ACC, PAC-12, and BIG alliance / conference realignment

[qdawgg]

Yeah, it's not like his livelihood depends on the ACC. Gutting or dissolving of the ACC wouldn't affect his ability to put food on the table for his family or anything.

Yeah because there are no other jobs in the world or conferences he could cover in the future.

#trollingforfun

 

[Chris02M]

Bigten and NBC still have not been able to finalize this agreement because of mistake by the then commish

How an unfinished TV deal led to an unexpectedly hectic first month for the new Big Ten commissioner

New Big Ten commissioner Tony Petitti has been sprinting to finish his league's massive TV deal -- and key athletic directors and coaches aren't happy with the details.

redirect.viglink.com

 

[hoopsupstate]

Bigten and NBC still have not been able to finalize this agreement because of mistake by the then commish

How an unfinished TV deal led to an unexpectedly hectic first month for the new Big Ten commissioner

New Big Ten commissioner Tony Petitti has been sprinting to finish his league's massive TV deal -- and key athletic directors and coaches aren't happy with the details.

redirect.viglink.com

Sounds like their huge deal is not what they thought it was. Looks like Warren screwed some people as he left as commissioner. It’s so sad they are probably going to lose millions of dollars they thought they were going to get. Greedy bastards!

 

[OrangeXtreme]

 

[HRE Otto IV]

I think the Big 12 is thinking big. I think they would consider an eastern division that included Syracuse, UConn, Pitt, Louisville, WVU, Cincy, UCF, and Pitt.

You can't have a division that big and play the entire conference enough that the networks would be happy. The appeal of a national conference is having an increase in intersectional games. If we are playing 7 games in division, that leaves 2 games to play the other 16 teams in conference. So we would be playing teams once every 8 years and once every 16 years in the Dome.

On top of that Louisville and Cincy aren't really Eastern, and UCF we have no history with. Don't see the appeal as an SU fan.

 

[All4SU]

When trying to analyze a fluid situation like this, where various actors are frequently less than forthcoming about their genuine intentions, it’s always good to identify the things we know as well as the things we may not know.

Things we know:
1) The game is more entertaining for fans if conferences are constructed around traditional rivals.
2) Conferences operate most smoothly when there are 9 teams in a conference, allowing for full play in football, and home/home in basketball.
3) Parity builds fan interest.
4) TV craves big match-up games.
5) Team fortunes rise and fall over years. What is true today is not likely to be true in 5 years.
6) Football not only drives the bus, football IS the bus. Basketball rides.

Things we may not know:
1) How big do the SEC and B1G really want to be?
2) What will fans do if those two conferences dominate the landscape and leave 2/3 of the country out of the picture?
3) Given the state of the portal and NIL, will players unionize? Will academics still even be part of the equation? Can other schools sue for monopolistic practices and restraint of fair competition?
4) Will networks simply abandon major markets in favor of two dominant conferences?
5) How much money is enough?

 

[HRE Otto IV]

When trying to analyze a fluid situation like this, where various actors are frequently less than forthcoming about their genuine intentions, it’s always good to identify the things we know as well as the things we may not know.

Things we know:
1) The game is more entertaining for fans if conferences are constructed around traditional rivals.
2) Conferences operate most smoothly when there are 9 teams in a conference, allowing for full play in football, and home/home in basketball.
3) Parity builds fan interest.
4) TV craves big match-up games.
5) Team fortunes rise and fall over years. What is true today is not likely to be true in 5 years.
6) Football not only drives the bus, football IS the bus. Basketball rides.

Things we may not know:
1) How big do the SEC and B1G really want to be?
2) What will fans do if those two conferences dominate the landscape and leave 2/3 of the country out of the picture?
3) Given the state of the portal and NIL, will players unionize? Will academics still even be part of the equation? Can other schools sue for monopolistic practices and restraint of fair competition?
4) Will networks simply abandon major markets in favor of two dominant conferences?
5) How much money is enough?

For #1, #2, and #4 I think the bigger the conferences are the more those concerns go away. A 24+ B16 and SEC would cover the entire country and every market. With divisions or pods you can keep regional rivalries.

