Are there any Pro-Shafer's left?

[Scooch]

Here's something I'm wondering - So last season, Lester had to roll with McDonald's offense, because you can't change offense mid-season. This was given as a reason to excuse, along with the injuries, how bad the offense was. This offseason, he geared the offense to the player's strengths. Considering Hunt was expected to be the starting QB, I take it to mean the offense was really designed for Hunt. At this point we're an option offense. Which is interesting, because it seems to me that one of either of these statements must be true: the staff expected to run the option with Hunt, or the staff changed the offense mid-season. But... you can't change an offense mid-season. And they wouldn't want Hunt coming off an injury running the ball much, right?

I don't think they "couldn't" change the offense last year. And they obviously did to some extent, if only due to the rotating parade of QBs they employed as injuries struck. They just said that they couldn't. Coaches lie all the time, no one should believe anything they say, really.

And I absolutely believe they intended Hunt to run. I mean that's the only thing he does well. And Leter has doubled down on that with Dungey, which led to my weekly cries that he was going to get the kid killed.

 

[CuseOnly]

2 of the top candidates have been mentioned on this board

No kidding...what coach hasn't been mentioned on this board...?

 

[GHLF]

Perhaps if Shafer didn't hire a dummy as his OC, then hadn't had to fire said dummy 16 games into his tenure, and then hadn't decided to hire an OC with a completely different system that required different kinds of athletes... Nahhh. That was beyond his control. Oy vey.

You could be right

 

[Chris02M]

No kidding...what coach hasn't been mentioned on this board...?

a return trip for grob to finish the job?

 

[Crusty]

Here's something I'm wondering -

So last season, Lester had to roll with McDonald's offense, because you can't change offense mid-season. This was given as a reason to excuse, along with the injuries, how bad the offense was.

This offseason, he geared the offense to the player's strengths. Considering Hunt was expected to be the starting QB, I take it to mean the offense was really designed for Hunt.

At this point we're an option offense. Which is interesting, because it seems to me that one of either of these statements must be true: the staff expected to run the option with Hunt, or the staff changed the offense mid-season.

But... you can't change an offense mid-season. And they wouldn't want Hunt coming off an injury running the ball much, right?

Don't agree with your premise. IMO the offense was not designed specifically for Hunt. Lester ran his offense and Hunt (and AJ) simply fit it. Lester also recruited two QB's with similar attributes.

We are what I guess could be called a "hybrid option" offense (what Lester called "multiple"). It is a strange combination since we do not have a heavy smash mouth back for the line plunge which is essential for the triple option. Our option is dependent on a deep threat, which Dungey gives us and Mahoney doesn't.

Successful options teams run it on almost every play. They line up in the basically the same formation and challenge you to be disciplined for 60 minutes. Ours runs the option to varying degrees depending on the style of defense we are playing.

In short, we have an offense unsuited to this level unless we want to become a true triple offense team.

 

[supp]

It is such a shame. This could've worked out for him if he were more open to people outside of WMU and to math. The guy cares, he can run a program, he just blew it on offensethe whole time and picked a horrible time to have a disastrous defense

I hope he learns, gets some time to really reflect, change, and have great success

You make a good point, except for the "run a program" part. Shafer's biggest problem seems to be that he didn't have much of a plan as head coach, other than reassembling his buddies in Syracuse. The defense, he knew. He was going to run his d and do it with someone who shared his philosophy. But the approach on offense was remarkably disinterested, as if anything his chosen OC slapped together could work. Well, that sounds to me like someone who wasn't ready to be a head coach and hadn't spent a ton of time thinking about how he'd run his own program outside of reuniting his friends. Sure, all head coaches draw on their social network to a certain extent to fill their staff but not at the expense of a long-term vision and strategy.

And so decisions are made but without any kind of systematic thinking. We as fans see the clearest evidence of this lack of systematic thinking during games but it's everywhere. In my mind, you're either a systematic thinker or you're not. I don't think Shafer has shown much evidence that he is one. His ceiling is DC.

 

[GoSU96]

It is such a shame. This could've worked out for him if he were more open to people outside of WMU and to math. The guy cares, he can run a program, he just blew it on offensethe whole time and picked a horrible time to have a disastrous defense

I hope he learns, gets some time to really reflect, change, and have great success

Victim of circumstances and a really, really, really, bad job of putting all his eggs in one basket.

 

[orangenirvana]

Yes, I'm still in his corner.

