are there any JB defenders left?

[Brooky03]

2019 was our best team of the past 9 years

We evaluate teams completely differently, it seems. Your comment earlier would imply that conference record means a lot more to you than it does to me.

Different strokes for different folks. Have a good one.

 

[DilemaCuse]

2019 was our best team of the past 9 years (only team to safely make the tourney with room to spare). That feels like the least logical year to be doubtful out of the nine. But if you’re bowing out fair enough. Have a good night.

Fair but the zone got torched by Baylor in that 1st rd. Plus Senior Frank Howard suspended for it. I always questioned how that happened? Just seemed like some lack of discipline within the program.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Buckle in.

My interest is in the entirety of the Syracuse basketball program. I’m not really sure where to begin with your post. The fact remains that the current day difference is that one cohort wants JB out now and one wants him out in a season. The fact that some have wanted him out years ago doesn’t change that.

There are a few factors that I guess put me in the JB fanboy club or whatever you guys want to characterize it as. One, there really never was a compelling reason why Syracuse, NY was good at college basketball. We’re not particularly close to the large east coast cities, we rarely have homegrown talent, Syracuse itself is nothing special (to put it nicely), and before the Carrier Dome there was nothing about the facilities to write home about. We had very erratic success with some of the coaches before JB, but he’s clearly the biggest reason Syracuse basketball ever becoming what we know Syracuse basketball to be. So, that’s point one. Yeah, I know, I know; you can’t let him hold the program hostage and yada yada. Would we have been as good or better over these almost 50 years with a different coach or coaches? Maybe. Probably not, but maybe. We don’t know that, though. We know this.

Point two is that this has not been a 9 season slide. The NCAAT matters. It matters more than the regular season by a decent margin. All factors considered, this has been about a 4 season slide, with a S16 run in there. During JB’s prime, the odd poor season or two would pop up. There was no reason to fire him prior to the 2020 season, imo; at least not for performance. His bad seasons would be followed by good seasons, with no back to back bad seasons. 2020 was a bad season but not reason to fire him on the spot, even considering the seasons prior, imo. 2021 was the S16. Nobody fires a coach coming off a S16 (nobody should, at least). ‘22 was bad and the end of that season marked the point when a forced resignation would have been reasonable.

Three: the sanctions messed everything up and the sanctions largely fell on an inept athletic department, not a rogue or cheating or turning a blind eye coach. I know the facts of the case. I know the NCAA’s findings. That wasn’t JB. I don’t care to argue this point. That wasn’t on him and he seemingly made a commitment to try to get the program back from a mini-death penalty.

Four: His coaching is still good. His recruiting sucks. The fact that he’d still win if he had the talent advantage is what always gave me hope. I always hoped that the recruits, ranked lower than we’d like, would surprise. They mostly have not. And they tend to leave before any meaningful development could occur.

It’s clear that the recruiting isn’t going to pick up and a transfer portal savior ain’t coming. That’s on JB and that’s ultimately why I finally got to the point of being cool with his departure. He hasn’t adjusted to the new recruiting/transfer landscape and his style isn’t conducive to getting a team full of first year guys and incomplete upperclassmen up to speed quick enough. Next season is already lost, so I’m indifferent to that departure being now or then.

You literally said the difference between when ‘cohorts’ wanted JB out was one year. That’s not true, and reframing it as being only a “current day” characterization doesn’t make it less misleading. It’s all wishcraft anyway, so trying to make it seem like it’s a reasonable compromise to just wait and be satisfied with another year of this is just… bogus.

Not going to even go into your specious and erroneous enumerations except for the glaring two that I can see incidentally as I type this…. But, sanctions—his responsibility. Not an excuse. Coaching? To suggest that he is coaching well is ridiculous. We have glaring incompetencies at every position, his roster management is arbitrary and capricious, he doesn’t bother to even do anything for the first half of practices, etc. ad infinitum ad absurbitum…. Oh, and his recruiting sucks because his coaching sucks and he’s too old and elite kids don’t want to run the Wing-T. Not sure how recruiting is being parted out from coaching. Every other coach recognizes it’s part of the job and sucking at that sorta means you’re sucking at the other stuff too, unless you can magically transform players, and he’s not doing that and never has.

