A good system trumps talent at this level, IMO

[Czar]

Everything you say does not explain Boise or Wisconsin.

 

[billsin01]

Talent, in my view, trumps systems.

It begins and ends with talent.

I tend to go more with systems (how many college QBs have put up huge numbers --running and/or passing -- only to do nothing or not even get drafted in the nfl -- that has to speak to a system, no?), but I think the debate is best settled by pointing out that it's not an either/or debate.

What the cuse needs is a combination of improved talent, better system and a bunch of other factors. I tend to think development will be a bigger key for them than purely recruiting talent, but there are other factors as well including random things like luck and opposing coaching hires (more Kragthorpes please and can Ted Roof get another ACC job?), facilities/administration support, grades, staff continuity, etc.

 

[Millhouse]

So, you feel that Ryan Nassib could run the Oklahoma offense.

You could be right.

The problem is that he is not at Oklahoma.

I know you love "systems" - especially those that throw the ball a lot.

You and I have always disagreed however about the impact of talent.

Talent, in my view, trumps systems.

It begins and ends with talent.

Coach Mac was a lousy coach with poor talent and a very good coach with very good talent.

P was very good with very talent and mediocre with mediocre talent.

Very few of these guys are magicians - they can only do so much with what they have.

Marrone I suspect is using a system that best exploits what Ryan Nassib can do.

If Ryan and Charlie were to get hurt, I suspect that Marrone would run a different system to accomodate the talents of JFK.

no reason you can't have both. the air raid made bad schools competitive for a long time. now we're seeing good school jump on board with talent and they're succeeding. we'd have a big opportunity. penn state is jurassic park, rutgers is a mess on offense too, BC will always be pro style, and UConn will do the p and d thing for the rest of the year. nothing's saying we can't upgrade talent - air raid doesn't preclude that

 

[OrangePA]

I'm not sure I agree that bad schools were made competitive by throwing the ball - at least bad schools with untalented QBs.

The QB has to have some talent to run a passing offense. I'm not sure Ryan has that ability.

A

 

[OrangePA]

Everything you say does not explain Boise or Wisconsin.

You again?

You think Wisconsin does not have talent? You think Wisconsin is a pass-oriented offense?

And you think Boise does not have talent? You think Ryan Nassib has the talent of Kellen Moore?

I think most would disagree with those conclusions.

 

[Millhouse]

I'm not sure I agree that bad schools were made competitive by throwing the ball - at least bad schools with untalented QBs.

The QB has to have some talent to run a passing offense. I'm not sure Ryan has that ability.

A

that's harsh but i agree with you about nassib's ability. i don't think you have to be thaaat talented to succeed in a jones/leach offense. what's colt brennan or the chinese guy doing? graham harrell? all better than nassib, sure, but none of them are nfl qbs (maybe some are backups but they'll never play)

geno smith, look at what he's doing this year compared to last year. last year he threw for 119 against LSU. this year, 463. granted it took a lot more passes to do it.

we're already having nassib throw plenty, might as well suffer through it in an offense we know works. we don't know that marrone's does. any school that would get pointed to in marrone's defense (west coast works at USC) would be factories much more so than any air raid school

 

[billsin01]

I'm not really sure what we have in Nassib and I'm not entirely sure anyone on this board knows. I mean, the kid is smart, has plenty of arm (IMO), has shown an ability to go through progressions, has OK accuracy on short throws, etc. He also struggles with the deep ball, has fits of inaccuracy and may lack that sorta intangible "feel" for the position. I also don't know what I think of him running with the ball b/c he's never asked to do it and, according to Marrone, appears to be told expressly not to do it. I don't see him in the bledsoe or manning mold (in any way, but in this case talking about being completely immobile).

At the end of the day I believe he probably could function fairly well in a spread type offense but I'm not sure anyone can truly assert that he could or couldn't. I have a hard time believing he couldn't hold a candle talent and ability-wise to a kid like Tommy Chang or the like.

 

[OrangePA]

that's harsh but i agree with you about nassib's ability. i don't think you have to be thaaat talented to succeed in a jones/leach offense. what's colt brennan or the chinese guy doing? graham harrell? all better than nassib, sure, but none of them are nfl qbs (maybe some are backups but they'll never play)

geno smith, look at what he's doing this year compared to last year. last year he threw for 119 against LSU. this year, 463. granted it took a lot more passes to do it.

we're already having nassib throw plenty, might as well suffer through it in an offense we know works. we don't know that marrone's does. any school that would get pointed to in marrone's defense (west coast works at USC) would be factories much more so than any air raid school

Again, anything would work at USC, including the Wing T, the Wishbone or the Run and Shoot.

