ACC, PAC-12, and BIG alliance / conference realignment

[JimBoston]

I don't think the issue is challenging the GORs as I would think they would be tough. This is about dissolving the conference to cancel the GORs. It doesn't seem anybody actually knows how many schools are required to vote to dissolve the ACC. Is it a majority? Is it 60%? Is it 75%? I'm thinking the M7 are focused on how many votes to dissolve the conference.

As for ESPN, they are looking to reduce costs. Four schools going to the SEC, 4 schools to the Big 10, and 2 schools to the Big 12 would reduce ESPN's costs and increase the number of good matchups in the SEC and Big 12. The 4 schools leaving for the Big 10 would cost ESPN zero as FOX has the Big 10 rights and 4 schools would have to figure out a new conference which also reduces ESPN's costs. Notre Dame would continue doing what ND does, look out for itself.

The bottom line is that it seems the ACC as it is constituted now will not exist in a range of 2 to 13 years. What is Syracuse's plan?

 

[elimunelson]

I don't think the issue is challenging the GORs as I would think they would be tough. This is about dissolving the conference to cancel the GORs. It doesn't seem anybody actually knows how many schools are required to vote to dissolve the ACC. Is it a majority? Is it 60%? Is it 75%? I'm thinking the M7 are focused on how many votes to dissolve the conference.

As for ESPN, they are looking to reduce costs. Four schools going to the SEC, 4 schools to the Big 10, and 2 schools to the Big 12 would reduce ESPN's costs and increase the number of good matchups in the SEC and Big 12. The 4 schools leaving for the Big 10 would cost ESPN zero as FOX has the Big 10 rights and 4 schools would have to figure out a new conference which also reduces ESPN's costs. Notre Dame would continue doing what ND does, look out for itself.

The bottom line is that it seems the ACC as it is constituted now will not exist in a range of 2 to 13 years. What is Syracuse's plan?

Big east hoops is our future. Where those schools go or if we go to them is the key.

Football is a hobo and other hobos will find us and figure out a confederation. That will resolve around a tacit ND independence. Maybe they’ll call the conference “the independence” and play for the lambert

 

[HRE Otto IV]

I don't think the issue is challenging the GORs as I would think they would be tough. This is about dissolving the conference to cancel the GORs. It doesn't seem anybody actually knows how many schools are required to vote to dissolve the ACC. Is it a majority? Is it 60%? Is it 75%? I'm thinking the M7 are focused on how many votes to dissolve the conference.

As for ESPN, they are looking to reduce costs. Four schools going to the SEC, 4 schools to the Big 10, and 2 schools to the Big 12 would reduce ESPN's costs and increase the number of good matchups in the SEC and Big 12. The 4 schools leaving for the Big 10 would cost ESPN zero as FOX has the Big 10 rights and 4 schools would have to figure out a new conference which also reduces ESPN's costs. Notre Dame would continue doing what ND does, look out for itself.

The bottom line is that it seems the ACC as it is constituted now will not exist in a range of 2 to 13 years. What is Syracuse's plan?

Yes costs go down but so does revenue. UNC, UVA, Miami, GA Tech are a net positive for ESPN. Why let that go walk to Fox?

Does Notre Dame get a vote? Even if they do not, there is no way 8 of 14 can dissolve the ACC. At the very least it will be 9 (assuming ND does not vote). But it is more likely to be 10.

Think about it... when the ACC expanded from 9, they needed 7 teams to agree. A two thirds majority was not enough, which is why we did not make it the first go around. So why would dissolving the conference be any different? Which means they are going to need 10 of 14 to vote for the ACC to go away (or 11 if ND gets a vote).

 

[elimunelson]

I blame buzz and JC for the lack of investment in athletics and facilities in the late 1990’s and 2000’s, Nancy just sucks so she will always get blame from me and DG made the terrible football hire

yeah you can blame them for physical plant issues and decay in the suad. i don't to the extent others do because our success was a function of good coaching, a somewhat modern facility-dome, and a history. we were not that far from our peers in facilities and investments (bc, pitt, wvu)

however, ultimately in 2023 we would be in the same spot if phil knight underwrote the entire operation since 1995. after all oregon may be on the outside looking in too.

