ACC, PAC-12, and BIG alliance / conference realignment

[Scooch]

So I was thinking what would be my ideal for a 10 team non FB conference. Looking at history and location, it would make the most sense for the 9 OG Big East teams to be together. But who would be #10?

Really of those OGs, SU and Pitt are the outsiders location wise. The rest all represent the Amtrak line. Yes, UConn is not on it but they represent the entire state and thus the two stops. But if you wanted #10 to be an Amtrak fit, it is had to find one.

It is kinda nuts that there isn't a school that really represents Baltimore. The closest fits are Towson or Loyola neither of which are worth adding. Maryland I suppose could but they would be ACC bound. The other Amtrak hole is Wilmington, which Delaware could fill. But like Towson/Loyola, Delaware is not worth adding.

You could double up in Philly, with Temple being the best choice. They do have some history with the others on the FB side. UMass would fit I suppose but they have no history. Same with DC area George Mason/Washington. Penn State is Northeastern but again no history in BBall. Which leaves Rutgers.

The Rutgers Big East history is awful, but they do have a history. There is no reason to double up in NJ, but it was fun taking that place over. And it sets up nice rivalry week games: Rutgers-Seton Hall, BC-PC, StJ-UConn, Nova-Pitt, Cuse-GTown.

Outside of the location fit there is also the history fit. But many of the former Big East teams really are location outsiders. The current 5 Western Big East teams don't fit. The three FB 2.0s don't fit location wise or culturally. Of the three FB 1.0s the best fit would be West Virginia, not really culturally though.

Location they are a decent fit. They have had success in the Big East for BBall. They have a rival (Pitt), but then screw up the other rivalries. Who gets Seton Hall? Where does Nova go?

Lastly there is Notre Dame. I think they would be better with the current 5 Western Big East, St Louis, Dayton, etc. And if you take them, who is their rival? BC? Put PC with Seton Hall?

So I think I would have #10 as 1. Rutgers, 2. West Virginia, 3. Notre Dame.

This sums up why it was always difficult to put together a northeastern all-sports conference.

Since the northeast private schools deemphasized football in the 1950s, there simply hasn't been enough high-level football schools in the region. The core has been SU, Penn State, Pitt and BC for 70+ years, and never much beyond that.

If those 4 had gotten together at some point many decades ago with, say, Rutgers, Temple, Army and Navy, the basketball would have been awful, and the football depth would have been terrible too.

The best outcome for the northeast would have been sport-specific leagues. Hockey East is the gold standard of that - a geographically logical conference that plays at the highest level of its sport.

The Big East of the 80s was perfect for hoops. Once it had to become a football league it was always bound to fall apart.

 

[TexanMark]

Seton Hall is a fun home game because we take it over. And it is a good arena. Providence not as much but still a good trip.

Providence and Seton Hall are interchangeable to me. However, Providence has Lacrosse. However, keeping it at 10 I don't see the room.

One thought, inviting Johns Hopkins as an associate member would be cool in lacrosse...however, I could see them heading to the IVY or Patriot too

 

[Bayside44]

Providence and Seton Hall are interchangeable to me. However, Providence has Lacrosse. However, keeping it at 10 I don't see the room.

One thought, inviting Johns Hopkins as an associate member would be cool in lacrosse...however, I could see them heading to the IVY or Patriot too

They're in the B1G for lax.

 

[Scooch]

They're in the B1G for lax.

I never understood why the ACC didn't offer them membership first. Would have given us the 6 necessary for an auto-bid, and it makes geographic sense.

 

[orange79]

I never understood why the ACC didn't offer them membership first. Would have given us the 6 necessary for an auto-bid, and it makes geographic sense.

I wish they had, too. But the men's teams in the ACC don't do associate members.

 

[Scooch]

I wish they had, too. But the men's teams in the ACC don't do associate members.

Ah yes, I often forget how terribly the ACC is run.

 

[longtimefan]

I wish they had, too. But the men's teams in the ACC don't do associate members.

As always, it takes 2 to tango--JHU and the CIC (or whatever they call it now) are a logical marriage. Hopkins was, at least until 2025, the #1 recipient of federal research dollars. The association with all of those huge Midwest research universities was hard to turn down. Academics, and federal $$$, still count.

 

[TexanMark]

They're in the B1G for lax.

I know...but the premise is geographically sensible leagues

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Providence and Seton Hall are interchangeable to me. However, Providence has Lacrosse. However, keeping it at 10 I don't see the room.

One thought, inviting Johns Hopkins as an associate member would be cool in lacrosse...however, I could see them heading to the IVY or Patriot too

I think Penn State would get chosen due to being the biggest school in the Northeast. But without FB they aren't much of a draw IMO. And an awful road trip.

