Anyone just hear Tom Izzo say he has to play a lot of people to develop a bench

[djcon57]

Because an 82 game regular season followed by potentially 28 playoff games is the same thing as playing a max of 40 college games?

why doesn’t Lebron play 48 mins every playoff game?

 

[djcon57]

Longer games, 4 times as many regular season games, more travel, etc.

7-8 man rotation is ideal in close games, IMO. I think we’ve got 7-8 who can actually play this year. Some of these recent years, our bench guys all stunk.

if you play the 6-7-8 guys actual mins, I would agree. 3-5 mins, i don’t

 

[Alsacs]

A lot, IMO because the other guys should all be better. 8th should be whatever center is best, and should get more/less time from game to game depending on matchup/foul trouble.

I mean I hope your right.
I just don’t see it.
I see a medicore team that can make the tournament as a 8-9 seed.

I don’t see a top 4 of the conference team.
Talent wins.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

why doesn’t Lebron play 48 mins every playoff game?

He was 17th in the NBA last year in average minutes played with 34.6, and #1 on the Lakers.

Lillard was 1st with 37.5 mpg.

 

[Sherman20]

This year’s “7” aren’t good enough to be a reason to play “7”.

We are replacing Hughes with Griffin.
We are replacing Goodine with Richmond.

How much better does that make us from last year?

Much better. Richmond is a significant upgrade over Goodine because he’s a natural and skilled PG. Just wait til he adjusts to the college game and really gets going.

 

[Alsacs]

Much better. Richmond is a significant upgrade over Goodine (especially in the short term) because he’s a natural and skilled PG. Just wait til he adjusts to the college game and really gets going.

I hope so because bench depth is why Michigan State beat Duke last night.

Their starters sucked. Their bench came in and brought them back and won by double digits.

Our starters are going to have bad games. Having depth allows you pick them up when they struggle.

 

[CusefanATL]

it's a different approach. doesn't mean it's objectively correct.

Izzo played 10 guys against Syracuse in the 2018 tournament. 8 guys logged at least 15 minutes. I suspect he played a deep bench in the nonconference that year. Did it help?

the #3 pick in the draft OF THAT SEASON played like 15 minutes.

 

[OrangeDW]

I hope so because bench depth is why Michigan State beat Duke last night.

Their starters sucked. Their bench came in and brought them back and won by double digits.

Our starters are going to have bad games. Having depth allows you pick them up when they struggle.

Josh Pace, Billy Edelin, and Jeremy McNeil won us an NCAA tournament game in our title year.

All bench players aren’t created equal.

Kadary and Griffin off the bench means we should be pretty good. IMO. Though I’d imagine Griffin starts now with Sidibe out.

 

[Alsacs]

Josh Pace, Billy Edelin, and Jeremy McNeil won us an NCAA tournament game in our title year.

All bench players aren’t created equal.

Kadary and Griffin off the bench means we should be pretty good. IMO. Though I’d imagine Griffin starts now with Sidibe out.

If we have Carmelo Anthony and Hakim Warrick on the floor I don’t want the bench to play.

Which is what I said.
If you have elite talent play them a lot of minutes.
I don’t want to list the guards since 2013 that have played over 30+ MPG that aren’t superstars.

Mike Gbinije okay.
Elijah Hughes okay.

Not the majority of the starting lineup.

 

[OrangeDW]

If we have Carmelo Anthony and Hakim Warrick on the floor I don’t want the bench to play.

Which is what I said.
If you have elite talent play them a lot of minutes.
I don’t want to list the guards since 2013 that have played over 30+ MPG that aren’t superstars.

Mike Gbinije okay.
Elijah Hughes okay.

Not the majority of the starting lineup.

Not sure what that has to do with what I said though...

Kadary/Griff off the bench = good.

Goodine off the bench = bad.

Matt Moyer and freshman Sidibe off the bench = bad.

You’ve gotta have players that can play off the bench.

Throwing guys that suck minutes to “develop” them and “rest” guys doesn’t do anything good.

 

[Alsacs]

Not sure what that has to do with what I said though...

Kadary/Griff off the bench = good.

Goodine off the bench = bad.

Matt Moyer and freshman Sidibe off the bench = bad.

You’ve gotta have players that can play off the bench.

Throwing guys that suck minutes to “develop” them and “rest” guys doesn’t do anything good.

Then the staff has to be better at bringing in talent.

We have no guard commitments for 2021.
We lost our top 2022 guard target.

When we will actually have 4 quality guards?

So we can actually have quality depth that can play.

 

[OrangeDW]

Then the staff has to be better at bringing in talent.

We have no guard commitments for 2021.
We lost our top 2022 guard target.

When we will actually have 4 quality guards?

So we can actually have quality depth that can play.

Our top 3 guards are all back next year. We’ll be fine IMO.

The 4th guard doesn’t get time in close games anyway. I’d imagine Griffin would slide to guard in case of injury this year.

 

[pearl31]

why doesn’t Lebron play 48 mins every playoff game?

because he's been playing nonstop for 6 mos and he's like 40?