If you tell me that we are going to get rid of Shafer and ante up to bring in guy who has had consistent success at the P5 level, I'd say, "Go for it".

But, if you are going to bring in yet another coordinator, hope that he can get it done at the P5 level and have to wait another 3 years to have a clue as to whether he'll be successful or not, then I say give Shafer one more year with a (hopefully) healthy, more experienced team.

The relentless tide of negative posts about Shafer on this board has no impact on me. The cumulative football IQ of most of the posters on this board could fit on the head of a pin.

Let's use the "Fire Shafer"'s most relentless proponent as an example: Orangenirvana.

In 2011 he was telling the board that we should fire Hackett, that Marrone couldn't coach and that we needed an upgrade at quarterback and that we'd never win with Nassib as our QB.

Fast forward to 2013 and, all of a sudden, Marrone is a "great head coach".

Really?

So, in 2015, all of a sudden I'm supposed to believe that this poster knows what he's talking about?

Gimme a break.

Quantity <> Quality...

I'm honored of that title and that you think enough of me to remember my thoughts from four years ago better than I even do. Sort of creepy, actually.

All I want is a coach that has common sense and to see an explosive passing offense in the Dome before I die. Is that too much to ask?

 

[orangenirvana]

You could be right

Don't back down now. Keep fighting the good fight - for the good of society!

 

[orangeinjersey]

retain! oh wait

 

[Forza Azzurri]

I'm honored of that title and that you think enough of me to remember my thoughts from four years ago better than I even do. Sort of creepy, actually.

Took me about 10 minutes...

Given how adamant you've been about the necessity of firing him, I just wanted to see if, historically, your posts have, in retrospect, demonstrated that you know what you are posting about.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

Wish I had a friend as loyal as you.

It really isn't loyalty.

As I said, if I thought we were going to go out and get a proven success at the P5 level, I'd be all-in.

I just think that we are, once again, going to do it on the cheap and hire some mid-major coordinator and hope that it works out.

Shafer hasn't helped himself with some of the in-game blunders but go back to 2011, especially, and re-read the posts about Marrone - lots of similar complaints.

The injury situation has been horrific.

I'm just not convinced that Shafer is ready for the scrap heap if we are going to go out and replace him with someone who is not a clear upgrade.

Lots of posters who are now calling for Shafer's scalp were fawning all over Shafer and calling him a great hire.

Shows how much those posters knew...

 

[Chris02M]

It really isn't loyalty.

As I said, if I thought we were going to go out and get a proven success at the P5 level, I'd be all-in.

I just think that we are, once again, going to do it on the cheap and hire some mid-major coordinator and hope that it works out.

Shafer hasn't helped himself with some of the in-game blunders but go back to 2011, especially, and re-read the posts about Marrone - lots of similar complaints.

The injury situation has been horrific.

I'm just not convinced that Shafer is ready for the scrap heap if we are going to go out and replace him with someone who is not a clear upgrade.

Lots of posters who are now calling for Shafer's scalp were fawning all over Shafer and calling him a great hire.

Shows how much those posters knew...

the injury excuse worked last year this year we havent been any more injured than opponents

 

[orangenirvana]

Took me about 10 minutes...

Given how adamant you've been about the necessity of firing him, I just wanted to see if, historically, your posts have, in retrospect, demonstrated that you know what you are posting about.

That's weird but I'm not one to judge how one spends his or her time.

I'm not as adamant about firing Shafer as I am about demonstrating how poor his game management decisions are and how excited I am about the head coaching possibilities that are out there. If Coyle decides to keep him for another year, I won't be grabbing my pitch fork. I just know that there are better options out there and am hopeful that Syracuse has the resources and attraction to land one of them.

As for Marrone, Hackett and Nassib in 2011 - all three were not very good that year, but I definitely wasn't calling for Marrone's firing. Maybe Hackett but he proved me wrong the next season by coming up with a great scheme and Nassib was one of the most improved QB's in the country. If adapting one's viewpoints based on results is looked down upon by the likes of you then so be it.

 

[HOFCeluck]

A mid major coordinator? Seriously?

 

[Forza Azzurri]

That's weird but I'm not one to judge how one spends his or her time.

Sure sounds like you are.

I just know that there are better options out there and am hopeful that Syracuse has the resources and attraction to land one of them.

I completely agree with the first part of this statement and am highly skeptical of the second part.