 

[DoctorBombay]

You have to compartmentalize the excitement of 2016 with the reality of 2016.

We went 19-13 (9-9) prior to the tourney -- that is a mediocre season over a 32-game sample size. We were all shocked when we made the field and double shocked that we somehow avoided a play-in game. The dominos lined up incredibly in that we drew a 7 seed, 15 seed and 11 seed prior to the Elite 8. 6-7 minutes of magical Malachi Richardson basketball doesn't negate the prior 4 months of mediocre basketball if you're evaluating the reality of that season in an honest way.

(I literally ran a lap around my house after we beat Virginia. It was amazing.)

College basketball being the way it is, a postseason run can mask alot of ills and even earn you a few more undeserved years at the helm. I guarantee you if we make a Sweet 16 run, then JB will have his defenders advocating for another year ...or 2. Believe me, I know...I was one of those defenders back then.
Point being, the nature of the sport dictates you must count the ENTIRE year, postseason very much included, and it cannot be compartmentalized. I submit that March weighs about 65% of today's college bball, and a good showing every March will always buy you more time...until the decline is undeniable.

 

[Scooch]

Fair but the zone got torched by Baylor in that 1st rd. Plus Senior Frank Howard suspended for it. I always questioned how that happened? Just seemed like some lack of discipline within the program.

Lack of discipline? In OUR program?!

Seriously, Up until the past few years, that was a pretty big part of our brand.

 

[Brooky03]

You literally said the difference between when ‘cohorts’ wanted JB out was one year. That’s not true, and reframing it as being only a “current day” characterization doesn’t make it less misleading. It’s all wishcraft anyway, so trying to make it seem like it’s a reasonable compromise to just wait and be satisfied with another year of this is just… bogus.

Not going to even go into your specious and erroneous enumerations except for the glaring two that I can see incidentally as I type this…. But, sanctions—his responsibility. Not an excuse. Coaching? To suggest that he is coaching well is ridiculous. We have glaring incompetencies at every position, his roster management is arbitrary and capricious, he doesn’t bother to even do anything for the first half of practices, etc. ad infinitum ad absurbitum…. Oh, and his recruiting sucks because his coaching sucks and he’s too old and elite kids don’t want to run the Wing-T. Not sure how recruiting is being parted out from coaching. Every other coach recognizes it’s part of the job and sucking at that sorta means you’re sucking at the other stuff too, unless you can magically transform players, and he’s not doing that and never has.

Nice work with the thesaurus. Enjoy your night, bud.

 

[NineOneSeven]

‘16 was a final four team. ‘18 was a 23 win Sweet 16.

Counting the slide before ‘18 is unreasonable and biased, imo.

Very happy Izzo decided to not play JJJ in that game but instead a 4th string forward.

 

[Brooky03]

Very happy Izzo decided to not play JJJ in that game but instead a 4th string forward.

Stuff happens. People look back at Butler like they could do basketball when they made a run through multiple teams missing key starters. It all evens out.

But I will be on my death bed talking about how Syracuse had a 110% surefire National Championship, locked and loaded and guaranteed ripped from their hands because Onuaku decided to hustle in an ultimately meaningless BET game.

 

[Brooky03]

The things Onuaku would have done to that goofball Zoubek. Oh to dream

 

[kcsu]

Syv only retained him because? JB has more power than Syv. That is why he used Hop to try and force JB hand. Anyone who met JB for 15 minutes could have told you how that would go. After Hop refused to be involved and bolted for Washington then Svd lost

You do realize Hop agreed to it with a signed contract years before JB pulled his baloney. You're a true disciple.

 

[DoctorBombay]

Count me as one, not that he needs defending, just don't bad mouth the man near me. He is a legend and even though the end is near and is not the ending I would have scripted for him I have a huge appreciation for the body of work. I cannot imagine there ever being a coach giving so much of his life and effort to one institution. I will be sad when he leaves, I hope it is of his own accord. I hope his replacement enjoys some of the success he did. I root for both the man and the laundry.

I love Jim Boeheim. Its time for him to go. The 2 points can be mutually exclusive.

