are there any JB defenders left?

[Cuse#1]

Agreed.

It’s funny the people who have said he gave his life to this institution. Like he is a God and should be worshipped. Seriously? He has made a fortune coaching a game and he landed a trophy wife because of his fame. He has travelled the world for basketball with Team USA. And people think the university owes him?! No way.

Yes exactly comma great point I actually pointed this out once and you know somewhat of the same way really because you're absolutely right I mean this game is pretty much got you things that you would never achieve otherwise and somehow we still owe him.

Listen nobody's saying that he's not getting his due when he does retire or is asked to leave however but you just can't have this kind of lackluster everything exclamation point I mean I can't I can't imagine or I can't even think I mean of one thing that they are excelling at.

Plus the way he is doing this is just pretty much affirming that yes it's going to be like an asterisk that JB was a great coach one of the best but he was egotistical narcissistic jerk in my opinion that's how I think people are going to see this.

That is another reason why I think wild hacks should step in grow a pair and do what is right comma best for him and Syracuse basketball number one then for him and his career as a whole in terms of how people are going to perceive him as well as a person

 

[Cuse#1]

You know I was thinking and sometimes I just look at the standing since as a whole and see how the power five teams are doing and I remember some people bringing this guy up as a possible replacement and it's looking even better now like whoever the coach is for Providence friars, I forgot his name.

He looks to be one hell of a coach and I would go after him hard if I was wildhack. Unfortunately ever since he took over a lot of Syracuse Athletics have just gone down the tubes besides soccer.

Now listen I mean it's great that they won the title and everything and it was something that nobody would have ever thought would have could have happened, at least not me but you are pretty much here to look after two sports mainly, well three.

I would say but two of the money makers and that is going to be the turning point on whether you stay or go.

 

[BillSU]

I'm an SU fan and a Boeheim admirer for all he's done for the basketball program and the community. But that also allows me to be a critic when it's appropriate. here is a jumble of thoughts on the topic of where we are, where we have been and where we could be going.

- He doesn't deserve to be fired. It doesn't mean Wildhack can't have "the talk".

- Wildhack may want to bring in his own man, who would be beholden to him for the job. He inherited both Boeheim and Babers.

- I'll miss Jim when he leaves. I like his shows and find his press conferences entertaining, even if they can be exasperating.

- I've posted extensive information on the likelihood of the next coach "following a legend" having a better record and it's not good. It didn't work out in football for us and the jury is very much out in lacrosse.

- The idea of cleaning out the whole staff of people who "bleed orange", which you would be doing by bringing in an outside coach, bothers me. And it might result in a mass exodus of players, (which could happen anyway, I know). I'd also be concerned about players recruited for JB's system having to do something complete different under the new coach. I'd rather promote from within and hope that that coach isn't wedded to everything JB liked or didn't like. If that doesn't work, then we can go outside the program.

- I'm not a big man-to-man vs. zone guy. If you are playing the zone badly, you're not likely to be better in the man-or-man. Zones are designed to disguise individual deficiencies. But watching our zone get torched, it's hard not to think that zones may be outmoded in the Steph Curry Era, where teams are putting up 30-40 treys a game, forcing the zone to extend out too far to maintain its integrity on the inside, where we're really getting killed.

- I do like the press. At least a token press, designed to harass and delay the other team in setting off it's offense could be done and still allow us to drop back into our zone. And a pro-active press put on to surprise the other team could be effective - moreso than waiting until we are 20 points down. This team, with improved athleticism, should have made much more use of it. Jim's contempt for the strategy, when the teams he played for back in the day, is very strange. His willingness to let games be played in half court sets when we aren't very good in them doesn't make much sense.

- Recruiting skinny centers because you've assigned them to cover both posts and both corners hasn't worked for us. We are always getting bullied inside. Guys like Arinze Onuaku, Rick Jackson and Etan Thomas couldn't play for us now.

- Our recruiting has clearly declined. We keep getting guys with triple-digit rankings on 247. Some of those guys turn out to be pretty good and some of our double-digit guys have been disappointments. But over time, if you stop getting highly rated recruits and wind up hoping for "under the radar" guys to make it big, you are going to slip into mediocrity, which we have done over those last 9 years.

