a terrible coach

[dash-30-dash]

so I'm watching this show on coach k. He gets the Duke job after coaching and playing at army. Army? In in first year he goes 17-12 quickly followed up with 10-17 and 11 and 17. They lost to wagner at Duke. I wonder how many people wanted K gone at that time. Of course, he was recruiting great. That is a big difference. They were also playing against great competition. That is another big difference. The point is I guess that we all have to realize that it takes time to built from nothing. Which is where we were at. Rock bottom. All of this to say that at the end of the day, we don't know yet whether he is the guy or not. Anyone that is sure, either way, has an agenda.

 

[Stern]

. All of this to say that at the end of the day, we don't know yet whether he is the guy or not. Anyone that is sure, either way, has an agenda.

Sounds like YOU are the one with the agenda

 

[orange03]

so I'm watching this show on coach k. He gets the Duke job after coaching and playing at army. Army? In in first year he goes 17-12 quickly followed up with 10-17 and 11 and 17. They lost to wagner at Duke. I wonder how many people wanted K gone at that time. Of course, he was recruiting great. That is a big difference. They were also playing against great competition. That is another big difference. The point is I guess that we all have to realize that it takes time to built from nothing. Which is where we were at. Rock bottom. All of this to say that at the end of the day, we don't know yet whether he is the guy or not. Anyone that is sure, either way, has an agenda.

You do realize that the landscape of college sports is just a little different then it was back then, right? Coaches don't have the luxury of time whether it's fair or not. It's not even about the wins and losses for me, not all of it anyway. Our style of play is beyond boring, our actual gameplay is just as bad. Another year where we regress as the year goes on. DM's game day decisions are often...confusing. He hasn't proven to be a really good recruiter. Nobody knows exactly, but I've seen enough to form my judgement.

 

[Orange&Blue44]

Sounds like YOU are the one with the agenda

This is a case of psychological transference, or projection, where YOU take what is going on in Your head ( about yourself) and project it onto another person( dash- 30-dash).

 

[Stern]

This is a case of psychological transference, or projection, where YOU take what is going on in Your head ( about yourself) and project it onto another person( dash- 30-dash).

No but you have a defend Marrone at all costs mentality and bring it up in every post now and starting threads on it. Hence, pushing an agenda

 

[anglerman]

No but you have a defend Marrone at all costs mentality and bring it up in every post now and starting threads on it. Hence, pushing an agenda

Dude you have no objectivity whatsoever! Stop with this ignorant negativity! Marrone has totally chnged the culture of the program. Yes this is a dissapointing year but have you entertained the possibilty that 'it's not coaching? All coaces have off years, even the very best of coaches. He hasnt had a large enough body of work for you to be so negative. Just try being objective, last years team did not play like this one. They were much tougher, sometimes it really is the players. Marrone said this team is not playing games like they are practicing. Some teams just don't have "it".

 

[Stern]

Dude you have no objectivity whatsoever! Stop with this ignorant negativity! Marrone has totally chnged the culture of the program. Yes this is a dissapointing year but have you entertained the possibilty that 'it's not coaching? All coaces have off years, even the very best of coaches. He hasnt had a large enough body of work for you to be so negative. Just try being objective, last years team did not play like this one. They were much tougher, sometimes it really is the players. Marrone said this team is not playing games like they are practicing. Some teams just don't have "it".

who's being so negative? I'm not calling for the guy to be fired. Once again...YOU pushing an agenda!!

Little sensitive there junior

 

[kingottoiii]

Couple points

1. Different sport, can't compare

2. GRob IMO easily cost us 2 Ws a year with his awful coaching, So IMO a mediocre HC would have gone 18-29 over that span which is 4.5-7.25 each year.

3. GRob was left with an empty cupboard. That played a role in his bad record. If he had better talent you can add a few more Ws.

4. GRob did not leave an empty cupboard for Marrone.

5. The BE that GRob went up against was A LOT better than the BE that Marrone has faced.

So take that all together and a mediocre HC should be around .500 the last three years. That is exactly where Marrone is (4-8, 6-5, 5-5). So GRob took over a lot less talented team and faced harder competition than Marrone. Even if GRob was mediocre instead of god awful as a HC, he should have a worse record than Marrone has so far. We have improved because we don't have GRob. That was almost a given. But we really haven't improved at all under Marrone. If we lose out then he has averaged 5 Ws a year the last three years, which is exactly where we would have been with a mediocre HC from 2005-2008.

