Anyone just hear Tom Izzo say he has to play a lot of people to develop a bench | Syracusefan.com

Anyone just hear Tom Izzo say he has to play a lot of people to develop a bench

Alsacs

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On ESPN.
He said his fanbase is upset he has played too many guys early this season.
Izzo says he needs to play everyone to
develop the players and develop a bench.

He was basically saying the non conference is get to better and developing your player.
He said with covid you need your players ready to play in case you lose anyone for 2 weeks.
 
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it's a different approach. doesn't mean it's objectively correct.

Izzo played 10 guys against Syracuse in the 2018 tournament. 8 guys logged at least 15 minutes. I suspect he played a deep bench in the nonconference that year. Did it help?
 
it's a different approach. doesn't mean it's objectively correct.

Izzo played 10 guys against Syracuse in the 2018 tournament. 8 guys logged at least 15 minutes. I suspect he played a deep bench in the nonconference that year. Did it help?
They went 30-4 before our defense was awesome.

I think the zone defense against teams not used to it is a weapon.
If that 2017 team could score it could have been very dangerous.
 
On ESPN.
He said his fanbase is upset he has played too many guys early this season.
Izzo says he needs to play everyone to
develop the players and develop a bench.

He was basically saying the non conference is get to better and developing your player.
He said with covid you need your players ready to play in case you lose anyone for 2 weeks.

The man has a point, particularly in COVID times. I'd prefer to see JB using more guys as a general rule but there are three things I feel are far too often left out of this discussion:

1) There is no direct line between PT early and improvement. Yes, I would agree, that it's hard to really simulate game minutes without actually playing in games. That said, you can also improve outside of games and there is absolutely no guarantee that giving guys minutes makes them key pieces later in the season. Fab was forcefed minutes but stunk his whole freshman year. He came back as an animal as a soph. Waiters was better than Fab by a longshot as a frosh but was a whole different player as a sophomore. Even as a frosh, Waiters played at least 10 minutes in our first 13 games and 9 minutes in our 14th game, yet he really struggled throughout conference play before blowing up against Marquette in the tourney. I'm not sure what that says. But you're not guaranteed meaningful contributions or wins by spreading minutes around.

2) There really is no reason, if you have a solid 7.5-man rotation, to *need* to go to your bench. A good, versatile forward and a good, versatile guard with a serviceable big man should be roughly the rotation you go with in big games. It's pretty rare that teams don't cut down the rotation in conference play, and cut it down even further in big games or postseason games.

3) You need to show something when you get the opportunity. The fact that people are still, to this day, miffed about Goodine not getting more minutes is utterly unfathomable to me. I really like the kid and think he'll be a solid piece at Providence, but when he got opportunities last year he contributed very little. His handle was OK, not great, he really struggled shooting the ball, wasn't going to be beating people off the dribble often and while he's a better defender to the eye than Buddy and Joe, his defensive metrics (small sample size alert) weren't real exciting either. I mean, if he walked onto the floor and showed a smooth handle and was breaking some guys down from time to time, I get it more. But we saw zero from him that approached exciting in terms of his potential in year 1.

What's the right answer? I'm not sure. I'd certainly like to see Bras and Anselem/Edwards get some run to see if there is anything there for this season, but the notion that people are losing their collective minds over it confounds me.
 
Pfft 5X40 benches don't matter.
Obviously you're exaggerating but the idea that you sacrifice wins early or early in the conference slate hoping you get them back later is a dicey strategy as well. Izzo has been bit by this before and will be again at some point. Doesn't mean he's wrong -- guy is obviously a great coach. But neither method is definitively better than the other.
 
Agree with Izzo, but he also played his lottery pick 18 minutes in their tourney loss to us.
Thank you for pointing this out! Good for Izzo for having a different philosophy, but let's be real... JB out-coached Izzo by leaps and bounds that day... this board would explode if JB sat the #4 overall pick for the majority of the game (especially with foul trouble not being the issue). Btw, both KenPom and sports-reference.com had Jackson only playing 15 minutes that day (not 18)!
 
it's a different approach. doesn't mean it's objectively correct.