- JB said that he recruited 6 frosh to fill out the roster because he didn't want to wait for the transfer portal to open at the end of the season. He didn't say why. Ever since, he's been saying that the teams at the top of the league have more experience than us because they used the portal and we didn't. I think that decision may turn out to be the final straw. Teams in this era aren't going to go to the high schools for starers unless they are Mickey Dees. JB went to the portal for reserves and the high schools for starters. That's backwards thinking.

- Since that first ACC season, when we started 25-0, we've been a middle of the pack ACC team. We were never a middle of the pack Big East team. We've never come close to winning this conference, either in the regular season or the conference tournament. And I'm not convinced this conference is better than the Big East was. We just aren't as good.

- Circumstances, such as the probation, (which can effect your recruiting for years afterwards because you want to avoid further trouble), being in a conference no longer based in the northeast and now the transfer portal and the cesspool of NIL, may mean we can't get back to what we were a decade ago, even under a new coach. But being tied to a 78 year old coach with a sarcastic style and nearly a decade of mediocre records may not be helpful, either.

- I'm just tired of the whole issue and look forward to seeing what a new era could bring, whenever it starts. Then we can start arguing about the new coach.

Definitely the most informative, well thought out post of this thread.

I am a friend of JB’s. But in a post not too long ago, I said it was time for Jim to let go, to move on. There are pros and cons to his departure, but for what he has achieved he can and should step away and still have a legacy of a glorious tenure as HC of Syracuse basketball.

 

[Scooch]

Syracuse's Jim Boeheim says there's a plan for retirement

SYRACUSE, N.Y. (AP) — Syracuse coach Jim Boeheim said Wednesday on a sports radio call-in show that there's a plan in place for when he steps down.

apnews.com

Hahahahaha.

Of course there’s a plan. They’re going to hire a replacement. That’s the plan.

 

[NorSyr66]

Don’t worry, they’ll come out in full force when we beat that POS GA Tech team by 20 on Thursday.

Don't miss the game man...it is tomorrow (Tuesday) evening. It could possibly be our "last" chance to win one this year!

 

[Oakland]

Syracuse is a tremendous place for young people. What are you talking about?
We have a very good university, with some specialty programs that are best in the nation.
We have a great business / alumni network, to enhance the value of that degree.
We have historically significant, usually competitive programs in football and basketball.
There is a tremendous entrepreneurship push in this city.
There are immigrants from all over the world.
There are many restaurants featuring ethnic food.
We have the arts, concerts, dance, theater in town.
This is a great place for people to network, and to find mentors.
There is so much diversity in this town.
Affordable cost of living.
Many other well-educated young people all throughout Upstate.

You didn't mention that it is also god's country: lakes, rivers, mountains (knolls, anyways), forests, and lots of lushness; and the four seasons are special.

 

[NorSyr66]

I'm an SU fan and a Boeheim admirer for all he's done for the basketball program and the community. But that also allows me to be a critic when it's appropriate. here is a jumble of thoughts on the topic of where we are, where we have been and where we could be going.

- He doesn't deserve to be fired. It doesn't mean Wildhack can't have "the talk".

- Wildhack may want to bring in his own man, who would be beholden to him for the job. He inherited both Boeheim and Babers.

- I'll miss Jim when he leaves. I like his shows and find his press conferences entertaining, even if they can be exasperating.

- I've posted extensive information on the likelihood of the next coach "following a legend" having a better record and it's not good. It didn't work out in football for us and the jury is very much out in lacrosse.

- The idea of cleaning out the whole staff of people who "bleed orange", which you would be doing by bringing in an outside coach, bothers me. And it might result in a mass exodus of players, (which could happen anyway, I know). I'd also be concerned about players recruited for JB's system having to do something complete different under the new coach. I'd rather promote from within and hope that that coach isn't wedded to everything JB liked or didn't like. If that doesn't work, then we can go outside the program.

