Are we the worst P-5 football program?

[FreakTalksAboutSU]

Everyone has injuries and opt outs.

But this doesnt fit the narrative that is coming from the top

 

[Cusefan69]

Why are you asking? Do you want the answer to be yes? And what is it is? Do we take our ball and go home?

I am with you. No value or anything to this question or thread. I just wasted 60 seconds of my life looking at this. This thread...

 

[FreakTalksAboutSU]

I am with you. No value or anything to this question or thread. I just wasted 60 seconds of my life looking at this. This thread...
View attachment 191713

Would have been 20 had you decided not to post this #JustSayin

 

[Orangejet]

Illinois has been bad for 20+ years now but they would smoke the Cuse this year and seem to be on the right path moving forward.

 

[FreakTalksAboutSU]

My take, and its an unpopular opinion absolutely positively ripe for flaming by the majority here, is that Syracuse fans, as a whole, get more angry at those who call out our ineptitude than we do at those who are responsible for it. The defeatism amongst this fan base is incredible.

We make excuses more than any other fan base in college football. "can't recruit in Syracuse...northern city no one wants to travel to". Boise State says hi. (yeah I know I am inviting a dozen excuse makers ready to explain ad nauseum why Idaho is so much more attractive then CNY...whatever, comes with the territory)...And then we call out anyone who doesn't take on that approach. Yes. My thread here is the problem. Not the fact that we still cant recruit for crap and didnt even get an uptick at all after Dino's amazing sportcenter ready speeches and a 10 win season. Not the fact that our playcalling is a joke. My thread. The fact that I can't just whistle away a 30 point embarrassment to the same COVID that has hit every other program. That is the real thing we need to be concerned with here.


OK, let the excuse making resume.

 

[McNabb2Brominski]

If Cisco, Trill and TD don’t get injured/opt out we’re sittin at 4 or 5 wins right now.

 

[Alsacs]

Part of our problem has been before we joined the ACC we overscheduled in the nonconference.

It makes sense to schedule strong nonconference games.
Hell in 2009 Marrone’s first year we played 3 Big Ten games in the nonconference.
Minnesota/Penn State/Northwestern all in one year.

We were coming off GRob and were rebuilding. We didn’t need to do that.

That chit hurt the program.

We are finally spending the money to be more competitive in football.
Dino has lost a lot of good will.
The school has done a lot to accommodate him and the product on the field this year is poor because of coaching more than anything.
The players are playing hard they aren’t getting help.

The coaching staff needs to do a better job.

 

[FreakTalksAboutSU]

Part of our problem has been before we joined the ACC we overscheduled in the nonconference.

It makes sense to schedule strong nonconference games.
Hell in 2009 Marrone’s first year we played 3 Big Ten games in the nonconference.
Minnesota/Penn State/Northwestern all in one year.

We were coming off GRob and were rebuilding. We didn’t need to do that.

That chit hurt the program.



We are finally spending the money to be more competitive in football.
Dino has lost a lot of good will.
The school has done a lot to accommodate him and the product on the field this year is poor because of coaching more than anything.
The players are playing hard they aren’t getting help.

The coaching staff needs to do a better job.

This makes sense

 

[GoSU96]

Everyone has injuries and opt outs.

You don't think that who, how many, position group concentration, and where that roster started makes a difference?

There isn't a team in the country that can start 6 freshmen on defense, a late recruit true frosh at QB on the road behind a banged up OL and expect to be competitive with anyone.

 

[GoSU96]

Year	Wins	Losses	Coach	Bowl
2000​	6​	5​	Pasqualoni
2001​	10​	3​	Pasqualoni	Insight.com-w
2002​	4​	8​	Pasqualoni
2003​	6​	6​	Pasqualoni
2004​	6​	6​	Pasqualoni	Champs-l
2005​	1​	10​	Gerg
2006​	4​	8​	Gerg
2007​	2​	10​	Gerg
2008​	3​	9​	Gerg
2009​	4​	8​	Marrone
2010​	8​	5​	Marrone	Pinstripe-w
2011​	5​	7​	Marrone
2012​	8​	5​	Marrone	Pinstripe-w
2013​	7​	6​	Shafer	Texas-w
2014​	3​	9​	Shafer
2015​	4​	8​	Shafer
2016​	4​	8​	Babers
2017​	4​	8​	Babers
2018​	10​	3​	Babers	Camping World-w
2019​	5​	7​	Babers
2020​			Babers
	Wins	Losses
Total	104​	139​
Average Record	5​	7​
Pasqualoni*	32​	28​		101-59-1 total record for P
Gerg	10​	37​
Marrone	25​	25​
Shafer	14​	23​
Babers	23​	26​

This shows me that with the right leadership this program can be at a minimum competitive, and that bad decisions and management by the AD dept can crater the performance of the program.

