Ash or Taggart...

[CousCuse]

There is a reason top managers get recycled in every type of business: There is no sure fire way to train or prep someone for the head job. The only real evidence as to whether someone will be successful as the head person is empirical.

 

[Alsacs]

You wrote "we knew" Ash would be a failure here. And a big part of the justification was that he had been a Defensive Coordinator.

Of course, being a weatherman after the fact is a pretty easy job.

I guess your third paragraph is suggesting you "knew" Babers would be a success at SU because of the extensive staff work you all did.

And you believe that?

So people who didn’t want another first HC lifetime DC with no connections to the northeast and wanted a proven HC with an offensive background are weathermen?

This fanbase didn’t want to go from one coach who required on the job training like Shafer to another one like Ash.
If SU hired someone like Bo Pelini instead of Dino the fanbase wouldn’t have been as upset. I personally wouldn’t have wanted Pelini but the fact he had HC experience at Nebraska would have lessened the frustration over hiring another conservative defensive meathead.

The fanbase didn’t want another Shafer style hire.

 

[TexanMark]

Did Rutgirls really extend Ash's contract last year? Who was going to steal him away? Akron? Kent State?

That said Ash gets fired first. I see Taggart lasting a minimum of two seasons...the bad news is FSU rebuild appears to be a 3 year project and do they have patience? I see year two (2019) much like 2017. I hope Taggart has JUCO connections as he needs to recruit a few elephants and hogs for the line.

 

[Hokie Mark]

Florida State has to give Taggert 2 years atleast.
I mean it’s a dumpster fire start but they have to give him a chance. The upperclassmen may have quit on him.
So he needs to be given a chance to have some of his kids starting.
Ash should be done after this year but I hope he gets year 4.

Through 3 games this season, Taggart is 1-2.
Through 3 games last season, Fisher was 1-2.

 

[Townie72]

So people who didn’t want another first HC lifetime DC with no connections to the northeast and wanted a proven HC with an offensive background are weathermen?

This fanbase didn’t want to go from one coach who required on the job training like Shafer to another one like Ash.
If SU hired someone like Bo Pelini instead of Dino the fanbase wouldn’t have been as upset. I personally wouldn’t have wanted Pelini but the fact he had HC experience at Nebraska would have lessened the frustration over hiring another conservative defensive meathead.

The fanbase didn’t want another Shafer style hire.

And you think SU or any school should be guided by the collective wisdom of the fan base?

 

[TheCusian]

You wrote "we knew" Ash would be a failure here. And a big part of the justification was that he had been a Defensive Coordinator.

Of course, being a weatherman after the fact is a pretty easy job.

I guess your third paragraph is suggesting you "knew" Babers would be a success at SU because of the extensive staff work you all did.

And you believe that?

Lol. I’m not guaranteeing anything. Lots of coaches fail for lots of reasons.

I’m saying, based on public facing info, that Ash looked like a bad hire for us for many reasons. Babers looked like a good hire for many reasons. It wasn’t hard to see.

Could there have been info dug up in the research phase by the actual hiring team that made Ash look better and Babers be disqualified? Yeah, of course. But based on our knowledge of the program, Babers and Ash’s records as HC and relevant experience combined with what we’ve done before ... it was an easy pick.

You’re “how could we possibly know” gives the impression that this is hard. It’s really not.

 

[TheCusian]

And you think SU or any school should be guided by the collective wisdom of the fan base?

Oh, I get it. You think we actually want or deserve a say. I don’t think that. I just think it’s way easier than you posit and that the collective wisdom of *this* fan base for the last hire was 10000% correct and it wasn’t that hard.

 

[Alsacs]

And you think SU or any school should be guided by the collective wisdom of the fan base?

SU FB needed buzz/life. We aren’t talking hoops where locals live and die by the program. Football needed something new.
Chris Ash wasn’t going to win bring excitement. I said it 3 years ago when Ash was a candidate and the board went into meltdown mode it we were going to hire Ash then we should have extended Shafer and given him another year as he would have had a 3 year head start on Ash and I wanted Shafer gone.

Ash wasn’t going to bring optimism. The fanbase’s temperature needs to be read when you are dealing with a struggling product. We aren’t talking about JB’s successor. SU FB had been irrelevant nationally since 1998. You don’t hire a carbon copy on paper of what you just fired when it didn’t work.