 

[Day2]

You have to compartmentalize the excitement of 2016 with the reality of 2016.

We went 19-13 (9-9) prior to the tourney -- that is a mediocre season over a 32-game sample size. We were all shocked when we made the field and double shocked that we somehow avoided a play-in game. The dominos lined up incredibly in that we drew a 7 seed, 15 seed and 11 seed prior to the Elite 8. 6-7 minutes of magical Malachi Richardson basketball doesn't negate the prior 4 months of mediocre basketball if you're evaluating the reality of that season in an honest way.

(I literally ran a lap around my house after we beat Virginia. It was amazing.)

And you tied yourself up in a knot “compartmentalizing” a Final Four appearance. Some of you guys kill me.

“If you just ignore the 25-0 start…”

“If you forget the Final Four run…”

Yeah, well, I’m not going to do that. You want me to look at the entire picture? How about you do the same?

 

[Cusefan0307]

And you tied yourself up in a knot “compartmentalizing” a Final Four appearance. Some of you guys kill me.

“If you just ignore the 25-0 start…”

“If you forget the Final Four run…”

Yeah, well, I’m not going to do that. You want me to look at the entire picture? How about you do the same?

I agree. JB was not 19-13 in 2016. There’s no way we lose all those games had he been the coach instead of Hopkins. That team likely wins 21 or 22 had he not been suspended. Either Hopkins did a terrible job or the team stunk and it wasn’t his fault.

 

[Day2]

I agree. JB was not 19-13 in 2016. There’s no way we lose all those games had he been the coach instead of Hopkins. That team likely wins 21 or 22 had he not been suspended. Either Hopkins did a terrible job or the team stunk and it wasn’t his fault.

And I think that’s why we were comfortably in the tournament. The committee saw it the same way you do.

 

[Reilly35]

i dont read this board as much as i used to (having a 3 yr old will do that) , but in the past whenever boeheim got criticized or soneone wanted him gone there were always posters running to his defense saying “ he built syracuse basketball, hes in the hall of fame, we made the final 4 recently, he deserves to leave whenever he wants, youll be sorry when hes gone, etc etc”

surely theres not any of those people left is there?? even the most committed jb defenders have gotta admit his a$$ has gotsta go.

and dont call me surely.

Right here. Just like they’re are still a lot of Lebron defenders out there

 

[Millhouse]

Can’t you tho

The only people who would are not smart enough get to that level

 

[Millhouse]

I don’t think its important to pinpoint when a decline began, or anything like that.

I’d sincerely like to hear from someone who thinks that JAB can turn SU back into a top 25 program. That’s what matters.

We haven’t been ranked at all in 4 years. Haven’t been ranked after January 1st in 9 years.

Is Boeheim the guy that will get us ranked again?

No. Of course not.

 

[SWC75]

Buckle in.

My interest is in the entirety of the Syracuse basketball program. I’m not really sure where to begin with your post. The fact remains that the current day difference is that one cohort wants JB out now and one wants him out in a season. The fact that some have wanted him out years ago doesn’t change that.

There are a few factors that I guess put me in the JB fanboy club or whatever you guys want to characterize it as. One, there really never was a compelling reason why Syracuse, NY was good at college basketball. We’re not particularly close to the large east coast cities, we rarely have homegrown talent, Syracuse itself is nothing special (to put it nicely), and before the Carrier Dome there was nothing about the facilities to write home about. We had very erratic success with some of the coaches before JB, but he’s clearly the biggest reason Syracuse basketball ever becoming what we know Syracuse basketball to be. So, that’s point one. Yeah, I know, I know; you can’t let him hold the program hostage and yada yada. Would we have been as good or better over these almost 50 years with a different coach or coaches? Maybe. Probably not, but maybe. We don’t know that, though. We know this.

Point two is that this has not been a 9 season slide. The NCAAT matters. It matters more than the regular season by a decent margin. All factors considered, this has been about a 4 season slide, with a S16 run in there. During JB’s prime, the odd poor season or two would pop up. There was no reason to fire him prior to the 2020 season, imo; at least not for performance. His bad seasons would be followed by good seasons, with no back to back bad seasons. 2020 was a bad season but not reason to fire him on the spot, even considering the seasons prior, imo. 2021 was the S16. Nobody fires a coach coming off a S16 (nobody should, at least). ‘22 was bad and the end of that season marked the point when a forced resignation would have been reasonable.