For #3 and #5 I think that will be something that the left behinds have to really evaluate. What is more important maximizing income or maximizing your record? Do you want to go all in with NIL and be in the 3rd best national conference? Or do you want to be with like minded schools in the 4th best conference and actually care about academics? Should SU get left behind I really hope that we chose the latter. And that is coming from someone who is an SU FB fan first.

 

[upperdeck]

espn + doesnt really do much unless you want to watch olympic sports

if you think that you just dont watch sports.. tons of stuff on espn+ with hockey.lax/bball across several leagues and then many other sports as well.

 

[shantydaze]

. . . AAU is less of a problem than the internet rumor that started 15-20 years ago. . . .

It is more than an internet rumor, but less than a requirement. IIRC, former Commissioner, Jim Delany, said as much at one point. Specifically, that AAU membership is preferred for potential B1G expansion candidates, but if a school brought other intangibles and benefits to the conference (hint: Notre Dame), lack of AAU membership would not restrict a school's ability to join the conference. So, technically, while not a requirement, I doubt there are many schools that are "special" enough to warrant an invite without AAU membership and it might only be ND.

Also, I cannot speak for all B1G alumni, but for those that I have spoken to, academic reputation is more important than football prowess when considering expansion. Things like AAU status matters and if it matters to deep pocketed alums, it matters to university presidents.

 

[orangenauburn]

It is more than an internet rumor, but less than a requirement. IIRC, former Commissioner, Jim Delany, said as much at one point. Specifically, that AAU membership is preferred for potential B1G expansion candidates, but if a school brought other intangibles and benefits to the conference (hint: Notre Dame), lack of AAU membership would not restrict a school's ability to join the conference. So, technically, while not a requirement, I doubt there are many schools that are "special" enough to warrant an invite without AAU membership and it might only be ND.

Also, I cannot speak for all B1G alumni, but for those that I have spoken to, academic reputation is more important than football prowess when considering expansion. Things like AAU status matters and if it matters to deep pocketed alums, it matters to university presidents.

Well it's a good thing we don't have that hanging over our heads any more ...

Was it Nancy who let it lapse?

Edit. We were getting the boot anyways

Syracuse University pulls out of research consortium because new criteria doesn't match school's strengths

The Chronicle of Higher Education reported Monday that SU pulled out of the AAU before it was kicked out.

www.syracuse.com

Read Professor Rubinstein comments

SU’s withdrawal from the AAU is unlikely to have short-term effects, said Robert Rubinstein, a professor of anthropology at SU’s Maxwell school and a member of the university senate’s research committee.

“I think the benefits of being in the AAU are largely reputational,” Rubinstein said. “Anything that gets a boost from having a reputation for leadership will probably be affected, but it doesn’t affect the day-to-day lives of faculty members.”

 

[HRE Otto IV]

It is more than an internet rumor, but less than a requirement. IIRC, former Commissioner, Jim Delany, said as much at one point. Specifically, that AAU membership is preferred for potential B1G expansion candidates, but if a school brought other intangibles and benefits to the conference (hint: Notre Dame), lack of AAU membership would not restrict a school's ability to join the conference. So, technically, while not a requirement, I doubt there are many schools that are "special" enough to warrant an invite without AAU membership and it might only be ND.

Also, I cannot speak for all B1G alumni, but for those that I have spoken to, academic reputation is more important than football prowess when considering expansion. Things like AAU status matters and if it matters to deep pocketed alums, it matters to university presidents.

I agree that the academic fit is important to their decision. But they did make the exception for Nebraska, who everyone knew was losing AAU status. In hindsight that was an awful add by the B16. Really a head scratcher. Besides ND, I think they would make an exception to get into Texas and Florida. I don't think SU is high on their list, but the B16 IMO would put more weight behind Maxwell and Newhouse than they would our AAU status.

 

[suorange08]

espn + doesnt really do much unless you want to watch olympic sports

If you're an NHL fan then they have every game broadcast (outside of NBC, TBS, or TNT) during the regular season. My kids love it.

 

[suorange08]

Or European football/soccer games. I have a few times.
Also handy to watch the first round of the women's lax championship.
Fortunately, I get it for free (reimbursed).

