's they are almost all kids that can run as well, may not be prolific passers but they can move as well.. Dual threat Doug, geeze how nice would a draw or a option play be once in awhile as well. DAMIT WE HAVE ******* SUCKED ON OFFENSE FOR 10 YEARS!!! What. 10 ******* YEARS with these chicken **** offenses, what s wrong with these ******* people. sorry for the rant

That said, has anyone read Leach's book, funny dude, really liked it. I know I know, all you dancing nancies get upset.( Insert 690 west post, that he is a bad man here) and he locked some spoiled brat in a equipment room for awhile but his book is a good read

DM makes a lot of things harder than they have to be, IMO. I want to be clear that I'm happy he's here and think he's done a great job. But all the injury stuff and closing practice -- IMO it's absurd. I really don't think RU changes their game plan knowing Gulley's not there -- the kid had one good game in his career and was still the no. 2 rb. And not going for it in OT is fine, but his explanation wreaked of a guy that wasn't sure what he wanted to do there. Didn't want to take it out of the players' hands in a 4th - and - 1? Isn't that the definition of putting it in the hands of your players?

Anyway I agree with the rant. My additional comment here is this: Why can't we run some QB draws/read option stuff with Nassib? He looks like a solid athlete to me. I know he won't be Pat White, but it's another way to diversify this offense and (hopefully) move the ball a bit more.

My buddy works for Under Armour and says Leach is a weird, but funny dude. Apparently likes his gentleman's clubs.
 
Marrone is simply making this too hard, IMO. Outside of the factories, look at the College qb's they are almost all kids that can run as well, may not be prolific passers but they can move as well.. Dual threat Doug, geeze how nice would a draw or a option play be once in awhile as well. DAMIT WE HAVE ******* SUCKED ON OFFENSE FOR 10 YEARS!!! What. 10 ******* YEARS with these chicken **** offenses, what s wrong with these ******* people. sorry for the rant

That said, has anyone read Leach's book, funny dude, really liked it. I know I know, all you dancing nancies get upset.( Insert 690 west post, that he is a bad man here) and he locked some spoiled brat in a equipment room for awhile but his book is a good read

Cybil! ;)
 
ACC is going to provide a lot more money. At a minimum we go from what, $4M to $12M per year? And if the ACC renegotiations go as they think it will, maybe up to $16M per year? This is a world of difference. Enough to pay Shafer at market, Marrone at market (market isn't Saban for him), and get an OC at market. What's the difference in what we pay for those 3 roles now from what we might need to pay them, can't be more than $2M total I wouldn't think. 2 of the 3 are happy here, the 3rd you just need to go find.

Yeah, and if you're not committed 100% to football after completely overhauling your entire conference alignment and, perhaps, your entire identity as a university, solely for football (if someone mentions the academic profiles of ACC schools I"m going to throw my computer out the window) then how are you going to expect to actually ever be a player in the new conference?
 
but, if the toledo oc were paid more than what hackett gets (i assume he would be), then it has to come from another coach unless the budget for assts is increased again which is possible. it's just not a open wallet.

Dont you think Hackett as our OC makes more than Toledo OC, unless Hackett isnt being paid as an OC, isn't a real OC and is just Doug's puppet?
 
Cybil! ;)

Yep one of the reasons I pulled the plug on the Tulane trip, there were several but after 5 straight weeks including the west coast trip, I need two weeks off to prepare for 6 more. I want to go to the Pitt game if it means something
 
ACC is going to provide a lot more money. At a minimum we go from what, $4M to $12M per year? And if the ACC renegotiations go as they think it will, maybe up to $16M per year? This is a world of difference. Enough to pay Shafer at market, Marrone at market (market isn't Saban for him), and get an OC at market. What's the difference in what we pay for those 3 roles now from what we might need to pay them, can't be more than $2M total I wouldn't think. 2 of the 3 are happy here, the 3rd you just need to go find.

Definitely we get more $$$$ form the ACC...eventually. I don't know how much SU wants to borrow on the future to pay for something now (altho TGD does it all the time with facilities). But who knows how much that extra money will go to football salaries. There is a whole department plus the thoughts on facilities. The budget for all coaches, men and women, is about $8M.
 

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