I think your list is exactly right in what WOULD happen but not what I would want as a fan.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

This sums up why it was always difficult to put together a northeastern all-sports conference.

Since the northeast private schools deemphasized football in the 1950s, there simply hasn't been enough high-level football schools in the region. The core has been SU, Penn State, Pitt and BC for 70+ years, and never much beyond that.

If those 4 had gotten together at some point many decades ago with, say, Rutgers, Temple, Army and Navy, the basketball would have been awful, and the football depth would have been terrible too.

The best outcome for the northeast would have been sport-specific leagues. Hockey East is the gold standard of that - a geographically logical conference that plays at the highest level of its sport.

The Big East of the 80s was perfect for hoops. Once it had to become a football league it was always bound to fall apart.

Conference expansion would have always killed a Northeastern conference. Had going past 10 schools never happened, we could have had...

FB- Penn State, SU, BC, Pitt, WV, VA Tech, Temple, RU, Army, Navy

BBall (Army/Navy out) - 8 above + St Johns and Georgetown


Does that kill Nova and UConn BBall, if there never was a Big East? Both might have zero titles right now. They were pulled up by SU, St Johns, and Georgetown. I think those three have the same success either way.


If the above was our conference in 1980, what happens in 1990? I think the B1G still goes after Penn State but do they stop there instead of going to 12 and a conference championship game? They added Penn State only because of the Indy status in FB. If they were in a conference maybe the B1G takes a partner too. Which most likely would have been SU. Also at that point VA Tech never becomes VA Tech.

The chain reaction from not having a FB first Northeastern conference would have been something.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

If only “Ifs” and “buts” were candy and nuts, every day would be Christmas.

 

[Rufus_13th]

Seton Hall is a fun home game because we take it over. And it is a good arena. Providence not as much but still a good trip.

Ehh..Prudential Center in Newark has seen some better days.

Sight lines still great, and that jumbotron is massive. But audio, plumbing, food, access issues are accumulating.

They just got $300+M from a state grant to renovate it.

 

[Scooch]

Seton Hall and Providence being in a P5 hoops conference is an anachronism born from a completely different college athletics environment decades ago.

They're poster children for why football should be split off into its own thing.

 

[WoadBlue]

This sums up why it was always difficult to put together a northeastern all-sports conference.

Since the northeast private schools deemphasized football in the 1950s, there simply hasn't been enough high-level football schools in the region. The core has been SU, Penn State, Pitt and BC for 70+ years, and never much beyond that.

If those 4 had gotten together at some point many decades ago with, say, Rutgers, Temple, Army and Navy, the basketball would have been awful, and the football depth would have been terrible too.

The best outcome for the northeast would have been sport-specific leagues. Hockey East is the gold standard of that - a geographically logical conference that plays at the highest level of its sport.

The Big East of the 80s was perfect for hoops. Once it had to become a football league it was always bound to fall apart.

The 1950s was the last time a truly northeastern states, and only northeastern states, league would have bene founded and been successful. WVU is nit in a northeastern state. So the 4 you name have been it in those states since the 1950s.

If those 4 in the early 1970s had founded a league and seen the cards laying out the future and then added schools located in the South and the Midwest, over that era of CFB expansion in TV fans it could have become established very well. But even in the 1980s I think doing that would have been too late.

Paterno discerned part of that but his NYC born and Ivy League trained biases against the South were far too strong for him to see any farther than Morgantown. So there was no way that Paterno ever would have acted to lead the northeastern 4 into the ACC as a group. And the simple fact is that to make that quartet worth a nice chunk of change requires PSU in the mix.

 

[WoadBlue]

I know...but the premise is geographically sensible leagues

Never happen again in Top Tier revenue sports.

For me the funny thing is hardline NFL fans making a big deal about it. Dallas in the NFC East? Weren't Atlanta and New Orleans both in the NFC West for decades?

How about MLB. ET Cincy and Atlanta in the NL West while CT Cubs and Cards in NL East.

 

[Hoo's That]

Providence and Seton Hall are interchangeable to me. However, Providence has Lacrosse. However, keeping it at 10 I don't see the room.

One thought, inviting Johns Hopkins as an associate member would be cool in lacrosse...however, I could see them heading to the IVY or Patriot too

Maryland is JHU's rival. The Terps are the only other team that affects JHU's decisions on what to do. SU and UVa are teams they "want to play only once a season."

They would go to whichever Olympic sports-only conference which took in Maryland and offered them associate membership in lacrosse. I don't think the Ivy is an option they would like if they are not offered associate membership in Maryland's conference because of the Ivy's "no red shirts" rule.