I am NOT saying that Marrone should be fired. I am saying he is mediocre and will have to make changes if he ever wants to be more than mediocre. I am also saying that people give him too much credit for not being GRob.

 

[anglerman]

Oh ya the cupboard was stacked when GROB left!

 

[RF2044]

Couple points

1. Different sport, can't compare

2. GRob IMO easily cost us 2 Ws a year with his awful coaching, So IMO a mediocre HC would have gone 18-29 over that span which is 4.5-7.25 each year.

3. GRob was left with an empty cupboard. That played a role in his bad record. If he had better talent you can add a few more Ws.

4. GRob did not leave an empty cupboard for Marrone.

5. The BE that GRob went up against was A LOT better than the BE that Marrone has faced.

So take that all together and a mediocre HC should be around .500 the last three years. That is exactly where Marrone is (4-8, 6-5, 5-5). So GRob took over a lot less talented team and faced harder competition than Marrone. Even if GRob was mediocre instead of god awful as a HC, he should have a worse record than Marrone has so far. We have improved because we don't have GRob. That was almost a given. But we really haven't improved at all under Marrone. If we lose out then he has averaged 5 Ws a year the last three years, which is exactly where we would have been with a mediocre HC from 2005-2008.

I am NOT saying that Marrone should be fired. I am saying he is mediocre and will have to make changes if he ever wants to be more than mediocre. I am also saying that people give him too much credit for not being GRob.

I don't think your logic holds up on several of those points. GRob took over a team coming off of a bowl appearance. Yes, a pretty damn mediocre 6-5 bowl team that got smoked in the bowl, but a bowl team nevertheless with lots of key personnel returning on both sides of the ball. He promptly went 1-10.

GRob inherited a better team than Marrone did--I'm not even sure that can be debated.

There's no way to

I agree with #1 and #5.

 

[kingottoiii]

I don't think your logic holds up on several of those points. GRob took over a team coming off of a bowl appearance. Yes, a pretty damn lousy 6-5 bowl team that got smoked in the bowl, but a bowl team nevertheless. He promptly went 1-10.

GRob inherited a better team than Marrone did--I'm not even sure that can be debated.

That was not a good team in 2005. Sure we should have been a 4 W team (see point number 2), but we were still a bad team. Also there was absolutely nothing behind the SRs that year. So that made 2006-2008 difficult for even GRob. Our LBs, WRs, and RBs were much worse than what GRob left behind. We still are not great at any of those positions. But GRob was left with MAC level talent. Marrone was left with CUSA. Still not good but certainly better.

 

[RF2044]

That was not a good team in 2005. Sure we should have been a 4 W team (see point number 2), but we were still a bad team. Also there was absolutely nothing behind the SRs that year. So that made 2006-2008 difficult for even GRob. Our LBs, WRs, and RBs were much worse than what GRob left behind. We still are not great at any of those positions. But GRob was left with MAC level talent. Marrone was left with CUSA. Still not good but certainly better.

There's no basis of fact for your point #2--it is pretty subjective.

I agree that it wasn't a very good team, but it was a bowl team with lots of players returning. A good coach might have been able to match the outcomes from the year before. GRob got 1 win. That wasn't on the talent--it was on him being completely inept.

If you think that GRob inherited more than Marrone, I completely disagree--and I'm not sure that there would be too many people who'd agree with you. Not looking to start a pissing match, King--I just don't agree with your central premise about the respective state of the program at the times when each respective head coach took over.

 

[Deano]

so I'm watching this show on coach k. He gets the Duke job after coaching and playing at army. Army? In in first year he goes 17-12 quickly followed up with 10-17 and 11 and 17. They lost to wagner at Duke. I wonder how many people wanted K gone at that time. Of course, he was recruiting great. That is a big difference. They were also playing against great competition. That is another big difference. The point is I guess that we all have to realize that it takes time to built from nothing. Which is where we were at. Rock bottom. All of this to say that at the end of the day, we don't know yet whether he is the guy or not. Anyone that is sure, either way, has an agenda.

He was recruiting great thanks to the boosters and the $$$ they were shelling out. Duke was an average b-ball school before he got there, they only had one FF and then all of a sudden they are getting McD's All-American's left and right. I still remember Bees years ago posting the links with all the new cars the players had. Then there is Battier recruitment, plus throw in the Chris Duhon one too. How they manage to get away with all of that is beyond me.

 

[tep624]

3. GRob was left with an empty cupboard. That played a role in his bad record. If he had better talent you can add a few more Ws.