Izzo played 10 guys against Syracuse in the 2018 tournament. 8 guys logged at least 15 minutes. I suspect he played a deep bench in the nonconference that year. Did it help?


If you are smart enough to look past a single game, then I would say "yes", the number of Big 10 titles and Final Fours that Izzo has made show you that his way works.
 
it's a different approach. doesn't mean it's objectively correct.

Izzo played 10 guys against Syracuse in the 2018 tournament. 8 guys logged at least 15 minutes. I suspect he played a deep bench in the nonconference that year. Did it help?
We had to play a walk on lol
 
If you are smart enough to look past a single game, then I would say "yes", the number of Big 10 titles and Final Fours that Izzo has made show you that his way works.
if you are smart enough to understand that there are many variables influencing success--and that the number of players in the rotation may be confounded with other more important variables--then you might say the answer is "no."

"if you are a smart enough to" has to be among the most condescending and unapproachable ways to converse with another human.
 
it's a different approach. doesn't mean it's objectively correct.

Izzo played 10 guys against Syracuse in the 2018 tournament. 8 guys logged at least 15 minutes. I suspect he played a deep bench in the nonconference that year. Did it help?

Given that Tom Izzo has made 8 final fours in the last 20 tournaments I think his approach might be decent.
 
The issue for us remains; Are we so pathetic on a talent level, that our athletically-challenged guard combo HAS to play 38 mins a game? If the answer is yes, then we desperately need to scuttle our recruiting philosophy, cause it’s not working.
What worries me is, and yes i realize it’s only the first game, we recruit obvious talent like Kadary, and still he sits.
We’ll see if that was an anomaly or par for the course. Let’s just say I’m not optimistic we’ve seen the last of this bizarre philosophy, and will likely see it a few more times this year.
 
On ESPN.
He said his fanbase is upset he has played too many guys early this season.
Izzo says he needs to play everyone to
develop the players and develop a bench.

He was basically saying the non conference is get to better and developing your player.
He said with covid you need your players ready to play in case you lose anyone for 2 weeks.
I wish we played more people early but Izzo is like 1-5 vs Boeheim and like 6-50 vs Boeheim, Williams and K. I honestly liked it fine when boeheim played 3 guards, 3 forwards and 2 centers. That is great. So right now if he played Kadary 20 min a game, we already have the 3 forwards. Play Edwards and Frank 15 combined minutes with BS out. That is not a dramatic change
 
Agree with Izzo, but he also played his lottery pick 18 minutes in their tourney loss to us.

Yeah, there are times where I see the strategy working - and failing.

Clemson from 5-10 years ago, seems like a team, or maybe even Florida State recently, that at times has been so overly bench reliant that I think they shoot themselves in the foot with it. They'll be ticking along, and then boom, wholesale subs!!! Momentum drifts away, and I'm left wondering What they were doing.

That being said, Izzo seems to be good with it - but likely makes mistakes as well - like the instance you highlighted. Plus, he's a bad dude, so him.

We seem to go with the 180 of the first couple teams, where no matter how bad our momentum is, we just stick with the same lineup and go with that because at some point, no matter how far down the road it may be, guys will eventually score baskets again and then it's ON and we can come back!!!! Or maybe it's about spacing. I don't know.
 
On ESPN.
He said his fanbase is upset he has played too many guys early this season.
Izzo says he needs to play everyone to
develop the players and develop a bench.

He was basically saying the non conference is get to better and developing your player.
He said with covid you need your players ready to play in case you lose anyone for 2 weeks.
Exactly. And ask Leonard Hamilton about developing his bench players. That guy plays 10+ guys almost every season. And they still did it when our talent was better than theirs. Now it’s reversed. Not saying you need to follow that philosophy, but you do need to develop a bench and play more than 6 guys if you have the talent.
 