P, Marrone, Babers (putting aside this years disaster) 80-79, the other guys 24-60.

When you have a coach in place that has proven he can do it, support that coach, don't cut and run and think change for change sake is going to lead to better results.

Stablity and resources, dispassionate assessment, not chasing results, is the way to go.

 

[Chip]

Part of our problem has been before we joined the ACC we overscheduled in the nonconference.

It makes sense to schedule strong nonconference games.
Hell in 2009 Marrone’s first year we played 3 Big Ten games in the nonconference.
Minnesota/Penn State/Northwestern all in one year.

We were coming off GRob and were rebuilding. We didn’t need to do that.

That chit hurt the program.

We are finally spending the money to be more competitive in football.
Dino has lost a lot of good will.
The school has done a lot to accommodate him and the product on the field this year is poor because of coaching more than anything.
The players are playing hard they aren’t getting help.

The coaching staff needs to do a better job.

This is a more meaningful conversation, to me anyway.

Part of the problem at SU, is that the fanbase not only wants a winner, but they want interesting opponents. That's always been the case. Ticket sales and concession money are real, and necessary.

When we were in that watered down Big East, it was a tough spot to get consistent crowd sizes. So they tried the approach of bigger names. Some very big (ND, Penn State, USC), some that were somewhat bigger but hopefully beatable (Northwestern, Minnesota, Mizzou). I mean, 2012 alone was Northwestern, Minny, Mizzou, USC.

Wildhack has certainly downshifted in the world of ACC games. But it's not a perfect science. Liberty seemed perfect for FBS wins. But hired Hugh Freeze and are way ahead of schedule. Rutgers brought back Schiano and yeah, they're 1-4 but if you can't see a difference, come on. Their games were over before they started last year. Our game next year will be a big fat circle on their schedule. Even Western Michigan, with Lester, is putting up huge offensive numbers.

You play unexciting teams, you don't get fans or ticket sales, but now they're actually playing better than the team you thought you scheduled. It's lose-lose.

I don't even know the best answer anymore. Maybe you take a chance with big name teams who are struggling to get to back to their glory days. Like a Nebraska or a Tennessee or Michigan State. You can get a good TV spot, gets fans in the Dome, maybe even win the game. Not the 2019 or 2020 version of Syracuse of course.

 

[Shrmdougluvr]

Look at that domination in bowl games (other than 2004, and we hoisted that loser out on his own pitard). I'd say you could stack this bowl winning percentage up with any other program over the past 20 years.

 

[Alsacs]

This is a more meaningful conversation, to me anyway.

Part of the problem at SU, is that the fanbase not only wants a winner, but they want interesting opponents. That's always been the case. Ticket sales and concession money are real, and necessary.

When we were in that watered down Big East, it was a tough spot to get consistent crowd sizes. So they tried the approach of bigger names. Some very big (ND, Penn State, USC), some that were somewhat bigger but hopefully beatable (Northwestern, Minnesota, Mizzou). I mean, 2012 alone was Northwestern, Minny, Mizzou, USC.

Wildhack has certainly downshifted in the world of ACC games. But it's not a perfect science. Liberty seemed perfect for FBS wins. But hired Hugh Freeze and are way ahead of schedule. Rutgers brought back Schiano and yeah, they're 1-4 but if you can't see a difference, come on. Their games were over before they started last year. Our game next year will be a big fat circle on their schedule. Even Western Michigan, with Lester, is putting up huge offensive numbers.

You play unexciting teams, you don't get fans or ticket sales, but now they're actually playing better than the team you thought you scheduled. It's lose-lose.

I don't even know the best answer anymore. Maybe you take a chance with big name teams who are struggling to get to back to their glory days. Like a Nebraska or a Tennessee or Michigan State. You can get a good TV spot, gets fans in the Dome, maybe even win the game. Not the 2019 or 2020 version of Syracuse of course.

Winning brings fans.
If we had talent and were like a USC I get the excuse the fans need brand name games.
Stupidly this fanbase didn’t get we were never a talent powerhouse.
So winning games consistently should have been the goal.