 

[djcon57]

because he's been playing nonstop for 6 mos and he's like 40?

did he play 48 as a rookie?

better yet...how about this...Did anyone in the bubble playoffs average more than 45 a game? How about 42? How about 41?

 

[Ceerqqq]

Playing only 6 or 7 guys in most games is not sustainable all season long; that's the point.

While Izzo is worried about developing his 8th, 9th, & 10th players, Boeheim is a hell of a lot more concerned about developing his starting five to where they can compete with the best they'll face. And after he thinks he has a starting five who are playing reasonably well together, his next priority is to develop his 6th & 7th players, to where--when they come into the game--they'll be complimentary, and not just a cause of mistakes & turnovers.

What all the Deep Bench Fans seem to ignore is the extreme importance of giving your 1st five, and then your next 2 subs the minutes they need to be able to develop over the course of the season. If your first five are playing fairly well, then you can afford to give time to the 6th & 7th players. When do you know your starters are doing fairly well? When they aren't struggling to beat a team they're heavily favored to beat. If they're struggling, then they obviously need all the time they can spend together on the court to get better as a team.

And yes, Jim Boeheim will tell you it's important to have some good substitutes who can come into the game with the game on the line and not blow the game on mistakes, and also because of the potential injuries, etc. It is crucial that the 6th and 7th players get as much time playing with the starters as they can, if they're gonna be any help at the end of the season.

So yeah, when Boeheim sticks with a 7-man rotation, he knows he's rolling the dice on being caught by an injury some time during the season. Of course, he could be overly concerned about that and end up getting the criticism that Izzo's hearing. In his judgment, based on his experience, is that most times he'll be able to avoid catastrophic injuries, or that his 8th guy will be able to step in as the 7th guy in the rotation, without it posing too great a risk to his team's fortunes.

So here's the thing: aside from those concerns, any PT you give to the 8th, 9th, & 10th players is PT you're taking away from your 6th & 7th players (and/or your starters, who also need a lot of time playing with both themselves and with the 6th & 7th players). Why would you do that? Unless maybe your 6th and 7th players are MDAA's, like the starters are?

The time constraints that coaches face are HUGE. They have only so many practices and they see the improvement that occurs via repetitions. So here's my question for the Deep Bench Fans:

Are you willing to acknowledge that what you're really advocating is that the 6th & 7th players should be deprived of the time they need to develop w/the starters, for the sole purpose of giving more development time to the 8,9,10 players, who are very unlikely to be called upon to help win the tough games later on? Cuz that's what you're calling for, whether you realize it or not.

It's not a "costless decision" to give your 8-10 players more PT. You're taking it away from players who need it just as much, and maybe even more. Do you guys realize this, or no?

 

[Cusefan0307]

Players want to play. Going to be hard to sign someone at guard when all our guards have at least 3 seasons of eligibility left to come in and be a fourth guard. Richmond is going to be fantastic. I think he will be much better than Carey or Goodine. I also believe and we are bringing in another elite talent at forward next year.

I think JB will roll out the next game with Edwards/Anselem at center. If they play well they will get time, but if they struggle it will unfortunately be the token start we have seen in the past with Marek getting most of the time at center.

 

[djcon57]

The time constraints that coaches face are HUGE. They have only so many practices and they see the improvement that occurs via repetitions. So here's my question for the Deep Bench Fans:

Are you willing to acknowledge that what you're really advocating is that the 6th & 7th players should be deprived of the time they need to develop w/the starters, for the sole purpose of giving more development time to the 8,9,10 players, who are very unlikely to be called upon to help win the tough games later on? Cuz that's what you're calling for, whether you realize it or not.

It's not a "costless decision" to give your 8-10 players more PT. You're taking it away from players who need it just as much, and maybe even more. Do you guys realize this, or no?

using this theory, we would not have played Josh Pace in 2003...who, without, we don’t win the champ game.

so no, I don’t agree with it, at all.

 

[Alsacs]

While Izzo is worried about developing his 8th, 9th, & 10th players, Boeheim is a hell of a lot more concerned about developing his starting five to where they can compete with the best they'll face. And after he thinks he has a starting five who are playing reasonably well together, his next priority is to develop his 6th & 7th players, to where--when they come into the game--they'll be complimentary, and not just a cause of mistakes & turnovers.

What all the Deep Bench Fans seem to ignore is the extreme importance of giving your 1st five, and then your next 2 subs the minutes they need to be able to develop over the course of the season. If your first five are playing fairly well, then you can afford to give time to the 6th & 7th players. When do you know your starters are doing fairly well? When they aren't struggling to beat a team they're heavily favored to beat. If they're struggling, then they obviously need all the time they can spend together on the court to get better as a team.

And yes, Jim Boeheim will tell you it's important to have some good substitutes who can come into the game with the game on the line and not blow the game on mistakes, and also because of the potential injuries, etc. It is crucial that the 6th and 7th players get as much time playing with the starters as they can, if they're gonna be any help at the end of the season.

So yeah, when Boeheim sticks with a 7-man rotation, he knows he's rolling the dice on being caught by an injury some time during the season. Of course, he could be overly concerned about that and end up getting the criticism that Izzo's hearing. In his judgment, based on his experience, is that most times he'll be able to avoid catastrophic injuries, or that his 8th guy will be able to step in as the 7th guy in the rotation, without it posing too great a risk to his team's fortunes.