Exactly. And ask Leonard Hamilton about developing his bench players. That guy plays 10+ guys almost every season. And they still did it when our talent was better than theirs. Now it’s reversed. Not saying you need to follow that philosophy, but you do need to develop a bench and play more than 6 guys if you have the talent.

hamilton has one elite 8 if I’m not mistaken. If JB did the exact same thing as Hamilton and we were winning more regular season games, the only thing that would change would be people saying we need to tighten our rotation or some other thing. Roy Williams has done nothing but win college basketball games and the prevailing opinion here is that he’s a bad coach.

JB ain’t perfect and discussion of strategy and rotation is fine. He’s a big boy, it’s ok to critique him but I feel like it invariably goes down these weird roads where b/c kadary played 9 mins in a tight game in his first game after no practice for two weeks it means he won’t play this season? Or buddy, who put up 15 a game, should be sitting behind Brycen goodine, who played a whopping 14 mins and scored 4 pts in PC’s thumping of fairfield? Or Anselem should begetting minutes b/c he could be an nba guy down the road?

I just feel the discussions go off the rails. I’d prefer a deeper rotation but the real issue is that we just haven’t been quite as talented the past few years and JB is trying to get what he can out of who we’ve got. Blame him for the recruiting, fine. But don’t tell me forcefeeding goodine minutes last year would have made us a sweet 16 team.

By the way — not implying you’re saying these things Sherm. Just describing how I feel the conversation seems to get a little wacky.
 
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I just feel the discussions go off the rails. I’d prefer a deeper rotation but the real issue is that we just haven’t been quite as talented the past few years and JB is trying to get what he can out of who we’ve got. Blame him for the recruiting, fine. But don’t tell me forcefeeding goodine minutes last year would have made us a sweet 16 team.
This is excellent, nice work! Should be posted at the start of every thread.
 
hamilton has one elite 8 if I’m not mistaken. If JB did the exact same thing as Hamilton and we were winning more regular season games, the only thing that would change would be people saying we need to tighten our rotation or some other thing. Roy Williams has done nothing but win college basketball games and the prevailing opinion here is that he’s a bad coach.

JB ain’t perfect and discussion of strategy and rotation is fine. He’s a big boy, it’s ok to critique him but I feel like it invariably goes down these weird roads where b/c kadary played 9 mins in a tight game in his first game after no practice for two weeks it means he won’t play this season? Or buddy, who put up 15 a game, should be sitting behind Brycen goodine, who played a whopping 14 mins and scored 4 pts in PC’s thumping of fairfield? Or Anselem should begetting minutes b/c he could be an nba guy down the road?

I just feel the discussions go off the rails. I’d prefer a deeper rotation but the real issue is that we just haven’t been quite as talented the past few years and JB is trying to get what he can out of who we’ve got. Blame him for the recruiting, fine. But don’t tell me forcefeeding goodine minutes last year would have made us a sweet 16 team.

By the way — not implying you’re saying these things Sherm. Just describing how I feel the conversation seems to get a little wacky.
Agree with you on all this. But Roy Williams is not a bad coach, as many people on here (not you) assert. People that say that don’t really know much about basketball. I’m just trying to point out that there’s more than one way to skin a cat, and JB’s approach isn’t by nature better than Hamilton’s, whose had great success at Florida State over the past 10 years and made them a more consistent program than ours.
 
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Roy Williams is not a bad coach. People that say that on here don’t really know much about basketball. I’m just trying to point out that there’s more than one way to skin a cat, and JB’s approach isn’t by nature better than Hamilton’s, whose had great success at Florida State over the past 10 years and become a more consistent program than ours.
Yeah, I always thought Hamilton did a pretty nice job at a helpless Miami program as well. Totally agree and that's a discussion that absolutely should take place. I would rather see 8.5 than 7.5 (or what has really been more like 6/6.5 at times the past couple years) or at least see us getting our shooters a few breaks here and there. I honestly think the thing that would cure a lot of our ills is finally getting back to landing the one top-25/30 type kid each year. I think there would be far less of this discussion were we in a spot where Benny was coming in next year and dior the year after, etc. This roster with some elite talent like a waiters or MCW would be pretty damn solid.
 

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