YouTubeTV carries all of the ESPN channels + ACCN + SECN. I doubt it'll be dropped.
If it does, my YouTubeTV subscription cost should come down, though not as much as the ESPN package that I'd like (all ESPN channels + ACCN + SECN + ACCN+, etc.).

We're not interested in the Disney & Hulu bundles... unless Hulu were to include our other favorites from YouTubeTV (including local TV).

Hulu with Live TV has those channels and local TV, plus Hulu, Disney+, and ESPN+ included. It's what we use and we're happy with it.

 

[HouClone]

If you don't have a tie-in with a medical school, your days of an AAU are numbered. Government research has greatly shifted the past 15 years to medical versus agricultural, etc. It is unclear how some schools get that tie-in. Nebraska couldn't claim the medical school anymore as it wasn't "on campus". But I believe Penn State's is not on campus.

 

[Cuse'91]

If you don't have a tie-in with a medical school, your days of an AAU are numbered. Government research has greatly shifted the past 15 years to medical versus agricultural, etc. It is unclear how some schools get that tie-in. Nebraska couldn't claim the medical school anymore as it wasn't "on campus". But I believe Penn State's is not on campus.

Cornell's medical school is definitely not on its Ithaca campus.

 

[longtimefan]

If you don't have a tie-in with a medical school, your days of an AAU are numbered. Government research has greatly shifted the past 15 years to medical versus agricultural, etc. It is unclear how some schools get that tie-in. Nebraska couldn't claim the medical school anymore as it wasn't "on campus". But I believe Penn State's is not on campus.

The medical school angle is probably the largest reason SU is no longer AAU. They sold their medical school to New York State in the early '60's. Eventually, that caught up to SU. The story is they were about to be booted out of the AAU when the decision was made to leave "voluntarily".

 

[HRE Otto IV]

I thought for awhile that the ACC should have added UCF. And to a lessor extent Cincy. They would not have increased the ACC payout but supposedly they would not have taken away from the payout. The main reason to add them is stability. Now that they are headed to the B12, the ACC is left having weak potential replacements should they lose schools. Now the B12 is better positioned going forward. If there was no risk short term, and adding them helped long term, shouldn't the ACC have pulled the trigger?

In hindsight the same thing happened with Rutgers. Had the ACC grabbed them, does the B16 take Maryland still? Who is the 2nd team? Both might be in the ACC right now.

And I think the same thing is about to happen with UConn. For the long term ACC, I think adding UConn is a smart thing. They don't move the needle short term, but losing them to the B12 shouldn't be an option.

The B12 commish seems to think that BBall is under valued. If that is the case why not kill off the Big East which creates less TV $ competition and makes the ACC the only Eastern BBall league of note. Take UConn all sports, and Georgetown/Nova/St Johns for non FB. You can play everyone once in BBall plus two rivals a 2nd time. Wouldn't that create a slight bump from ESPN?

Then convince ND to agree to a 6th FB game. That allows everyone to play both home and away over 5 years (better than the current 6 years). That extra game gives ESPN control over 3 ND games per year. That has to give a slight bump.

I think doing both of the above would keep the ACC a clear #3 and make it less likely for B12 defections.

 

[Chris02M]

I thought for awhile that the ACC should have added UCF. And to a lessor extent Cincy. They would not have increased the ACC payout but supposedly they would not have taken away from the payout. The main reason to add them is stability. Now that they are headed to the B12, the ACC is left having weak potential replacements should they lose schools. Now the B12 is better positioned going forward. If there was no risk short term, and adding them helped long term, shouldn't the ACC have pulled the trigger?

In hindsight the same thing happened with Rutgers. Had the ACC grabbed them, does the B16 take Maryland still? Who is the 2nd team? Both might be in the ACC right now.

And I think the same thing is about to happen with UConn. For the long term ACC, I think adding UConn is a smart thing. They don't move the needle short term, but losing them to the B12 shouldn't be an option.