- I'm not a big man-to-man vs. zone guy. If you are playing the zone badly, you're not likely to be better in the man-or-man. Zones are designed to disguise individual deficiencies. But watching our zone get torched, it's hard not to think that zones may be outmoded in the Steph Curry Era, where teams are putting up 30-40 treys a game, forcing the zone to extend out too far to maintain its integrity on the inside, where we're really getting killed.

- I do like the press. At least a token press, designed to harass and delay the other team in setting off it's offense could be done and still allow us to drop back into our zone. And a pro-active press put on to surprise the other team could be effective - moreso than waiting until we are 20 points down. This team, with improved athleticism, should have made much more use of it. Jim's contempt for the strategy, when the teams he played for back in the day, is very strange. His willingness to let games be played in half court sets when we aren't very good in them doesn't make much sense.

- Recruiting skinny centers because you've assigned them to cover both posts and both corners hasn't worked for us. We are always getting bullied inside. Guys like Arinze Onuaku, Rick Jackson and Etan Thomas couldn't play for us now.

- Our recruiting has clearly declined. We keep getting guys with triple-digit rankings on 247. Some of those guys turn out to be pretty good and some of our double-digit guys have been disappointments. But over time, if you stop getting highly rated recruits and wind up hoping for "under the radar" guys to make it big, you are going to slip into mediocrity, which we have done over those last 9 years.

- JB said that he recruited 6 frosh to fill out the roster because he didn't want to wait for the transfer portal to open at the end of the season. He didn't say why. Ever since, he's been saying that the teams at the top of the league have more experience than us because they used the portal and we didn't. I think that decision may turn out to be the final straw. Teams in this era aren't going to go to the high schools for starers unless they are Mickey Dees. JB went to the portal for reserves and the high schools for starters. That's backwards thinking.

- Since that first ACC season, when we started 25-0, we've been a middle of the pack ACC team. We were never a middle of the pack Big East team. We've never come close to winning this conference, either in the regular season or the conference tournament. And I'm not convinced this conference is better than the Big East was. We just aren't as good.

- Circumstances, such as the probation, (which can effect your recruiting for years afterwards because you want to avoid further trouble), being in a conference no longer based in the northeast and now the transfer portal and the cesspool of NIL, may mean we can't get back to what we were a decade ago, even under a new coach. But being tied to a 78 year old coach with a sarcastic style and nearly a decade of mediocre records may not be helpful, either.

- I'm just tired of the whole issue and look forward to seeing what a new era could bring, whenever it starts. Then we can start arguing about the new coach.

Thank you for a well thought out post with what I feel sums up many of our feelings, especially your wrap up "I'm just tired of the whole issue and look forward to seeing what a new era could bring, whenever it starts". I am not sure whether I am glad the season is nearly over from all the frustrating up and down games or just to no longer hear the running debate to dump the HOF coach.

 

[grepal]

Can’t you tho

Not without alienating a good portion of the donor base. Usually alumni who who are in their 50's or older. Let us wait, see and support our Orange, regardless of the results.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Not without alienating a good portion of the donor base. Usually alumni who who are in their 50's or older. Let us wait, see and support our Orange, regardless of the results.

Is this a parody

 

[Sherman20]

I’m not sure it can be stated enough about the significant drop off in talent. Coaching only goes so far. The talent gap between these last few years and his first 30 years on the job are night and day. He wants to coach. But he doesn’t want to do anything else that the job requires.

Exactly. He refused to engage with the portal at all, except to get a backup center. His assistants were practically begging him to work the portal but he refused and chose to go into this season playing two freshman at small forward who I think will be good players here in the long run but aren’t ready for prime time. He could have easily landed a top-flight SF from the portal or asked Cole to come back and we would have been a solid NCAA tourney team. His roster construction has been awful for years now and his recruiting effort is lackadaisical.

 

[Sherman20]

Examples of teams reloading through the transfer portal are exceedingly rare. Sort of the exception that proves the rule.

What??? All our old Big East foes improved their rosters significantly with portal additions, including Pitt, UConn, and Providence. Texas did a fabulous job with it two years ago and now it’s finally paying dividends. There are countless other programs that added one or two key guys that really pushed them over the top.