 

[Townie72]

Oh, I get it. You think we actually want or deserve a say. I don’t think that. I just think it’s way easier than you posit and that the collective wisdom of *this* fan base for the last hire was 10000% correct and it wasn’t that hard.

If you had said "suspected" or "thought" or "believed", I wouldn't have blinked an eye.

But "know" means "know". And you didn't "know" and to suggest otherwise is an insult to everyone's intelligence.

 

[chugg21]

People really think that Taggart is getting fired any time soon? He took over a roster that while highly rated recruits was a mess last year and a big part of why Jimbo hit the road. $75m+ also played a big part. We have maybe 1 more year where we might be able to beat them and after that I would think he'll have them back in the top 20 or so.

 

[TexanMark]

Lol. I’m not guaranteeing anything. Lots of coaches fail for lots of reasons.

I’m saying, based on public facing info, that Ash looked like a bad hire for us for many reasons. Babers looked like a good hire for many reasons. It wasn’t hard to see.

Could there have been info dug up in the research phase by the actual hiring team that made Ash look better and Babers be disqualified? Yeah, of course. But based on our knowledge of the program, Babers and Ash’s records as HC and relevant experience combined with what we’ve done before ... it was an easy pick.

You’re “how could we possibly know” gives the impression that this is hard. It’s really not.

Agreed...there is a reason the MAC is the cradle of coaches. You generally can do well hiring a successful MAC coach.

 

[Millhouse]

Agreed...there is a reason the MAC is the cradle of coaches. You generally can do well hiring a successful MAC coach.

UB's coach Leopold has to be in line for a big job. Successful everywhere

 

[IthacaBarrel]

UB's coach Leopold has to be in line for a big job. Successful everywhere

Agreed, I hate the hot coordinator from a factory school hire for the most part as those who are really good are holding out for BIG jobs like Kirby Smart who to me is exception not the rule. when I hear that hot coordinator is an "elite recruiter" I cringe. Syracuse will always need a guy that has proven HC ability at a smaller school and can develop talent for their system and always prefer offensive minded head coaches in todays landscape, defensive meat heads are always going to be just that regardless of what they say their offense will be like. They hope they get a certain coordinator at that point but don't even know for sure if that is possible. Its' a crap shoot

One of the golden rules for Syracuse football to me is that I don't care who the head coach is they will never be able to recruit truly elite talent here but need to recruit and develop for a system that they know and that has had proven success.

This is why I always loved Joe Moorhead the HC at Miss ST. He is a proven head coach and an offensive mind. He seems to have hit the ground running there as he has HC experience and a proven offensive system. No one is asking about his proven recruiting ties in the South right now, he's just a good football coach, plain and simple.

Don't gamble on what could be but bet on what they have proven albeit in a lower level like the MAC. Proven success.

 

[Lou_C]

I don't see Taggart getting less than three years, unless he goes like 1-11, 2-10.

You guys saw that line. That's not fixed by next year, let alone in the next couple games. You don't turn an O-line wasteland around in a year. There's nothing there. In the BEST case scenario, your true freshmen have some potential, but there are no superstars there.

Even if Willie is not the guy...why pay two coaches for the next 2-3 seasons of suckitude? Makes no sense. And while he won't be able to recruit as well as he potentially could given the disastrous season, he's still going to recruit better than almost anyone could in the situation.

There are definitely things that concern me. Not the record really, I don't see that being any different under Jimbo this year. Him leaving voluntarily seems to obscure the fact in a lot of peoples' minds that this team really sucked last year, was a losing team under Jimbo, and was very fortunate to go bowling. Things had gotten very, very bad. We had coaches not talking to each other, fighting, etc.

I am concerned mainly that the EXTENT of problems seem to have been as big a surprise to the staff as it is to everyone else. I guarantee you that this staff thought they would be better than this...no just hoped they'd be better, but really thought this offense would be better. Reports out of camp was that the offense was destroying the defense, and we've seen than the defense is actually really pretty great all things considered.

But I'm worried that this staff misevaluated their team so utterly completely that they worked on the wrong things, installed parts of the playbook that were not optimal, etc.

At this point, I'm kind of hoping the best we can see is to take our lumps this year and try to win 3-4 games. Then next year get back to around .500, and then we get to see what Willy can do three years in. If we get back to 8-9 wins in 2020 and trending up, then I think he's good. If he's still putting up a 6 loss season in year three, then the change comes.