I give Wildhack and Babers credit for knowing what we need schedule wise.

If a blue blood comes calling like LSU okay schedule the series but make sure we got 3 other winnable games that year.

We have to play 1 P5 nonconference game but it should be on level with the program.
Not Wisconsin but Purdue like we scheduled.
Not Oklahoma but West Virginia.
Not Ohio State but Rutgers.

Looking at our nonconference schedules from the 2000s we over scheduled.

 

[Chip]

My take, and its an unpopular opinion absolutely positively ripe for flaming by the majority here, is that Syracuse fans, as a whole, get more angry at those who call out our ineptitude than we do at those who are responsible for it. The defeatism amongst this fan base is incredible.

We make excuses more than any other fan base in college football. "can't recruit in Syracuse...northern city no one wants to travel to". Boise State says hi. (yeah I know I am inviting a dozen excuse makers ready to explain ad nauseum why Idaho is so much more attractive then CNY...whatever, comes with the territory)...And then we call out anyone who doesn't take on that approach. Yes. My thread here is the problem. Not the fact that we still cant recruit for crap and didnt even get an uptick at all after Dino's amazing sportcenter ready speeches and a 10 win season. Not the fact that our playcalling is a joke. My thread. The fact that I can't just whistle away a 30 point embarrassment to the same COVID that has hit every other program. That is the real thing we need to be concerned with here.


OK, let the excuse making resume.

I think you should have led with this instead of your original subject title.

The part that has been bothering me is the thought that we'll so rarely have a good offensive line. I've admitted as much in posts, because it certainly shows over the years.

But why? I mean, there are so many G5 teams we play who have functional lines. Not great, but functional. Ours has just been abysmal. Tackles getting beat easily. Guards letting people run by them because they were looking at one guy to block and a DE stunting wasn't on their radar. A center who can't snap and block at the same time. Run blocking has somewhat improved but it's not at all consistent. Pass blocking has some good moments, but more often not.

Maybe kcsu is right and it's all Cavanaugh. Maybe it's just an injury/COVID anomaly, but what about last year? It needs to change quickly because the offense is paralyzed without it. Having Bleich next year will help, but he's only 1 of 5. Healthy Dakota will help too. But need more, and some depth.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

I don't even know the best answer anymore. Maybe you take a chance with big name teams who are struggling to get to back to their glory days. Like a Nebraska or a Tennessee or Michigan State. You can get a good TV spot, gets fans in the Dome, maybe even win the game. Not the 2019 or 2020 version of Syracuse of course.

We need a P5 game for 2024, then we're booked until 2027.

Care to guess who'll be struggling then?

 

[Chip]

We need a P5 game for 2024, then we're booked until 2027.

Care to guess who'll be struggling then?

Nebraska and Tennessee. Their problems are systemic. Their fans don't get it.

As good a bet as anyone.

If they're good, and we lose well... We've lost at home to Middle Tennessee State and Liberty in the Dino era. I'm sure we'll all get over it.

 

[Alsacs]

We need a P5 game for 2024, then we're booked until 2027.

Care to guess who'll be struggling then?

Kansas, Oregon State, Rutgers, Illinois, Arizona, Vanderbilt,

 

[Chip]

Winning brings fans.
If we had talent and were like a USC I get the excuse the fans need brand name games.
Stupidly this fanbase didn’t get we were never a talent powerhouse.
So winning games consistently should have been the goal.

I give Wildhack and Babers credit for knowing what we need schedule wise.

If a blue blood comes calling like LSU okay schedule the series but make sure we got 3 other winnable games that year.

We have to play 1 P5 nonconference game but it should be on level with the program.
Not Wisconsin but Purdue like we scheduled.
Not Oklahoma but West Virginia.
Not Ohio State but Rutgers.

Looking at our nonconference schedules from the 2000s we over scheduled.

Winning brings fans, and will continue to do so, but Syracuse has always been a little unique, especially non conference.

Scooch and I bring this up often. The year is 1991. We're coming off an impressive beatdown of Arizona in a bowl game. We're ranked and loaded with young talent. We open with boring Vandy in front of an announced and sleepy crowd of only 35,000. Two weeks later we play #5 Spurrier and his Gators in the Dome in front of about 50k insane people.

It's just how it works here.

 

[Alsacs]

Nebraska and Tennessee. Their problems are systemic. Their fans don't get it.