Three: the sanctions messed everything up and the sanctions largely fell on an inept athletic department, not a rogue or cheating or turning a blind eye coach. I know the facts of the case. I know the NCAA’s findings. That wasn’t JB. I don’t care to argue this point. That wasn’t on him and he seemingly made a commitment to try to get the program back from a mini-death penalty.

Four: His coaching is still good. His recruiting sucks. The fact that he’d still win if he had the talent advantage is what always gave me hope. I always hoped that the recruits, ranked lower than we’d like, would surprise. They mostly have not. And they tend to leave before any meaningful development could occur.

It’s clear that the recruiting isn’t going to pick up and a transfer portal savior ain’t coming. That’s on JB and that’s ultimately why I finally got to the point of being cool with his departure. He hasn’t adjusted to the new recruiting/transfer landscape and his style isn’t conducive to getting a team full of first year guys and incomplete upperclassmen up to speed quick enough. Next season is already lost, so I’m indifferent to that departure being now or then.

Here's the bottom line on the 9 season issue: The regular season is a truer test of a team than the NCAA tournament. it's four months rather than a couple of weeks. THIS WILL BE THE 9TH CONSECUTIVE YEAR IN WHICH WE WILL HAVE NO VOTES FOR THE TOP 25 IN THE LAST POLL BEFORE THE NCAA TOURNAMENT. That's nine straight years of mediocrity, by the standards of this program for the four decades before that. The 2016 run, featuring two big upsets with amazing comebacks and a soda can crushing at the hands to North Carolina in the Final Four got a #10 ranking in the final poll. The 2018 Sweet 16 got up 79 votes, the most of any team not in the Top 25 and the 2021 Sweet 16 got us a #25 ranking. From 2009-2014 we averaged 30 wins and 7 loses. Three teams achieved a #1 national ranking. Our final rankings were 12th, 8th, 18th, 5th, 3rd, and 17th. Our NCAA seeds were 3rd, 1st, 3rd, 1st, 4th and 3rd. Since then, it's 19-14, (the remaining games this year are unlikely to change that average) and our NCAA seeds have been 10th, 11th, 8th and 11th. Which of these is not like the other? Even 2016 is 7 years ago! How long do we wait to admit that this program is not what it used to be?

 

[Brooky03]

How long do we wait to admit that this program is not what it used to be?

Who’s waiting?

 

[baggerbob]

Here's the bottom line on the 9 season issue: The regular season is a truer test of a team than the NCAA tournament. it's four months rather than a couple of weeks. THIS WILL BE THE 9TH CONSECUTIVE YEAR IN WHICH WE WILL HAVE NO VOTES FOR THE TOP 25 IN THE LAST POLL BEFORE THE NCAA TORUNAMENT. That's nine straight years of mediocrity, by the standards of this program for the four decades before that. The 2016 run, featuring two big upsets with amazing comebacks and a soda can crushing at the hands to North Carolina in the Final Four got a #10 ranking in the final poll. The 2018 Sweet 16 got up 79 votes, the most of any team not in the Top 25 and the 2021 Sweet 16 got us a #25 ranking. From 2009-2014 we averaged 30 wins and 7 loses. Our final rankings were 12th, 8th, 18th, 5th, 3rd, and 17th. Our NCAA seeds were 3rd, 1st, 3rd, 1st, 4th and 3rd. Since then, it's 19-14, (the remaining games this year are unlikely to change that average) and our NCAA seeds have been 10th, 11th, 8th and 11th. Which of these is not like the other? Even 2016 is 7 years ago! How long do we wait to admit that this program is not what it used to be?

Steve you are finally coming on board, JB doesn't have the right to continue to hurt the program.
It should be a wonderful Thank You for the memories, but for JB it's time to go.

 

[SWC75]

I'm an SU fan and a Boeheim admirer for all he's done for the basketball program and the community. But that also allows me to be a critic when it's appropriate. here is a jumble of thoughts on the topic of where we are, where we have been and where we could be going.