The B12 commish seems to think that BBall is under valued. If that is the case why not kill off the Big East which creates less TV $ competition and makes the ACC the only Eastern BBall league of note. Take UConn all sports, and Georgetown/Nova/St Johns for non FB. You can play everyone once in BBall plus two rivals a 2nd time. Wouldn't that create a slight bump from ESPN?

Then convince ND to agree to a 6th FB game. That allows everyone to play both home and away over 5 years (better than the current 6 years). That extra game gives ESPN control over 3 ND games per year. That has to give a slight bump.

I think doing both of the above would keep the ACC a clear #3 and make it less likely for B12 defections.

big 12 being better positioned is debatable

 

[Chris02M]

If you're an NHL fan then they have every game broadcast (outside of NBC, TBS, or TNT) during the regular season. My kids love it.

im not

 

[HtownOrange]

Bigten and NBC still have not been able to finalize this agreement because of mistake by the then commish

How an unfinished TV deal led to an unexpectedly hectic first month for the new Big Ten commissioner

New Big Ten commissioner Tony Petitti has been sprinting to finish his league's massive TV deal -- and key athletic directors and coaches aren't happy with the details.

redirect.viglink.com

Oops! Details matter.

The following from the article:

• They are going to have to pay back nearly $40 million to Fox because, according to sources, Warren delivered NBC the Big Ten football title game in 2026 without the full authority to do so. This all has unfolded under the complicated backdrop of the Big Ten conference not actually controlling the rights to the inventory of this latest deal -- the Big Ten Network does, which is majority owned by Fox. (More on that below.)
• They are going to have to pay $25 million total for a deal to pay Fox back for lost 2020 football game inventory. This came after an arrangement between Fox and the conference that was unable to muster the lost revenue from the COVID-19 season.
• There's tens of millions of dollars of value of the NBC primetime deal in flux, as Petitti has been racing to ensure it keeps as much of its original value as possible. Historically in the Big Ten, after the first weekend in November, schools were not required to play night games for myriad reasons -- health, recovery and campus logistics among them. These were known in league circles as "tolerances," and prior television contracts accounted for them.

Readers should note that the networks have a lot of power the internet talkers simply ignore. This supports the concept that unless ESPN agrees to team s leaving of breaking up the ACC/GOR, it probably won't happen.

 

[HtownOrange]

It is more than an internet rumor, but less than a requirement. IIRC, former Commissioner, Jim Delany, said as much at one point. Specifically, that AAU membership is preferred for potential B1G expansion candidates, but if a school brought other intangibles and benefits to the conference (hint: Notre Dame), lack of AAU membership would not restrict a school's ability to join the conference. So, technically, while not a requirement, I doubt there are many schools that are "special" enough to warrant an invite without AAU membership and it might only be ND.

Also, I cannot speak for all B1G alumni, but for those that I have spoken to, academic reputation is more important than football prowess when considering expansion. Things like AAU status matters and if it matters to deep pocketed alums, it matters to university presidents.

The idea of Oregon (U.S. News ranking 105) stepping over many, many more academically qualified schools kind of destroys the academic reputation angle. I agree, many B1G grads I know/have known are proud of the general academic reputation, but accepting UNL and now pursing Oregon seems to lessen the impact academic reputation plays in B1G decisions.

SU is non-AAU and was on the B1G target list and ahead of Rutgers. Clearly ND would be an exception to the AAU.

 

[javadoc]

Oops! Details matter.

The following from the article:

• They are going to have to pay back nearly $40 million to Fox because, according to sources, Warren delivered NBC the Big Ten football title game in 2026 without the full authority to do so. This all has unfolded under the complicated backdrop of the Big Ten conference not actually controlling the rights to the inventory of this latest deal -- the Big Ten Network does, which is majority owned by Fox. (More on that below.)
• They are going to have to pay $25 million total for a deal to pay Fox back for lost 2020 football game inventory. This came after an arrangement between Fox and the conference that was unable to muster the lost revenue from the COVID-19 season.
• There's tens of millions of dollars of value of the NBC primetime deal in flux, as Petitti has been racing to ensure it keeps as much of its original value as possible. Historically in the Big Ten, after the first weekend in November, schools were not required to play night games for myriad reasons -- health, recovery and campus logistics among them. These were known in league circles as "tolerances," and prior television contracts accounted for them.