 

[Sherman20]

Pitt is a bubble team. We are arguing over being able to be a bubble team? I thought we were talking about reloading and being successful.

This does not support your argument.

Pitt is in first place in the ACC. They are not a bubble team despite what Lunardi and the bracketologists might be spouting.

 

[Sherman20]

Buckle in.

My interest is in the entirety of the Syracuse basketball program. I’m not really sure where to begin with your post. The fact remains that the current day difference is that one cohort wants JB out now and one wants him out in a season. The fact that some have wanted him out years ago doesn’t change that.

There are a few factors that I guess put me in the JB fanboy club or whatever you guys want to characterize it as. One, there really never was a compelling reason why Syracuse, NY was good at college basketball. We’re not particularly close to the large east coast cities, we rarely have homegrown talent, Syracuse itself is nothing special (to put it nicely), and before the Carrier Dome there was nothing about the facilities to write home about. We had very erratic success with some of the coaches before JB, but he’s clearly the biggest reason Syracuse basketball ever became what we know Syracuse basketball to be. So, that’s point one. Yeah, I know, I know; you can’t let him hold the program hostage and yada yada. Would we have been as good or better over these almost 50 years with a different coach or coaches? Maybe. Probably not, but maybe. We don’t know that, though. We know this.

Point two is that this has not been a 9 season slide. The NCAAT matters. It matters more than the regular season by a decent margin. All factors considered, this has been about a 4 season slide, with a S16 run in there. During JB’s prime, the odd poor season or two would pop up. There was no reason to fire him prior to the 2020 season, imo; at least not for performance. His bad seasons would be followed by good seasons, with no back to back bad seasons. 2020 was a bad season but not reason to fire him on the spot, even considering the seasons prior, imo. 2021 was the S16. Nobody fires a coach coming off a S16 (nobody should, at least). ‘22 was bad and the end of that season marked the point when a forced resignation would have been reasonable.

Three: the sanctions messed everything up and the sanctions largely fell on an inept athletic department, not a rogue or cheating or turning a blind eye coach. I know the facts of the case. I know the NCAA’s findings. That wasn’t JB. I don’t care to argue this point. That wasn’t on him and he seemingly made a commitment to try to get the program back from a mini-death penalty.

Four: His coaching is still good. His recruiting sucks. The fact that he’d still win if he had the talent advantage is what always gave me hope. I always hoped that the recruits, ranked lower than we’d like, would surprise. They mostly have not. And they tend to leave before any meaningful development could occur.

It’s clear that the recruiting isn’t going to pick up and a transfer portal savior ain’t coming. That’s on JB and that’s ultimately why I finally got to the point of being cool with his departure. He hasn’t adjusted to the new recruiting/transfer landscape and his style isn’t conducive to getting a team full of first year guys and incomplete upperclassmen up to speed quick enough. Next season is already lost, so I’m indifferent to that departure being now or then.

“One, there really never was a compelling reason why Syracuse, NY was good at college basketball.”

Large cities are not usually where college basketball fan bases are strongest. Large cities have pro teams that take up most of the air and where fans cluster around the pro team. The strongest college fan bases are away from the NBA cities, in mid-size cities like Syracuse, Lansing, Spokane, Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill, Lexington, Bloomington, Tuscon, Providence, etc. where the college team is the only game in town. Strong fan bases translate into media attention and help attract recruits.

Syracuse is the only P5 school is all of NY State—which is the third largest state in the country. Syracuse draws fans from all over upstate, from Watertown to Binghamton, from Rochester to Albany. Not to mention a strong alumni and fan base in Greater NYC and Long Island.

 

[DilemaCuse]

Agreed.

It’s funny the people who have said he gave his life to this institution. Like he is a God and should be worshipped. Seriously? He has made a fortune coaching a game and he landed a trophy wife because of his fame. He has travelled the world for basketball with Team USA. And people think the university owes him?! No way.

Idol worship, which I don't get.
At the end of the day, he's just a highly compensated employee. School needs to remember that. Fortune 500 companies remove CEOs all the time.