- He doesn't deserve to be fired. It doesn't mean Wildhack can't have "the talk".

- Wildhack may want to bring in his own man, who would be beholden to him for the job. He inherited both Boeheim and Babers.

- I'll miss Jim when he leaves. I like his shows and find his press conferences entertaining, even if they can be exasperating.

- I've posted extensive information on the likelihood of the next coach "following a legend" having a better record and it's not good. It didn't work out in football for us and the jury is very much out in lacrosse.

- The idea of cleaning out the whole staff of people who "bleed orange", which you would be doing by bringing in an outside coach, bothers me. And it might result in a mass exodus of players, (which could happen anyway, I know). I'd also be concerned about players recruited for JB's system having to do something complete different under the new coach. I'd rather promote from within and hope that that coach isn't wedded to everything JB liked or didn't like. If that doesn't work, then we can go outside the program.

- I'm not a big man-to-man vs. zone guy. If you are playing the zone badly, you're not likely to be better in the man-or-man. Zones are designed to disguise individual deficiencies. But watching our zone get torched, it's hard not to think that zones may be outmoded in the Steph Curry Era, where teams are putting up 30-40 treys a game, forcing the zone to extend out too far to maintain its integrity on the inside, where we're really getting killed.

- I do like the press. At least a token press, designed to harass and delay the other team in setting up it's offense could be done and still allow us to drop back into our zone. And a pro-active press put on to surprise the other team could be effective - moreso than waiting until we are 20 points down. This team, with improved athleticism, should have made much more use of it. Jim's contempt for the strategy, when the teams he played for back in the day used it, is very strange. His willingness to let games be played in half court sets when we aren't very good in them doesn't make much sense.

- Recruiting skinny centers because you've assigned them to cover both posts and both corners hasn't worked for us. We are always getting bullied inside. Guys like Arinze Onuaku, Rick Jackson and Etan Thomas couldn't play for us now.

- Our recruiting has clearly declined. We keep getting guys with triple-digit rankings on 247. Some of those guys turn out to be pretty good and some of our double-digit guys have been disappointments. But over time, if you stop getting highly rated recruits and wind up hoping for "under the radar" guys to make it big, you are going to slip into mediocrity, which we have done over those last 9 years.

- JB said that he recruited 6 frosh to fill out the roster because he didn't want to wait for the transfer portal to open at the end of the season. He didn't say why. Ever since, he's been saying that the teams at the top of the league have more experience than us because they used the portal and we didn't. I think that decision may turn out to be the final straw. Teams in this era aren't going to go to the high schools for starers unless they are Mickey Dees. JB went to the portal for reserves and the high schools for starters. That's backwards thinking.

- Since that first ACC season, when we started 25-0, we've been a middle of the pack ACC team. We were never a middle of the pack Big East team. We've never come close to winning this conference, either in the regular season or the conference tournament. And I'm not convinced this conference is better than the Big East was. We just aren't as good.

- Circumstances, such as the probation, (which can effect your recruiting for years afterwards because you want to avoid further trouble), being in a conference no longer based in the northeast and now the transfer portal and the cesspool of NIL, may mean we can't get back to what we were a decade ago, even under a new coach. But being tied to a 78 year old coach with a sarcastic style and nearly a decade of mediocre records may not be helpful, either.

- I'm just tired of the whole issue and look forward to seeing what a new era could bring, whenever it starts. Then we can start arguing about the new coach.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Nice work with the thesaurus. Enjoy your night, bud.

Pretty lame response. You’re the one who used “cohort,” no? Either way, which of my words gave you trouble? You made a grade school argument, and some high school words tripped you up? Chief?

 

[Brooky03]

Pretty lame response. You’re the one who used “cohort,” no? Either way, which of my words gave you trouble? You made a grade school argument, and some high school words tripped you up? Chief?

No trouble. Just seemed like you went out of your way to use big words. Your 7th grade English teacher is certainly proud.

I’m sorry my argument didn’t live up to your standards. And I’m sorry your argument was equally substandard, pal.