4. GRob did not leave an empty cupboard for Marrone.

GRob was not left with an empty cupboard.
Damien Rhodes, Steve Gregory, Anthony Smith, Joe Fields, Tanard Jackson, Tony Fiammetta, Kelvin Smith, Jameel McClain, Quinn Ojinaka, Steve Franklin, Ryan Durand, James Wyche. Those guys were all on the roster in GRob's first year, and these were only the names I picked off that either have played in the NFL or were factors in college - there were some others I left off.

The biggest problem GRob had with the roster were the underclassmen - not a lot of quality there. Additionally, he did not have a very competent QB as a holdover. He did recruit both Andrew Robinson, who had flashes, and Nassib who has developed into a serviceable QB.

I do agree that GRob did not leave an empty cupboard for Marrone, but he did not recruit evenly. He pulled in some high end talent at some of the skill positions, but again no blue chip QB. There were some severe gaps on the defensive side of the ball and on the O Line. Also, the overall quality of GRob's classes wasn't much different than P's all things considered - GRob pulled in more blue chippers but half of them never made it to campus.

 

[rrlbees]

There's no basis of fact for your point #2--it is pretty subjective.

I agree that it wasn't a very good team, but it was a bowl team with lots of players returning. A good coach might have been able to match the outcomes from the year before. GRob got 1 win. That wasn't on the talent--it was on him being completely inept.

If you think that GRob inherited more than Marrone, I completely disagree--and I'm not sure that there would be too many people who'd agree with you. Not looking to start a pissing match, King--I just don't agree with your central premise about the respective state of the program at the times when each respective head coach took over.

I agree with King, but I also agree with you. That first GRob year there as some talent in the senior class, but zero behind it. While there were some good seniors and not much talented depth, that was not a 1 win team, but it wasn't a bowl team either. After that year, there was not talent at all. Look at those last 3 recruiting years of P. While GRob inherited more senior talent than Marrone did, after that Marrone definitely had more players 11-85.

 

[ClkWrkOrange]

but a bowl team nevertheless with lots of key personnel returning on both sides of the ball.

We didn't return much on O at all from that team.

 

[ClkWrkOrange]

That first GRob year there as some talent in the senior class, but zero behind it. quote]
exactly.

 

[RF2044]

I agree with King, but I also agree with you. That first GRob year there as some talent in the senior class, but zero behind it. While there were some good seniors and not much talented depth, that was not a 1 win team, but it wasn't a bowl team either. After that year, there was not talent at all. Look at those last 3 recruiting years of P. While GRob inherited more senior talent than Marrone did, after that Marrone definitely had more players 11-85.

The point is, GRob did not inherit an "empty cupboard." There was talent on both sides of the ball on the team he took over, including several guys who ended up playing on Sundays. Tep does a nice job of summarizing the players that were on that team above, so I won't duplicate it here, but there was sufficient talent on that team to contend for a bowl berth.

Listen, I'm not suggesting that either situation was ideal for either coach. But GRob arrived at a time when the program had clearly gotten stale, but was still a .500 type of team. Marrone arrived after what some consider to be the worst four year stint in program history, into a situation where we were literally the worst BCS conference team in NCAA football, and considered a national laughingstock. KingOtto's premise above is that Marrone walked into a more favorable situation--I just don't agree with that.

 

[rrlbees]

The point is, GRob did not inherit an "empty cupboard."

I said that, in the senior class. Nothing behind it. One class does not make a cupboard. I also said that was not a 1 win team. Grob should have done 2 things. Stick with the system in place since it was a senior dominated team and not change the system, then the years after that get rid of or bench most everyone else and play all kids.

 

[Chip]

Do people think you can win without WRs? If yes give me the blueprint for 2005. Returning WRs had caught 4 career passes.

GRob shouldn't have let Gregory move over but that's a tough call for a new coach when it's what the kid wants and what he's best at.

It's not always about how many players you lose, it's who and where you lose them. GRob starts with Lane, Moss, Rhodes with Kareem Jones as backup RB. Marrone starts with Mike Williams, Carter, Bailey. Who would you rather have at your offensive disposal? Both had some good defensive players.

 

[kingottoiii]

I said that, in the senior class. Nothing behind it. One class does not make a cupboard. I also said that was not a 1 win team. Grob should have done 2 things. Stick with the system in place since it was a senior dominated team and not change the system, then the years after that get rid of or bench most everyone else and play all kids.