Readers should note that the networks have a lot of power the internet talkers simply ignore. This supports the concept that unless ESPN agrees to team s leaving of breaking up the ACC/GOR, it probably won't happen.

So I haven't been paying full attention, but David Hale's twitter series made it all clear for me. It's probably been said in one of the convos here but I missed it. I have wondered, and asked here, why it matters that a school gets $40M in conference revenue vs., say $60M. What the hell is a school going to do with that extra $20M? How much extraneous crap can you build to entice 18-year-old football youths? The facilities arms race has been a smarmy work-around to not being able to pay players directly. But there has to be a limiting effect, right? At some point the expenditures have to invite laughter and scrutiny. What can't you do with $40M, such that you NEED, OHMYGOD I NEED IT, $60M?

Hale's comments laid it out: the conferences and schools are (1) already defying the rules and using school money to fuel NIL, but more importantly, in fact game-over-ly, they are all preparing for a Supreme Court ruling that schools can pay athletes directly. At which point the boosters and NIL become chump change, and the networks determine which schools will succeed and which won't.

The sport is dead unless a comprehensive league is formed. Network money ruined it as it existed, even with the back-channel cheating of old. And a league? Meh. How is a formalized league going to handle NIL on the side?

 

[HouClone]

So I haven't been paying full attention, but David Hale's twitter series made it all clear for me. It's probably been said in one of the convos here but I missed it. I have wondered, and asked here, why it matters that a school gets $40M in conference revenue vs., say $60M. What the hell is a school going to do with that extra $20M? How much extraneous crap can you build to entice 18-year-old football youths? The facilities arms race has been a smarmy work-around to not being able to pay players directly. But there has to be a limiting effect, right? At some point the expenditures have to invite laughter and scrutiny. What can't you do with $40M, such that you NEED, OHMYGOD I NEED IT, $60M?

Hale's comments laid it out: the conferences and schools are (1) already defying the rules and using school money to fuel NIL, but more importantly, in fact game-over-ly, they are all preparing for a Supreme Court ruling that schools can pay athletes directly. At which point the boosters and NIL become chump change, and the networks determine which schools will succeed and which won't.

The sport is dead unless a comprehensive league is formed. Network money ruined it as it existed, even with the back-channel cheating of old. And a league? Meh. How is a formalized league going to handle NIL on the side?

If the influential powers that be want to avoid having say 25% of the populace stop caring about college football, they have to initiate a tv media collective revenue sharing agreement for all 10 FBS conferences. $90-100 million for Big 10/SEC and $30-$50 million for other 3 P5 is a killer. However, $20 million difference is doable. It will be hard to get the Big 10/SEC to agree but will take people like Saban, Finebaum, Bob Iger, other media types, Gene Smith, to voice support.

 

[Bryanw1995]

It would kind of be funny if they left and ended up in the B12 making less money than new ACC member USF.

I do not think there is any way in which they get a B16 invite. I think our chances are greater, and that is very very very slim. The SEC is already loaded with brands, they do not need another one that will syphon off Florida recruits. Also Tallahassee is a small market with an airport that is hard to fly into. And who is #18?

They act like the ACC is holding them back when in fact the ACC is the only thing keeping them relevant. I think they are in real danger of falling back to being a program like Michigan State, who was a power in the 50s and 60s but is only decent now. Even worse if they cannot get an SEC invite.

It's understandable to be angry at FSU, but they're getting an invite from both the SEC and B1G the minute they're available. They're one of the very few schools that both Conferences desire.

 

[Bryanw1995]

It would certainly be ironic if NIL/transfer portal ended up driving people away from viewing the teams they once loved, which could mean lower TV ratings, and all that media money schools were raking in diminished. I'm not saying its going to happen, but I can certainly see 10 years from now where this has all found some sort of middle ground. Right now everyone is trying to cash in, and it could backfire.

I went to A&M, and I couldn't agree with you more. I'm happy that the kids can make some money, but the current system is insane, chaotic and unsustainable. I'm not sure what the right changes are, but anything would be an improvement over what we have right now.