 

[Oakland]

I'm an SU fan and a Boeheim admirer for all he's done for the basketball program and the community. But that also allows me to be a critic when it's appropriate. here is a jumble of thoughts on the topic of where we are, where we have been and where we could be going.

- He doesn't deserve to be fired. It doesn't mean Wildhack can't have "the talk".

- Wildhack may want to bring in his own man, who would be beholden to him for the job. He inherited both Boeheim and Babers.

- I'll miss Jim when he leaves. I like his shows and find his press conferences entertaining, even if they can be exasperating.

- I've posted extensive information on the likelihood of the next coach "following a legend" having a better record and it's not good.

- The idea of cleaning out the whole staff of people who "bleed orange", which you would be doing by bringing in an outside coach, bothers me. And it might result in a mass exodus of players, (which could happen anyway, I know). I'd also be concerned about players recruited for JB's system having to do something complete different under the new coach. I'd rather promote from within and hope that that coach isn't wedded to everything JB liked or didn't like. If that doesn't work, then we can go outside the program.

- I'm not a big man-to-man vs. zone guy. If you are playing the zone badly, you're not likely to be better in the man-or-man. Zones are designed to disguise individual deficiencies. But watching our zone get torched, it's hard not to think that zones may be outmoded in the Steph Curry Era, where teams are putting up 30-40 treys a game, forcing the zone to extend out too far to maintain its integrity on the inside, where we're really getting killed.

- I do like the press. At least a token press, designed to harass and delay the other team in setting off it's offense could be done and still allow us to drop back into our zone. And a pro-active press put on to surprise the other team could be effective - moreso than waiting until we are 20 points down. This team, with improved athleticism, should have made much more use of it. Jim's contempt for the strategy, when the teams he played for back in the day, is very strange. His willingness to let games be played in half court sets when we aren't very good in them doesn't make much sense.

- Recruiting skinny centers because you've assigned them to cover both posts and both corners hasn't worked for us. We are always getting bullied inside. Guys like Arinze Onuaku, Rick Jackson and Etan Thomas couldn't play for us now.

- Our recruiting has clearly declined. We keep getting guys with triple-digit rankings on 247. Some of those guys turn out to be pretty good and some of our double-digit guys have been disappointments. But over time, if you stop getting highly rated recruits and wind up hoping for "under the radar" guys to make it big, you are going to slip into mediocrity, which we have done over those last 9 years.

- Since that first ACC season, when we started 25-0, we've been a middle of the pack ACC team. We were never a middle of the pack Big East team. We've never come close to winning this conference, either in the regular season or the conference tournament. And I'm not convinced this conference is better than the Big East was. We just aren't as good.

- Circumstances, such as the probation, (which can effect your recruiting for years afterwards because you want to avoid further trouble), being in a conference no longer based in the northeast and now the transfer portal and the cesspool of NIL, may mean we can't get back to what we were a decade ago, even under a new coach. But being tied to a 78 year old coach with a sarcastic style and nearly a decade of mediocre records may not be helpful, either.

- I'm just tired of the whole issue and look forward to seeing what a new era could bring, whenever it starts.

Pretty good recap of the situation with a little powdered sugar on top.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

No trouble. Just seemed like you went out of your way to use big words. Your 7th grade English teacher is certainly proud.

I’m sorry my argument didn’t live up to your standards. And I’m sorry your argument was equally substandard, pal.

Dude. Seriously? Sounds like you’re bragging you don’t (yet?) have a 7th grade vocabulary….
1) We were arguing your ideas. Not sure why you had to get sensitive and make it personal.
2) Instead of focusing on those words, focus on your argument. It’s not getting any better as you keep shifting and diverting.
3) I went out of my way to amuse myself with the language, yes. Arbitrary and capricious is a standard legal phrase. Hell, Kramer used it on Seinfeld when he was trying to sound “lawyerly.” It’s a joke for myself, and even if you didn’t catch the reference, it’s still just two words you probably should know. Ad infinitem is common, too. Ad absurbitum I made up. Because I thought it was funny. None of which should have distracted you away from the recognition that you made an assertion of fact that was shown to not be factual. If you still don’t see that, throwing in a “Bud” doesn’t really give you more credibility.