 

[JimBoston]

Yes costs go down but so does revenue. UNC, UVA, Miami, GA Tech are a net positive for ESPN. Why let that go walk to Fox?

Does Notre Dame get a vote? Even if they do not, there is no way 8 of 14 can dissolve the ACC. At the very least it will be 9 (assuming ND does not vote). But it is more likely to be 10.

Think about it... when the ACC expanded from 9, they needed 7 teams to agree. A two thirds majority was not enough, which is why we did not make it the first go around. So why would dissolving the conference be any different? Which means they are going to need 10 of 14 to vote for the ACC to go away (or 11 if ND gets a vote).

I don’t disagree with you, but we don’t know the actual number and can only speculate.

 

[HtownOrange]

Superb post. The 4 schools that left GOR conferences had access to a lot of high-powered (and -priced) lawyers but none chose to challenge GOR in court. That should tell people something if they're willing to listen. The only way schools get out of the ACC GOR before 2036 is for the ACC to vote to dissolve.

I’m not sure a dissolution would work as the ACC and ESPN are the beneficiaries of the rights.

The only two ways out at this point that are guaranteed to work are time (let the GOR run out) and quit playing sports.

We saw OU and UT negotiate but it was only successful as it was beneficial to the remaining teams and they still received more than double the annual revenue. Recall OU and UT wanted to leave earlier, attempted to negotiate a way out and it was not feasible. The second attempt worked because the Big12 GOR was only in place for one more year, the Big12 already had the replacements coming in, and scheduling for one screwball season was not worth the hassle if a deal could be negotiated. It still cost OU and UT far more than one year’s revenue,

I think it is possible that the ACC teams could attempt a similar exit strategy but the ACC has the small poison pill in that they have an exit fee and loss of revenue. but if the ACC is not close, some teams may take the hit to guarantee a seat in the new conference. I would not expect this to happen until near the end of the GOR.

I still believe ESPN has no interest in shutting down the ACC, there is too much revenue and profit from north of the Carolinas to just walk away. Also, I think ESPN would still like to save a few bucks and not fold the ACC into the SEC. To accomplish this, ESPN must kepp the ACC close to SEC and B1G in annual per team payouts.

I am cautious to fall into the trap that the SEC and B1G are the only players. Leaving out the other conferences, individual teams, networks (including streamers) and the fans is a recipe for futility.

What is your opinion? (You know the ACC better than most of us) What are the opinions of others?

 

[HtownOrange]

Lotta solid truth in this whole post, almost none of which the CFB media pushes back upon. All these writers simply talk to the same 2-3 ADs in the B1G and SEC, who tell them, "hey, if you don't believe me, call my buddy at this school, he know what happening too."

Well, no craP, you two are colluding together, playing your fun game of shadow commissioner because they did not get chosen to replace Kevin Warren and want their $150,000 attendance bonus to kick in in 2025! None of the talented CFB writers gets anything (or precious little) from an actual GOR lawyer, or an ESPN source, or cites a source from a school (like SU/Pitt/BC for instance or Iowa State, Stanford, etc.) that knows things are a little more secure/steady than are portrayed. At least for the next 6-8 years. I mean, you can mark your calendar for this time next year, first 10-15 days of May, someone is going to write that the GOR could be broken and that the B1G is going to invited UNC, Duke and the Carolina Panthers to the B1G because they want to migrate south like the rest of the nation. Oh, and that the B1G has such great admiration for Georgia Tech's academics and the notion of planting a flag in the heart of the South gets them aroused. (Stankey assumes the fatal position -- NOT!).

Think about it, ... all of a sudden Auburn is going to play 12-13 straight tough/legit superconference games every year? Right now, many SEC teams (and a few B1G too) do anything they can to work around the "must play at least one P5 game annually" rule. They all swap Charleston Southern around annually like a tray of Hors d'Oeuvres so that they are well rested heading into rivalry week at the end of November. Hell, the B1G broke off its scheduling alliance with the Pac 12 a few years back because it was too hard. And now they want to mimic the gauntlet that is the AFC North? Would that not risk their precious job security?