As for Marrone, Hackett and Nassib in 2011 - all three were not very good that year, but I definitely wasn't calling for Marrone's firing. Maybe Hackett but he proved me wrong the next season by coming up with a great scheme and Nassib was one of the most improved QB's in the country. If adapting one's viewpoints based on results is looked down upon by the likes of you then so be it.

Adapting one's viewpoint is one way to spin it.

Another is to say you had absolutely no clue what you were talking about when it came to judging Nassib's abilities as a quarterback and Hackett's ability as an OC.

That is a harsh way to spin it but the reality is that neither you, nor I, nor 99% of the posters on the board really have any clue when it comes to judging football talent and coaching ability.

 

[FAL]

Don't agree with your premise. IMO the offense was not designed specifically for Hunt. Lester ran his offense and Hunt (and AJ) simply fit it. Lester also recruited two QB's with similar attributes.

We are what I guess could be called a "hybrid option" offense (what Lester called "multiple"). It is a strange combination since we do not have a heavy smash mouth back for the line plunge which is essential for the triple option. Our option is dependent on a deep threat, which Dungey gives us and Mahoney doesn't.

Successful options teams run it on almost every play. They line up in the basically the same formation and challenge you to be disciplined for 60 minutes. Ours runs the option to varying degrees depending on the style of defense we are playing.

In short, we have an offense unsuited to this level unless we want to become a true triple offense team.

Oh boy! So missed Jerome Smith last year and a similar back this year. Delone Carter comes to mind as well... Coulda, shoulda, woulda...

 

[SUATO92]

Sure sounds like you are.



I completely agree with the first part of this statement and am highly skeptical of the second part.



Adapting one's viewpoint is one way to spin it.

Another is to say you had absolutely no clue what you were talking about when it came to judging Nassib's abilities as a quarterback and Hackett's ability as an OC.

That is a harsh way to spin it but the reality is that neither you, nor I, nor 99% of the posters on the board really have any clue when it comes to judging football talent and coaching ability.

Well a certain football coaching legend once said "you are what your record says you are." I'm trying to figure out what 3-8 following a 3-9 looks like in your world. Those 99% who you claim aren't football experts don't need to be...they are consumers though and Syracuse wants their but in seats at the dome and the current god awful product isn't going to get that done.

 

[Crusty]

It really isn't loyalty.

As I said, if I thought we were going to go out and get a proven success at the P5 level, I'd be all-in.

I just think that we are, once again, going to do it on the cheap and hire some mid-major coordinator and hope that it works out.

I don't think anybody is talking about a mid-major coordinator. Posters have been fairly reasonable and I must say pretty knowledgeable about coaching replacements. I also think everyone shares your sentiments about funding a staff at competitive levels, I know I do.

Shafer hasn't helped himself with some of the in-game blunders but go back to 2011, especially, and re-read the posts about Marrone - lots of similar complaints.

True enough, but everyone also aknowledges that Marrone was a good game planner and made good in game adjustments, which cannot be said of Shafer.

The injury situation has been horrific.

I bought that last year, but not this year.

I'm just not convinced that Shafer is ready for the scrap heap if we are going to go out and replace him with someone who is not a clear upgrade.

Everyone is hoping that it will be a clear upgrade and there does appear to be a wealth of good candidates. Again, I agree we have to pay to get them and a good supporting staff.

Lots of posters who are now calling for Shafer's scalp were fawning all over Shafer and calling him a great hire.

Shows how much those posters knew...

I don't know why this is an issue. After all, that is an argument for doing nothing ever. I thought Shafer was a good hire as I thought he would develop into a good HC, but he has not given me any reason to confirm my faith.

At some point the results are so poor as to defy any rationalization. I think that is where we are now.

 

[Cuse'91]

Don't agree with your premise. IMO the offense was not designed specifically for Hunt. Lester ran his offense and Hunt (and AJ) simply fit it. Lester also recruited two QB's with similar attributes.

We are what I guess could be called a "hybrid option" offense (what Lester called "multiple"). It is a strange combination since we do not have a heavy smash mouth back for the line plunge which is essential for the triple option. Our option is dependent on a deep threat, which Dungey gives us and Mahoney doesn't.

Successful options teams run it on almost every play. They line up in the basically the same formation and challenge you to be disciplined for 60 minutes. Ours runs the option to varying degrees depending on the style of defense we are playing.

In short, we have an offense unsuited to this level unless we want to become a true triple offense team.

But I love how the coaching staff said they were going to run a "smash mouth" offense, esp. Adam... Yeah, we don't have a massive dominating line OR a true bruiser power back, but yeah, we are going to be "smash mouth."
Please...