 

[MSOrange]

Idol worship, which I don't get.
At the end of the day, he's just a highly compensated employee. School needs to remember that. Fortune 500 companies remove CEOs all the time.

Sports are sentimental for a lot of people, but like it or not, it is a business and results matter.

 

[newmexicuse]

This has been a fabulous thread with so many great and candid takes.

sometimes there can be valid excuses for losses and setbacks.

sometimes there can be causes for setbacks outside of anybody’s control.

but for me, the bottom line (and it’s been this way for at least the last 6 or 7 seasons) is the eye test.

I am a huge believer that statistics can’t hide what the eye sees, though sometimes the stats support what is being seen.

what my eyes see is a d that breaks down after 2 or 3 passes and that those breakdowns lead to open threes or open dunks. My eyes see defenders scrambling around, out of position for rebounds in the event of a miss. My eyes see not enough talent in the orange jerseys. My eyes see the definition of insanity being animated on a BB court. My eyes see a bewildered old guy clinging to past glories.

what my eyes don’t see is how and when any of this will change.

 

[IthacaMatt]

He’s not. My position is that I don’t care if he leaves now or after next season but he should not coach any longer than that. There’s no realistic scenario where we’re good next year, so I’m just meh about it.

Yeah, but they still have sell tickets to fund so many other sports programs.

 

[Gotothehole]

I am still a JB defender. I’m finally at a place that if he chose to retire I’d be fine with it.
But if he chose to continue id be fine with that too. What can I say… I have a lyrical soul.

He a basketball coach, that’s not winning basketball games. Would you get to keep your job if you’re not doing what you were paid to do.?

 

[kcsu]

Just so you know, Juli came from money. A lot of it.

Julie can buy and sell JB in a heartbeat.

 

[Gotothehole]

Not without alienating a good portion of the donor base. Usually alumni who who are in their 50's or older. Let us wait, see and support our Orange, regardless of the results.

I bet if you take a poll or attend any alumni events most people wanna move on

 

[IthacaMatt]

“One, there really never was a compelling reason why Syracuse, NY was good at college basketball.”

Large cities are not usually where college basketball fan bases are strongest. Large cities have pro teams that take up most of the air and where fans cluster around the pro team. The strongest college fan bases are away from the NBA cities, in mid-size cities like Syracuse, Lansing, Spokane, Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill, Lexington, Bloomington, Tuscon, Providence, etc. where the college team is the only game in town. Strong fan bases translate into media attention and help attract recruits.

Syracuse is the only P5 school is all of NY State—which is the third or fourth largest state in the country. Syracuse draws fans from all over upstate, from Watertown to Binghamton, from Rochester to Albany.

Syracuse had one of the original NBA franchises. The Nationals. They played here for 12 years, and we won an NBA Championship in 1955.

In a 10 year stretch from 1952 to 1961, we won the championship, lost in the finals, and lost in the Eastern Conference Finals to the Celtics five times.

Syracuse was crazy about basketball, and always has been.

Jim Boeheim didn't invent basketball in Syracuse.

The 24 Second shot clock was invented here in 1954. The Syracuse Nats, like SU football, helped break the color barrier in the NBA with Manny Breland.

At the college level, Syracuse had a coach in the 19-Teens and Early 20s named Edmund Dollard who won almost 72% of his games (151-59) including a Helms National Championship team that went 16-1.

Next, Lew Andreas coached us from the late 20s to the 1950 season. He made the post season 3 times in his last 6 years (when post-season tournaments like the NIT and NCAA were brand new), and also won a Helms National Championship. His career record was 358-135, almost 73% wins.

Even in the 50s and early 60s under Mark Guley, we made an Elite 8 and had a winning record. Guley had losing records in his last 2 seasons and was replaced by Fred Lewis. It only took Lewis 1 year to get us back to a winning record.

Fred Lewis went 91-57 (.614), but also made an Elite 8 and the NIT twice, when that was still a big deal. Fred Lewis only had ONE MORE losing season, and was replaced by Roy Danforth.