That was my point. Not sure what RF is missing? Perception wise we were a much better program in 2005 then in 2009. But talent wise we were in worse shape. GRob in year 1 likely took 4 to 5 win talent and made it into a 1 win team. Which goes back to my point about how GRob likely cost SU 2 games a year on average with his awful HCing. After that first year there was absolutely nothing there. Sorry but the cupboard was completely empty after year 1. No HC would have won. Marrone took over a team with holes but there was at least SOMETHING to work with. Also RF is dismissing all the SRs we lost in 2004. The played a huge role in getting us to 6-6. Without them we had no shot at a Bowl. That 2005 team was NOT a Bowl calibre team. To think that we were a .500 type program when GRob took over is wrong.

 

[orange03]

That was my point. Not sure what RF is missing? Perception wise we were a much better program in 2005 then in 2009. But talent wise we were in worse shape. GRob in year 1 likely took 4 to 5 win talent and made it into a 1 win team. Which goes back to my point about how GRob likely cost SU 2 games a year on average with his awful HCing. After that first year there was absolutely nothing there. Sorry but the cupboard was completely empty after year 1. No HC would have won. Marrone took over a team with holes but there was at least SOMETHING to work with. Also RF is dismissing all the SRs we lost in 2004. The played a huge role in getting us to 6-6. Without them we had no shot at a Bowl. That 2005 team was NOT a Bowl calibre team. To think that we were a .500 type program when GRob took over is wrong.

Agree. I think he's generally speaking that things were thought of to better off when GROB took over as opposed to when DM did--we haven't sunken to our lowest low at that point, but I think DM inherited a more talented roster than what GROB was left with. What GROB did while here should be punishable by jail time, but that's another argument.

 

[RF2044]

That was my point. Not sure what RF is missing? Perception wise we were a much better program in 2005 then in 2009. But talent wise we were in worse shape. GRob in year 1 likely took 4 to 5 win talent and made it into a 1 win team. Which goes back to my point about how GRob likely cost SU 2 games a year on average with his awful HCing. After that first year there was absolutely nothing there. Sorry but the cupboard was completely empty after year 1. No HC would have won. Marrone took over a team with holes but there was at least SOMETHING to work with. Also RF is dismissing all the SRs we lost in 2004. The played a huge role in getting us to 6-6. Without them we had no shot at a Bowl. That 2005 team was NOT a Bowl calibre team. To think that we were a .500 type program when GRob took over is wrong.

Was the senior class not part of what GRob inherited when he took over?

What's your take on Tep's post above?

 

[Chip]

Agree. I think he's generally speaking that things were thought of to better off when GROB took over as opposed to when DM did--we haven't sunken to our lowest low at that point, but I think DM inherited a more talented roster than what GROB was left with. What GROB did while here should be punishable by jail time, but that's another argument.

That's the problem, many can't separate the two. He inherited something bad and made it much worse. And because it was so much worse so quickly, people said "but he inherited a co Big East champion!"

Ask Coach P was he thinks about inheriting Big East champions.

 

[RF2044]

That's the problem, many can't separate the two. He inherited something bad and made it much worse. And because it was so much worse so quickly, people said "but he inherited a co Big East champion!"

Ask Coach P was he thinks about inheriting Big East champions.

Is that directed at me? Because I have no problem separating the argument. I think GRob was an ass clown of a coach who came in and tried to implement new systems on both sides of the ball that sucked, and the team's performance plummeted. I also believe that he had way more talent on that 2005 team than 1-10.

And yet, he came in spouting off about having the talent to compete for national championships in short order, and that all the new coaching staff needed to do was implement a new offensive system for that to happen. You know--kind of like the same thing that lots of posters are clamoring for now to have everything magically improve.

It's all about the talent, no matter what system you run. GRob couldn't get it done on the recruiting trail with QB, WR, TE, or OL, so his crappy systems never came together. So far, Marrone hasn't recruited an impressive array of skilled players, either [although he appears to be doing better at WR, TE, and OL], and it remains to be seen whether he can get the job done--despite landing Thompson / MacFarlane / Cornelius, and potentially a Perkins / Morris / Lynch. [as an aside, I omit QB even though we have some prospects in the pipeline [Kinder, Hunt, Broyld] as I stopped being optimistic about our QBs about 10 recruits ago--I'll believe it when I see one of them actually pan out]

Edit: before Bees comes after me for taking a shot at GRob, I readily acknowledge that he was a nice guy and a class act. But he was a natural disaster of a head coach.