 

[Alsacs]

I don't see Taggart getting less than three years, unless he goes like 1-11, 2-10.

You guys saw that line. That's not fixed by next year, let alone in the next couple games. You don't turn an O-line wasteland around in a year. There's nothing there. In the BEST case scenario, your true freshmen have some potential, but there are no superstars there.

Even if Willie is not the guy...why pay two coaches for the next 2-3 seasons of suckitude? Makes no sense. And while he won't be able to recruit as well as he potentially could given the disastrous season, he's still going to recruit better than almost anyone could in the situation.

There are definitely things that concern me. Not the record really, I don't see that being any different under Jimbo this year. Him leaving voluntarily seems to obscure the fact in a lot of peoples' minds that this team really sucked last year, was a losing team under Jimbo, and was very fortunate to go bowling. Things had gotten very, very bad. We had coaches not talking to each other, fighting, etc.

I am concerned mainly that the EXTENT of problems seem to have been as big a surprise to the staff as it is to everyone else. I guarantee you that this staff thought they would be better than this...no just hoped they'd be better, but really thought this offense would be better. Reports out of camp was that the offense was destroying the defense, and we've seen than the defense is actually really pretty great all things considered.

But I'm worried that this staff misevaluated their team so utterly completely that they worked on the wrong things, installed parts of the playbook that were not optimal, etc.

At this point, I'm kind of hoping the best we can see is to take our lumps this year and try to win 3-4 games. Then next year get back to around .500, and then we get to see what Willy can do three years in. If we get back to 8-9 wins in 2020 and trending up, then I think he's good. If he's still putting up a 6 loss season in year three, then the change comes.

Would you rather win 4 games and beat Miami and Florida or win 6 games keep that record bowl streak alive and not beat either rival?
The bowl streak may matter to FSU but I would rather beat the rivals and just keep in-State recruiting bragging rights.

 

[TheCusian]

If you had said "suspected" or "thought" or "believed", I wouldn't have blinked an eye.

But "know" means "know". And you didn't "know" and to suggest otherwise is an insult to everyone's intelligence.

Ah, semantics. My bad. I suspected very, very, very highly that Ash would be a train wreck (not an expert on rail travel safety) human pooper scooper of a HC. I believed that a change of direction by hiring a guy with an unique offensive background and thought it should be someone with head coach experience.

For the record, the people making those choices don't "know" either. No one does. But kudos for making us clear a bar no one else is asked to clear. Sigh.

 

[TheCusian]

I don't see Taggart getting less than three years, unless he goes like 1-11, 2-10.

You guys saw that line. That's not fixed by next year, let alone in the next couple games. You don't turn an O-line wasteland around in a year. There's nothing there. In the BEST case scenario, your true freshmen have some potential, but there are no superstars there.

Even if Willie is not the guy...why pay two coaches for the next 2-3 seasons of suckitude? Makes no sense. And while he won't be able to recruit as well as he potentially could given the disastrous season, he's still going to recruit better than almost anyone could in the situation.

There are definitely things that concern me. Not the record really, I don't see that being any different under Jimbo this year. Him leaving voluntarily seems to obscure the fact in a lot of peoples' minds that this team really sucked last year, was a losing team under Jimbo, and was very fortunate to go bowling. Things had gotten very, very bad. We had coaches not talking to each other, fighting, etc.

I am concerned mainly that the EXTENT of problems seem to have been as big a surprise to the staff as it is to everyone else. I guarantee you that this staff thought they would be better than this...no just hoped they'd be better, but really thought this offense would be better. Reports out of camp was that the offense was destroying the defense, and we've seen than the defense is actually really pretty great all things considered.

But I'm worried that this staff misevaluated their team so utterly completely that they worked on the wrong things, installed parts of the playbook that were not optimal, etc.

At this point, I'm kind of hoping the best we can see is to take our lumps this year and try to win 3-4 games. Then next year get back to around .500, and then we get to see what Willy can do three years in. If we get back to 8-9 wins in 2020 and trending up, then I think he's good. If he's still putting up a 6 loss season in year three, then the change comes.

Good post, Lou. As always.

Bad OL play makes all offenses look poor. I think you're right in identifying that as the culprit.