In year one, Danforth had a losing record. But by his 3rd year, we were back in the NIT, beginning a string of 6 straight post-season births. The first 2 were in the NIT before the NCAA expanded beyond 32 teams. The 4 straight NCAAs including the 1975 Final Four, and a Sweet 16 a couple years before that. Danforth's record was 148-71 (almost 68%).

So, just for the record, Syracuse has pretty much ALWAYS been good at basketball.

Past coaches were fired for just 1 or 2 losing seasons, and the people who replaced them never took more than a couple years to be right back to winning ways.

So all you "Chicken Littles" out there who think the SKY WILL BE FALLING if we replace JB; go read some history.

Other coaches would have been fired by now. And our average recovery to post-season is TWO YEARS. Let's start the clock, shall we?

 

[Gotothehole]

“One, there really never was a compelling reason why Syracuse, NY was good at college basketball.”

Large cities are not usually where college basketball fan bases are strongest. Large cities have pro teams that take up most of the air and where fans cluster around the pro team. The strongest college fan bases are away from the NBA cities, in mid-size cities like Syracuse, Lansing, Spokane, Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill, Lexington, Bloomington, Tuscon, Providence, etc. where the college team is the only game in town. Strong fan bases translate into media attention and help attract recruits.

Syracuse is the only P5 school is all of NY State—which is the third or fourth largest state in the country. Syracuse draws fans from all over upstate, from Watertown to Binghamton, from Rochester to Albany.

Add New York city jersey Washington DC Maryland to that list

 

[Newhouser]

Agreed.

It’s funny the people who have said he gave his life to this institution. Like he is a God and should be worshipped. Seriously? He has made a fortune coaching a game and he landed a trophy wife because of his fame. He has travelled the world for basketball with Team USA. And people think the university owes him?! No way.

The second run with Team USA still bothers me.

 

[newmexicuse]

Syracuse had one of the original NBA franchises. The Nationals. They played here for 12 years, and we won an NBA Championship in 1955.

In a 10 year stretch from 1952 to 1961, we won the championship, lost in the finals, and lost in the Eastern Conference Finals to the Celtics five times.

Syracuse was crazy about basketball, and always has been.

Jim Boeheim didn't invent basketball in Syracuse.

The 24 Second shot clock was invented here in 1954. The Syracuse Nats, like SU football, helped break the color barrier in the NBA with Manny Breland.

At the college level, Syracuse had a coach in the 19-Teens and Early 20s named Edmund Dollard who won almost 72% of his games (151-59) including a Helms National Championship team that went 16-1.

Next, Lew Andreas coached us from the late 20s to the 1950 season. He made the post season 3 times in his last 6 years, and also won a Helms National Championship. His career record was 358-135, almost 73% wins.

Even in the 50s and early 60s under Mark Guley, we made an Elite 8 and had a winning record. Guley had losing records in his last 2 seasons and was replaced by Fred Lewis. It only took Lewis 1 year to get us back to a winning record.

Fred Lewis went 91-57 (.614), but also made an Elite 8 and the NIT twice, when that was still a big deal. Fred Lewis only had ONE MORE losing season, and was replaced by Roy Danforth.

In year one, Danforth had a losing record. But by his 3rd year, we were back in the NIT, beginning a string of 6 straight post-season births. The first 2 were in the NIT before the NCAA expanded beyond 32 teams. The 4 straight NCAAs including the 1975 Final Four, and a Sweet 16 a couple years before that. Danforth's record was 148-71 (almost 68%).

So, just for the record, Syracuse has pretty much ALWAYS been good at basketball.

Past coaches were fired for just 1 or 2 losing seasons, and the people who replaced them never took more than a couple years to be right back to winning ways.

So all you "Chicken Littles" out there who think the SKY WILL BE FALLING if we replace JB; go read some history.

Other coaches would have been fired by now. And our average recovery to post-season is TWO YEARS. Let's start the clock, shall we?

Fabulous Post - I wish I could double like it. I owe you one

 

[Chip]

Hahahahaha.

Of course there’s a plan. They’re going to hire a replacement. That’s the plan.

The most overrated phrase in this country, whether it be in business, sports, anything really, is "there's a plan in place"

It's a meaningless buzzword.

Syracuse basketball is obviously no different.