And, because we are collectively better than this on the Syracuse board, ... can we please, please(!) stop with the Duke-to-the-Ivy League drivel, where their lax fits so well and the football program can complete? I mean, talk about amateur hour. #BeBetterIfYou'reOrange

I think the B1G is attempting to drop the P5 game requirement.

 

[HtownOrange]

A court is not going to rule for a school that has 1 or 2 years left in a GOR. If a school argues that staying in a GOR for another 12 years is going to do it serious harm, the court may well consider that.

I think you are wrong, the legal reasoning must be sound and applied with indifference to the time frame.

Business decisions can be made as you describe, but ciurt decisions will be overturned on appeal if they are not legally sound.

I do get your point, and teams can make arguments showing harm, but in the end, the court will rule based in law. Also, if it were easy, the GOR would already have been attacked in court.

 

[Cusefan69]

Another speculative comment but I would be extremely surprised in this world of the threat of league jumping and bullet proof Gors that there would not be significant language around dissolving a multi billion dollar worth league. The attorneys for the ACC probably also added "belts and suspenders " around that language and any would be process when it was last opened. I would not bet the rent on dissolution being viable here. I am not suggesting impossible but I am suggesting the likely path required would be intentionally built such to make it unlikely.

 

[HtownOrange]

This is the mindset that has killed SU for 2 decades. Putting their arms in the air and saying "Nothing we can do'. No, there is...have some standards for the football program and build it up so its an attractive property that others want.

It's really not that hard.

You make a fair point regarding what SU can do. I think they have done it, I think they include many intrinsic items as well as extrinsic items in their decision chart.

 

[orangecuse]

I think you are wrong, the legal reasoning must be sound and applied with indifference to the time frame.

Business decisions can be made as you describe, but ciurt decisions will be overturned on appeal if they are not legally sound.

I do get your point, and teams can make arguments showing harm, but in the end, the court will rule based in law. Also, if it were easy, the GOR would already have been attacked in court.

I think a possible legal angle, at least in regards to the state, public institutions, could be the GOR is against public policy. And, because of the evolution/changed landscape, etc., is not (no longer) in the best interest of the public community, its constituents, taxpayers, etc. that it mainly serves, along with it being a detriment to future (revenue & non revenue type programs, etc.) it may no longer be able to provide as a result.

Any contract that is against public policy is deemed null and void.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

I don’t disagree with you, but we don’t know the actual number and can only speculate.

Agree we can only speculate. But taking a logical guess it will be 10 or 11 without ND counting and might even be 12 with ND. It most certainly is not 8. That is just kook rumor.

 

[David321]

What's to stop the SEC from creating a bunch of punching bag teams that have little to no affiliation with a college? If it's no longer about academics and it's semipro, who says they don't round up a bunch of middle aged men at the Y and pay them handsomely to get killed in an annual game?

There would be a line out the door of out-of-work and out-of-shape men begging for a chance to be on one of these punching bag teams. The media attention alone on these "Rocky Balboas" would generate a revenue stream.

I think we just jumped the shark, lol.

 

[CousCuse]

I think you are wrong, the legal reasoning must be sound and applied with indifference to the time frame.

Business decisions can be made as you describe, but ciurt decisions will be overturned on appeal if they are not legally sound.

I do get your point, and teams can make arguments showing harm, but in the end, the court will rule based in law. Also, if it were easy, the GOR would already have been attacked in court.

This issue didn't rise to the point of being highly contentious until the B1G and the SEC signed their huge media contracts. There probably is an effort going on to resolve it in some form short of lawsuits. If the teams that are going to get into the P2 agree to compensate the teams that remain to the level of the current contract for its duration, that would be equitable.

 

[kcsu]

I think a possible legal angle, at least in regards to the state, public institutions, could be the GOR is against public policy. And, because of the evolution/changed landscape, etc., is not (no longer) in the best interest of the public community, its constituents, taxpayers, etc. that it mainly serves, along with it being a detriment to future (revenue & non revenue type programs, etc.) it may no longer be able to provide as a result.