 

[HtownOrange]

One thought, inviting Johns Hopkins as an associate member would be cool in lacrosse...however, I could see them heading to the IVY or Patriot too

One of the dumbest things to do while trying to grow a sport is to refuse associate members. For all of the intelligence at teh ACC Schools, they miss the mark on this point. All schools have to do this when their conference does not sponsor a sport.

 

[ImperialOrange]

It works in most European countries. In each league/division you play everyone home-and-home.

The larger European countries have a top league of 18 or 20 teams. Some smaller countries are 12-16.
In most countries, the top 2 (or 3) leagues are professional with lower leagues being primarily at an amateur level.

I just don't see this format working out for US college league sports.
We've got FBS & FCS for football with some schools recently making the move up to FBS, but those were strictly on the school's financial front... committing more $$ to football investments (player pay, facilities, etc.).

You could mimic relegation in college IF you tied in smaller regional schools and conferences. BC went 2-10 last season, give 12-1 Lehigh their ACC spot and BC can play Patriot league.

Minor league pro football could work too as it would actually matter.

That said, European leagues don't have the travel issues that US leagues have nor tax payer funded stadiums that need to stay full.

Was amazing watching Bayern play at Greuther Furth a few years back though. Imagine the Patriots playing at a Massachusetts high school stadium.

 

[phreddie]

It's so funny watching people thinking lacrosse matters.

 

[CU44SE]

As expected. Ross Dellenger just reported the Big10 and SEC sent reports to congressional lawmakers taking aim at the thought of consolidating media rights.

SEC and Big 10 are against the concept, they wish to preserve the current advantageous framework.

As I have continuously said. The Big 10 and SEC will never sign up for an even playing field. Not only that, but this would take money away from the schools and the conferences. Too many mouths to feed.

 

[richmondcuse03]

As expected. Ross Dellenger just reported the Big10 and SEC sent reports to congressional lawmakers taking aim at the thought of consolidating media rights.

SEC and Big 10 are against the concept, they wish to preserve the current advantageous framework.

As I have continuously said. The Big 10 and SEC will never sign up for an even playing field. Not only that, but this would take money away from the schools and the conferences. Too many mouths to feed.

Paging Scooch - what do you think of their arguments?

 

[FloridaCuse]

SEC, Big Ten study: Pooling TV rights 'dangerously unworkable'

A study commissioned by the SEC and the Big Ten concluded that allowing conferences to pool their media rights would generate less revenue than if the leagues continue the decades-old practice of selling their own games.

www.espn.com

 

[Oakland]

Relegation is a concept totally alien to American sports and for good reason. It is totally beyond me how fans of soccer, the primary culprit, can enjoy yoyoing from division to division. Be the top dog in a lower division, get elevated, smashed to smithereens in the upper division the next season, and sent back to the lower division. Rinse. Repeat. Curse you Ted Lasso! Nobody talked about this idea before that show.

And yet, every BB team wants to play in the NCAA and not the NIT.

 

[javadoc]

Paging Scooch - what do you think of their arguments?

Not Scooch, but they can both take a flying leap. I am quite looking forward to the day that they are under the boot.

 

[HtownOrange]

SEC, Big Ten study: Pooling TV rights 'dangerously unworkable'

A study commissioned by the SEC and the Big Ten concluded that allowing conferences to pool their media rights would generate less revenue than if the leagues continue the decades-old practice of selling their own games.

www.espn.com

From the B1G and SEC perspectives (and likely the ACC and Big12, too) this may be accurate. Specifically, they get the lion's share of the TV rights and the rights payments keep increasing. My guess is that the broadcasters are making far more money than they let on. The entertainment industry has employed the best tax accountants and attorneys for the past century, making blockbuster movies look like failures to the IRS. ESPN routinely cries poverty and comes through with increases that far exceed inflation. If the SEC and B1G share revenue now, they cannot capitalize on the disparity between the upper and middle/lower classes. (The ACC and Big 12 are probably upper-middle class in this scenario). By keeping the lion's share, the SEC and B1G will continue to take the lion's share while the ACC and Big 12 still collect a very healthy payday, in comparison to the others.

The claim that the pool of 136 schools is unmanageable is nonsense. The broadcasters and streamers handle this already and across many sports, thus disproving the myth spewed by the "study." This claim is a red herring to distract everyone from seeing what the study was truly intended to do: Justify keeping the conferences separated to allow the biggest money to go to the B1G and SEC.

The argument about the conferences earning more as independent from each other is somewhat true. The real issue of old was that the broadcasters were simply robbing every school. Decades later, they still are, just not quite as significant a profit margin. Plus, they will only continue to get the largest increases if there is separation of the conferences.