As good a bet as anyone.

If they're good, and we lose well... We've lost at home to Middle Tennessee State and Liberty in the Dino era. I'm sure we'll all get over it.

Want no part of Tennessee their program isn’t far off.
It’s bad QB play.
I have done well betting Tennessee games. Against them for the record.

They have real talent. Marrone would be a good HC for Tennessee. They recruit talent but don’t have good game plans.

Nebraska can’t recruit TX anymore that well.
In the Big XII they had games in TX so they could recruit CA, FL and TX for athletes but going to the Big Ten messed that up.

We should find a way to play Rutgers 4 times a decade. It’s a game we can win any year and they will feel the same way.

 

[GoSU96]

My take, and its an unpopular opinion absolutely positively ripe for flaming by the majority here, is that Syracuse fans, as a whole, get more angry at those who call out our ineptitude than we do at those who are responsible for it. The defeatism amongst this fan base is incredible.

We make excuses more than any other fan base in college football. "can't recruit in Syracuse...northern city no one wants to travel to". Boise State says hi. (yeah I know I am inviting a dozen excuse makers ready to explain ad nauseum why Idaho is so much more attractive then CNY...whatever, comes with the territory)...And then we call out anyone who doesn't take on that approach. Yes. My thread here is the problem. Not the fact that we still cant recruit for crap and didnt even get an uptick at all after Dino's amazing sportcenter ready speeches and a 10 win season. Not the fact that our playcalling is a joke. My thread. The fact that I can't just whistle away a 30 point embarrassment to the same COVID that has hit every other program. That is the real thing we need to be concerned with here.


OK, let the excuse making resume.

But the recruiting is better, is it throwing 20 game ready guys a year out there, no, but there are some, and the other ones have better frames and measurables but need seasoning and an offseason college strength and conditioning program, which they have missed a cycle of, and a lot of kids that are now playing have never had. Overall team speed is much improved, and that is important. Overall height is improved, which is important. The young kids are slight for the most part, but they aren't Taj Harris doomed to be sticks forever guys. It would be great if they were all Sean Tuckers, but they aren't. Doesn't mean they won't get there.

There is one positional group going into next year that doesn't have a least already have the ingredients on the roster or in the 21 class to improve over this year, and that's interior DLine in my opinion.

 

[City of Cuse]

Right now, with the current team Cuse is fielding, they are the worst team in the power 5. They have played 9 games and have like 110ish first downs. 3rd down conversion percentages is almost dead last in all of fbs. Red zone offense, almost dead last in fbs. In the 90s for penalty yardage a game. Total offense almost dead last. It goes on and on and on...

Historically bad year and I'm not confident they could beat ANY fbs school right now. Regroup and get it together for next year.

 

[Trueblue25]

Program? No not even close.

Team in 2020? Ohhh yeah.

 

[UpstateSM]

We won 10 games two years ago

 

[Willy75]

This shows me that with the right leadership this program can be at a minimum competitive, and that bad decisions and management by the AD dept can crater the performance of the program.

P, Marrone, Babers (putting aside this years disaster) 80-79, the other guys 24-60.

When you have a coach in place that has proven he can do it, support that coach, don't cut and run and think change for change sake is going to lead to better results.

Stablity and resources, dispassionate assessment, not chasing results, is the way to go.

This chart also seriously undersells Pasqualoni, since by starting at 2000 it cuts out most of his best years.

 

[Scooch]

I'll cross-post what I just said in another thread. I don't know about the worst in P5, but SU is demonstrably worse than our northeast peer set. This is unacceptable.

In recent years you are absolutely correct. Pitt hasn't had *worse* than a 5 win season since 1998. 22 years. Granted, they haven't had many highs, but they have made 16 bowls since that nadir.

Meanwhile, BC has had three sub-5 win seasons since 1998 (2011, 2012, 2015). They've made 17 bowls since then. Not many highs since O'Brien left in '07, but a slew of 7 win bowl seasons.

SU? Since 1998? NINE sub-five win seasons, 7 bowls.

We're dramatically worse than our mediocre northeast peers. Stats don't lie.

As much as I agree that our ineptitude this season is largely due to a remarkable confluence of horrible circumstances, we also cannot ignore that the reason why our depth is so pathetic is because Dino hasn't recruited nearly well enough. To see soooooo many true freshman playing in year FIVE of his tenure is ridiculous.