Any contract that is against public policy is deemed null and void.

Thats crap

 

[IthacaBarrel]

I think we just jumped the shark, lol.

twice.

 

[David321]

FSU is definitely itching to get out

 

[Chip]

Still don't get the Miami thing. IT's been a long long time since they've mattered.

Not since 2003.

Since then they've been in the final Top 25 6 out of 18 seasons. Fired 5 head coaches. Have no true home stadium, and very few traveling fans.

But the good times were so good, it will apparently carry them forever.

 

[kcsu]

FSU is definitely itching to get out

Maybe this year they wont get their arses handed to them

 

[Chip]

Maybe this year they wont get their arses handed to them

Didn't FSU beat LSU on Labor Day weekend last year?

 

[David321]

Maybe this year they wont get their arses handed to them

Should be a good game tbh.

 

[HtownOrange]

I think a possible legal angle, at least in regards to the state, public institutions, could be the GOR is against public policy. And, because of the evolution/changed landscape, etc., is not (no longer) in the best interest of the public community, its constituents, taxpayers, etc. that it mainly serves, along with it being a detriment to future (revenue & non revenue type programs, etc.) it may no longer be able to provide as a result.

Any contract that is against public policy is deemed null and void.

I agree it is a possibility, though actions to date indicate that the lawyers and schools do not think this is a valid argument at this time.

At this time, the public policy argument likely lacks sufficient substance (change in law, etc.) to overcome the right to contract which brings in the duty to complete the contract.

 

[HtownOrange]

This issue didn't rise to the point of being highly contentious until the B1G and the SEC signed their huge media contracts. There probably is an effort going on to resolve it in some form short of lawsuits. If the teams that are going to get into the P2 agree to compensate the teams that remain to the level of the current contract for its duration, that would be equitable.

Parties have a right to contract, contracts are generally presumed valid. Bad deals, even when not known at the time of making the contract remain valid.

Recall that the Dome was named “Carrier”, which was deemed a brilliant move at the time. Fast forward 35-40 years and the deal was less impressive. SU and Carrier had to negotiate a settlement. SU was not taking the issue to court as it was a losing issue.

 

[Toga]

I posted this awhile ago but for anyone interested in reading a 62 page report from Harvard Law School on Grant of Rights - have at it.

https://harvardjsel.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2017/01/Wilhelm.pdf

 

[JimBoston]

Agree we can only speculate. But taking a logical guess it will be 10 or 11 without ND counting and might even be 12 with ND. It most certainly is not 8. That is just kook rumor.

I'm going to preface this post by saying I do not know what the ACC corporate by-laws say or if they are incorporated in and/or governed by the laws of North Carolina. Here is the general statute as it relates to dissolving a corporation in North Carolina:

§ 55A‑14‑02.� Dissolution by directors, members, and third persons.

(a)������ Unless this Chapter, the articles of incorporation, bylaws, or the board of directors or members (acting pursuant to subsection (c) of this section) require a greater vote or voting by class, dissolution is authorized if a plan of dissolution meeting the requirements of G.S. 55A‑14‑03 is approved:

(1)������ By the board;

(2)������ By the members entitled to vote thereon, if any, by two‑thirds of the votes cast or a majority of the votes entitled to be cast on the plan of dissolution, whichever is less; and

(3)������ In writing by any person or persons whose approval is required by a provision of the articles of incorporation authorized by G.S. 55A‑10‑30 for an amendment to the articles of incorporation or bylaws.

2005 North Carolina Code - :: General Statutes Article 14 - Dissolution..

So, it would seem that a North Carolina corporation (point 2 above) can be dissolved by 2/3 of the votes cast or a majority of the votes entitled to be cast on the plan. That would seem to say that the majority of the members of a corporation can dissolve the corporation.

People have focused on getting out of GORs, but dissolving the corporation may be the way around the GORs. The reason why this approach couldn't work in the Big 12 is only 2 schools wanted to leave.