From people who are living through a change in system/coach from slow to tempo/spread - It's a weird jump. Simple and fast only works if everyone is on the same page and has time to dictate. The OL issues are making everything look poorly timed and not well schemed.

 

[Townie72]

Ah, semantics. My bad. I suspected very, very, very highly that Ash would be a train wreck (not an expert on rail travel safety) human pooper scooper of a HC. I believed that a change of direction by hiring a guy with an unique offensive background and thought it should be someone with head coach experience.

For the record, the people making those choices don't "know" either. No one does. But kudos for making us clear a bar no one else is asked to clear. Sigh.

Language and precision do matter. IMO.

 

[HtownOrange]

I don't see Taggart getting less than three years, unless he goes like 1-11, 2-10.

You guys saw that line. That's not fixed by next year, let alone in the next couple games. You don't turn an O-line wasteland around in a year. There's nothing there. In the BEST case scenario, your true freshmen have some potential, but there are no superstars there.

Even if Willie is not the guy...why pay two coaches for the next 2-3 seasons of suckitude? Makes no sense. And while he won't be able to recruit as well as he potentially could given the disastrous season, he's still going to recruit better than almost anyone could in the situation.

There are definitely things that concern me. Not the record really, I don't see that being any different under Jimbo this year. Him leaving voluntarily seems to obscure the fact in a lot of peoples' minds that this team really sucked last year, was a losing team under Jimbo, and was very fortunate to go bowling. Things had gotten very, very bad. We had coaches not talking to each other, fighting, etc.

I am concerned mainly that the EXTENT of problems seem to have been as big a surprise to the staff as it is to everyone else. I guarantee you that this staff thought they would be better than this...no just hoped they'd be better, but really thought this offense would be better. Reports out of camp was that the offense was destroying the defense, and we've seen than the defense is actually really pretty great all things considered.

But I'm worried that this staff misevaluated their team so utterly completely that they worked on the wrong things, installed parts of the playbook that were not optimal, etc.

At this point, I'm kind of hoping the best we can see is to take our lumps this year and try to win 3-4 games. Then next year get back to around .500, and then we get to see what Willy can do three years in. If we get back to 8-9 wins in 2020 and trending up, then I think he's good. If he's still putting up a 6 loss season in year three, then the change comes.

Taggart is a proven coach who has had high level teams. His problem is that he is changing systems, both sides of the line, wholesale. With the talent already at FSU, he should have implemented the systems incrementally, letting the players buy in over time. He would win games on pure talent.

Regardless, the kids will like the offense once they get a taste of success, which will happen this fall. Next season, they will look much better and by year three they will run the system the way it is intended to be run. Taggart runs a similar offense to Babers and it is fun. Kids love to have fun, just like us old @#$&s.

Just this poster's opinion.

 

[OttoMets]

If you had said "suspected" or "thought" or "believed", I wouldn't have blinked an eye.

But "know" means "know". And you didn't "know" and to suggest otherwise is an insult to everyone's intelligence.

Knowledge is traditionally defined as justified true belief.

I see no problem with their word choice.

 

[TheCusian]

Language and precision do matter. IMO.

Yeah. Always, but especially on a message board.

 

[Pyle]

... human pooper scooper of a HC.....I believed that a change of direction by hiring a guy with an unique offensive background and thought it should be someone with head coach experience.

For the record, the people making those choices don't "know" either. No one does. But kudos for making us clear a bar no one else is asked to clear. Sigh.

How would you know this? Have you ever met a human pooper scooper? I have met humans acting as dog pooper scoopers but a human pooper scooper...well let's just say that must be a very sh***y job. I'm not sure you're qualified to judge human pooper scoopers. Or whether Ash would resemble one.

 

[Townie72]

Knowledge is traditionally defined as justified true belief.

I see no problem with their word choice.

I KNOW 2+2=4

I don't KNOW which coaches are going to be successful in the future.

What does "traditionally defined" even mean?

 

[HOFCeluck]

lol

 

[TheCusian]

How would you know this? Have you ever met a human pooper scooper? I have met humans acting as dog pooper scoopers but a human pooper scooper...well let's just say that must be a very sh***y job. I'm not sure you're qualified to judge human pooper scoopers. Or whether Ash would resemble one.

I change the cat liter and have seen Rutgers play football, so I'm qualified