 

[rrlbees]

the injury excuse worked last year this year we havent been any more injured than opponents

I don't really agree. I don't look at just the in season injuries but also preseason injuries, the dismissals, and other losses. From the end of last season, this team isn't close to what we thought it would be from a personnel standpoint.

Lost top 3 QBs. Hunt, Dungey, Long.
Lost too TE. Moore.
Lost Broyld. Even lost Lewis some.
Lost a few on the DL. Johnson, Williams and a couple that escape memory.
Lost Arciniega
Lost our best performing LB in Bennett
Have had to play a real young DB. Even a couple of those like Winfield and Ellison got hurt. Williams has been hurt. We've been playing a soph and 3 freshman.
Other players have been out a game or two as expected.

Without having a fully stocked quality 1-85 depth chart, we've played short handed all year. QB is the most important position on the field IMO. We've used 4, lost 3 and have used a walk on a lot.

We've done a lot of patch work this year.

 

[Crusty]

I don't really agree. I don't look at just the in season injuries but also preseason injuries, the dismissals, and other losses. From the end of last season, this team isn't close to what we thought it would be from a personnel standpoint.

Lost top 3 QBs. Hunt, Dungey, Long.
Lost too TE. Moore.
Lost Broyld. Even lost Lewis some.
Lost a few on the DL. Johnson, Williams and a couple that escape memory.
Lost Arciniega
Lost our best performing LB in Bennett
Have had to play a real young DB. Even a couple of those like Winfield and Ellison got hurt. Williams has been hurt. We've been playing a soph and 3 freshman.
Other players have been out a game or two as expected.

Without having a fully stocked quality 1-85 depth chart, we've played short handed all year. QB is the most important position on the field IMO. We've used 4, lost 3 and have used a walk on a lot.

We've done a lot of patch work this year.

That looks like a typical season injury report for a P5 team doesn't it?

 

[Chris02M]

I don't really agree. I don't look at just the in season injuries but also preseason injuries, the dismissals, and other losses. From the end of last season, this team isn't close to what we thought it would be from a personnel standpoint.

Lost top 3 QBs. Hunt, Dungey, Long.
Lost too TE. Moore.
Lost Broyld. Even lost Lewis some.
Lost a few on the DL. Johnson, Williams and a couple that escape memory.
Lost Arciniega
Lost our best performing LB in Bennett
Have had to play a real young DB. Even a couple of those like Winfield and Ellison got hurt. Williams has been hurt. We've been playing a soph and 3 freshman.
Other players have been out a game or two as expected.

Without having a fully stocked quality 1-85 depth chart, we've played short handed all year. QB is the most important position on the field IMO. We've used 4, lost 3 and have used a walk on a lot.

We've done a lot of patch work this year.

i was talking more during the season than preseason injuries or dismissals

 

[rrlbees]

That looks like a typical season injury report for a P5 team doesn't it?

Not to me. The team we out in the field doesn't look anything like what was expected. Some of these kids were projected to be skout team players or maybe just specials.

On the game yesterday, they mentioned 68% of our offense has come from freshman. We had 2 freshman at DT. And the only non freshman defensive backfield was a sophomore.

Very young and a ton of losses preseason and in season.

 

[orangenirvana]

I completely agree with the first part of this statement and am highly skeptical of the second part.

I'm more optimistic than that.

Adapting one's viewpoint is one way to spin it.

Another is to say you had absolutely no clue what you were talking about when it came to judging Nassib's abilities as a quarterback and Hackett's ability as an OC.

That is a harsh way to spin it but the reality is that neither you, nor I, nor 99% of the posters on the board really have any clue when it comes to judging football talent and coaching ability.

"Judging Nassib's abilities as a quarterback" - my criticism was more toward Marrone and Hackett before 2012 as to why Nassib wasn't progressing more. Many blamed his physical limitations - which turned out to be misguided considering he's still making a living in the NFL today.

Gerg Robinson has forgotten more about football than the vast majority on this forum has ever known about the sport - that doesn't mean we don't know what we're talking about when we say he sucked as Syracuse's head coach.

Maybe Shafer will be retained and the light bulb will go on and he'll suddenly start making decisions that make mathematical sense and won't put franchise players in harm's way and will suddenly know how to defend Georgia Tech's offense and will hire an OC with expertise of the Air Raid or something similar. People can change. We'll see what happens.