Offenses "work" if there are players to make it work.

Colt Brennan was a very talented QB. Change was also a very talented QB. That they did not make it in the NFL does not change that conclusion.

If you are right, then one really does have to question Marrone's ability to coach. That you - a non-football person - would be able to see something that a professional football cannot see, would tell me that the professional football guy does not measure up.

I hope that is not the case here.

 

[Millhouse]

Again, anything would work at USC, including the Wing T, the Wishbone or the Run and Shoot.

Offenses "work" if there are players to make it work.

Colt Brennan was a very talented QB. Change was also a very talented QB. That they did not make it in the NFL does not change that conclusion.

If you are right, then one really does have to question Marrone's ability to coach. That you - a non-football person - would be able to see something that a professional football cannot see, would tell me that the professional football guy does not measure up.

I hope that is not the case here.

i agree that anything would work at USC - that was the point i was trying to make.

SMU just scored at will against TCU and won. they were deader than dead. TCU's defense is great every year. if that example doesn't make you go hmm, nothing will. You simply can't find a better example of a good scheme elevating a dead program.

marrone's a good coach but these guys aren't geniuses (sure took him a long time to graduate from here). he knows what he knows. and what he knows isn't what works best in college, especially in our situation.

these guys don't bothering trying to change their stripes based on trends - they have their offense and they go all in on it. you have the pistol guys, you have the spread option guys, you have the pro style guys, you have the multiple guys (ie the guys who don't know what they wanna be). can't be an expert in everything. it's just that marrone's offense is too hard to implement for what you get out of it in college. marrone is probably the best person in the world at implementing sean payton's offense who isn't named sean payton (or maybe brees). but we don't need a west coast offense in any form

he has an out though. he can hand off the offense to a college guy. focus on offensive line, toughness, recruiting, game day decision, managing the program. problem is, he got burned in year one by handing it off to the guy who went all in on the bubble screen (which should just be a play to keep defenses honest, not something you live and die by). i hope he's not scared off. because hip hop hackett knows what he (and his daddy) knows and whatever it is, it's not collegiate.

 

[Czar]

You again?

You think Wisconsin does not have talent? You think Wisconsin is a pass-oriented offense?

And you think Boise does not have talent? You think Ryan Nassib has the talent of Kellen Moore?

I think most would disagree with those conclusions.

You do realize they recruit similar to our level, right? Idaho is not a football hotbed.

 

[PhatOrange]

too many MAC teams moving the football versus BCS competition to think otherwise. It gets you in the game. I am not saying it allows Syracuse to compete with Alabama however the fact that people are praying in here to win 2 conference games in a **** conference leads me to think that we aren't getting it done. That simply isn't get enough. Now, I am not getting all crazy or anything, but I think Marrone may need to bring in a new OC after the season if need be.. We cant rely on white knuckling every game out there. It should not be as difficult as he is making it. I am not asking for a miracle, just average proudction and this is year 3. At what point does he **** can his system? I hate the hybrid ****, I think he needs to overhaul this thing because we lack such an identity right now, one game run, next game pass. If he needs workhorse running back then great, go find one or he has to play Smith and Moore and use Bailey differently.

Doug, I love the job you have done but your offense doesn't know whether to **** or wind its watch right now and you and Kid N Play are at the helm right now. I also don't understand the coaching fraternity, why do coache's sons get the keys to the kingdom so much easier.. We have a guy that went from watching film for the Bills to OC.. I prefer somebody who has cut their teeth at a lower level. I could make an argument that a guy like Brian Angelichio is much better qualified than Can't Hackett. At least Angelichio can recruit.

In addition, if Doug is going to be here real long term he will need to cut assistants etc, whcih he has shown that he is willing to do, but he seems to bejoined at the hip with Can't Hackett

I don't know man. I still think you need to recruit the right talent to fit your system.

Heard Dabo Sweeney on the radio today talking about Clemson (by the way he said he has 42 true and redshirt freshman on his team that's half his scholarship players) anyhow he was talking about their success this season coaches and working hard etc but then he says, "“at the end of the day you gotta recruit great players”.

Assuming a coach is a good coach, I think the bottom line is recruiting good players.

 

[billsin01]

Assuming a coach is a good coach, I think the bottom line is recruiting good players.

Again, this isn't either/or. I happen to think, if we're ranking these things, that development and strength and conditioning are actually more important than the actual recruiting for this program. No matter how well we recruit, the vast majority of these kids are going to need a redshirt, a body transformation and some legit schooling on technique and the systems (offense or defense).