So here's the thing: aside from those concerns, any PT you give to the 8th, 9th, & 10th players is PT you're taking away from your 6th & 7th players (and/or your starters, who also need a lot of time playing with both themselves and with the 6th & 7th players). Why would you do that? Unless maybe your 6th and 7th players are MDAA's, like the starters are?

The time constraints that coaches face are HUGE. They have only so many practices and they see the improvement that occurs via repetitions. So here's my question for the Deep Bench Fans:

Are you willing to acknowledge that what you're really advocating is that the 6th & 7th players should be deprived of the time they need to develop w/the starters, for the sole purpose of giving more development time to the 8,9,10 players, who are very unlikely to be called upon to help win the tough games later on? Cuz that's what you're calling for, whether you realize it or not.

It's not a "costless decision" to give your 8-10 players more PT. You're taking it away from players who need it just as much, and maybe even more. Do you guys realize this, or no?

Time constraints aren’t why we don’t have 4 quality guards on this roster.
Griffin is not a guard on this team.

We don’t have a guard in our 2021 recruiting class.

I am not high on Buddy Boeheim and Joe Girard being high 30 MPG players.

They are solid players who if this roster actually had quality guard depth wouldn’t need to be relied upon as much as they are.

When will we be competing for conference titles again?
It’s been since 2014 we finished top 4.

That is 6 years ago.

 

[oTTo113445]

It's rare to have 2 true elite PG's, or board eating PF's in the same year. I always figured the only position that we would allow playing time "only for defense" in the 2-3 zone in is at Center. Not against it, but I always wondered if that cost us 1-1.5 rotational players.

Most would think Centers would be lined up to stay at home near the basket on D, eat boards and most of all make the big defensive play late. That makes me wonder when we are left watching other teams with two solid physical aggressive centers.

 

[OrangeDW]

using this theory, we would not have played Josh Pace in 2003...who, without, we don’t win the champ game.

so no, I don’t agree with it, at all.

Josh was 6th man for the first 12 games or so though. Billy bumped him down the pecking order for awhile when he became eligible to play. But yes, good thing Boeheim found a role for him again by the end. It was largely at Duany’s expense. He only played 7 minutes against Ok St, and then only 14 and 13 minutes in the final 4 games.

 

[malpearl31]

did he play 48 as a rookie?

better yet...how about this...Did anyone in the bubble playoffs average more than 45 a game? How about 42? How about 41?

LeBron averaged 39.5 minutes per game as a rookie. In his 2nd season, he led the league with 42.4 mpg.

The very next season (2005-06, the first season LeBron's Cavs made the playoffs) he averaged 42.5 minutes per game in the regular season, and upped that to 46.5 minutes per game in the playoffs.

I'm not sure these numbers support the argument you were trying to make, but them's the facts, anyway.

 

[djcon57]

Josh was 6th man for the first 12 games or so though. Billy bumped him down the pecking order for awhile when he became eligible to play. But yes, good thing Boeheim found a role for him again by the end. It was largely at Duany’s expense. He only played 7 minutes against Ok St, and then only 14 and 13 minutes in the final 4 games.

Correct, but then I remember mid way through the season JB would barely play him. The Rutgers game we lost specifically he stuck with Duany despite a hideous game and barely played Pace.


edit...here’s the box score. That 1-10 looks familiar. Point is, thankfully JB started using Pace again. I hope he does the same with Kadary.

Rutgers 68, Syracuse 65

 

[djcon57]

LeBron averaged 39.5 minutes per game as a rookie. In his 2nd season, he led the league with 42.4 mpg.

The very next season (2005-06, the first season LeBron's Cavs made the playoffs) he averaged 42.5 minutes per game in the regular season, and upped that to 46.5 minutes per game in the playoffs.

I'm not sure these numbers support the argument you were trying to make, but them's the facts, anyway.

yep...Not 48 minutes.

Thanks...how about the bubble playoffs.

 

[Alsacs]

It just amazes a decent portion of this fanbase won’t acknowledge our coaching staff has screwed up roster management and it’s a major reason we are where we are.

Sanctions aren’t why the roster is what it currently is.
I want to be relevant. If we are going to say this program is a top program then let’s see it.
Last year being patient was understandable but c’mon enough is enough.
I really hope the opener was an outlier I just don’t believe it is.

The starting 5 is not a top 25 team IMO.

 

[OrangeDW]

It just amazes a decent portion of this fanbase won’t acknowledge our coaching staff has screwed up roster management and it’s a major reason we are where we are.

Sanctions aren’t why the roster is what it currently is.
I want to be relevant. If we are going to say this program is a top program then let’s see it.
Last year being patient was understandable but c’mon enough is enough.
I really hope the opener was an outlier I just don’t believe it is.

The starting 5 is not a top 25 team IMO.

seems like a 2018 post.

Roster is in a lot better shape now. I think we’ll be pretty good this year, and then we bring most of the guys back and add Benny.