Because we are Syracuse

[RF2044]

And that is one of the things that bothers me most about this team. There doesn't seem to be a plan. Just, whatever happens, happens.

One of my biggest concerns when we hired Red was that he would prove to be a "no trick pony," just like how Hopkins eventually got exposed to be at Washington. They both talked about all the things they would do different than Boeheim, but when push came to shove they both stuck with what they knew best.

So I resonate with your observation. I don't think there's a plan.

 

[sufandu]

It seems like for these past ten-ish years we just think we should win because we are Syracuse. We haven’t had good rosters and the players and coaches have talked about how good we are going to be. That one press conference when JB laughed as if the idea of us not making the tournament was a ridiculous question and said, “We’re going to make the tournament” sticks in my mind. And our players talking about definitely making the tournament, or all the Chris Bell is the best shooter in the ACC/country stuff coming from the players and coaches.

Fran Brown talks about winning every day and being in the moment. The basketball program needs to start thinking that way.

We’re not going to win just because we are Syracuse. “Orange standard” and “this is not Syracuse basketball” is not going to cut it. Develop a plan and stick to it. It just feels like we’re winging it.

It needs to start in the off season. Every year I watch other games and hear about guys adding 10 lbs of muscle. Last year there was a Kansas player that added weight and increased his verticle significantly. Where are these physical changes from our players? I'm sick of seeing us get pushed around. Bell's body looks prepubescent. I get that not every guy is going to look chiseled, but a junior in college who's primary focus is athletics should have a little muscle. Shooting can be streaky. Being physical, getting rebounds, and playing hard nosed defense shouldn't be.

 

[sufandu]

I get it. I said at the time that 2016 should have been when JB was told, discretely and professionally, to leave. We never should have let him stay after the second probation. It blows my mind that we did.

We had a surprising Final Four appearance. What better time to walk away triumphantly. And it’s not 20/20 hindsight, i posted it here.

The problem may have been that there was no way to be discrete. Would JB have allowed that? Look at how he tried to botch it when it did happen, and that was after about a decade of decline. What kind of fit would he have thrown following a FF run? If the decision had been made to tell him to move on, we would have had to be prepared for it to be messy and to be crucified in the media.

 

[baggerbob]

The problem may have been that there was no way to be discrete. Would JB have allowed that? Look at how he tried to botch it when it did happen, and that was after about a decade of decline. What kind of fit would he have thrown following a FF run? If the decision had been made to tell him to move on, we would have had to be prepared for it to be messy and to be crucified in the media.

When he got us on the 2nd probation was the time to move on. That was justification enough. 1 probation could be allowed but not taking responsibility to clean up the program and not get a 2nd should have been time to move we on.

 

[kcsu]

For the past decade, the only reason why we haven't bottomed out was because JB was a very good in-game coach and could out-coach most people during the game. During that time our identity was a boring and outdated defensive system.

Right now we do not have a good in-game coach and it shows. That clearly isn't Red's strength so he needs to have a system or style of play in place on both sides of the court. JB's could get away with the roll the ball out there and lets play style of coaching because he was good in-game coach. The problem was hiring from within is Red has the same style of coaching.

So now we are stuck with no identity on either side of the court and a coach that can't over come that by simply out coaching the other team. This isn't going to get better at all. This is looking like one of the worst Syracuse teams of all-time and if that happens I really don't think Red will get a third year because this third year could bury the program like we did on the football side of things.

At this point in his career Red may not have an identity. He talks about playing fast having more of a position less team. That sounds like todays NBA the issue is you have to have the talent to run that style and we don't.
JJ choppa Freeman Bell seem to have the skills to get up and down. I'm not sure about the rest of the team. Eddie definitely doesn't. Davis is more of a half court player. I don't know about the others. Personally I think Red is floundering because he wants to play a certain style but doesn't have the talent to do so. Hopefully we retain choppa Donnie and JJ next year. Add in the frosh a real point and mobile 5 and we click. This year is a bust so focus on next.

 

[kcsu]

When he got us on the 2nd probation was the time to move on. That was justification enough. 1 probation could be allowed but not taking responsibility to clean up the program and not get a 2nd should have been time to move we on.

The Chancellor had it set. Jim absolutely dispised him because of it and stuck it up his arse with the Hop baloney. That was the beginning of the end. I truly believe that if Jim had honored the deal and turned the team over to Hop that our program would have soared. Hop was dialed in here. He would have crushed recruiting and won. He was out of his element out West yet still won coach of the year awards in his conference.

 

[kcsu]

It needs to start in the off season. Every year I watch other games and hear about guys adding 10 lbs of muscle. Last year there was a Kansas player that added weight and increased his verticle significantly. Where are these physical changes from our players? I'm sick of seeing us get pushed around. Bell's body looks prepubescent. I get that not every guy is going to look chiseled, but a junior in college who's primary focus is athletics should have a little muscle. Shooting can be streaky. Being physical, getting rebounds, and playing hard nosed defense shouldn't be.

JB never put a focus on strength and conditioning. Ask anyone close to the program.

 

[baggerbob]

The Chancellor had it set. Jim absolutely dispised him because of it and stuck it up his arse with the Hop baloney. That was the beginning of the end. I truly believe that if Jim had honored the deal and turned the team over to Hop that our program would have soared. Hop was dialed in here. He would have crushed recruiting and won. He was out of his element out West yet still won coach of the year awards in his conference.

And didn't Hop take a highly recruited player with him to Washington?

 

[kcsu]

And didn't Hop take a highly recruited player with him to Washington?

How amazing that Hop decided after waiting a 100 years and having already signed a contract to leave. That whole thing was so orchestrated by Jim. Gotta give him credit as he was never going to go out on Kent's terms.

 

[SUFan44]

The reason why programs stay great is because they are relentlessly focused on being just that. Great.

Duke does it. UConn has done it recently.

SU didn’t. We made excuse after excuse about why we were slipping. It was probation, or kids leaving early, or this and that and the other thing. Meanwhile Boeheim got complacent and put himself and his family ahead of the program.

Now we’re paying for it.

I think that's true, but the reason we stink this year is not 'because we are paying for it'. It's because we hired the wrong coach.

 

[DilemaCuse]

Agree with a lot of these posts about how everyone became content with status quo from
JB who simplified his system, 2-3 zone, don't need to use every scholarship, didn't upgrade the staff after Hop left, can build the team around his son, can get 20+ wins to I can just sneak into the tournament and then win a game or 2 to keep everyone happy.

To the fans who were in denial in regards to the decline in talent that was obviously happening from 2015 and on.

To the local media who were soo scared to be critical and discuss the decline and were providing cover because they didn't want to lose access to the program, except for Axe who then got fired for it.

To the AD or maybe more the President and BOT who let JB stay too long beyond a succession plan and then were afraid to go with an outsider and make the necessary hire to improve things. They just thought hire the former player/current loyal assistant like its 2012 and that will make everything better, not realizing that coaching really does matter and you need to pony up the money and hire an experienced head coach if you are serious about getting out of the rut that was created.

 

[Newhouser]

JB never put a focus on strength and conditioning. Ask anyone close to the program.

Which was pretty obvious and more dinosaur thinking.

 

[orangecuse]

Well “we” isn’t all of us.

I know it comes off as “I told you so” to some of us it was like watching a slow moving car crash and you were pointing out “hey you are about to crash” and being told you’re wrong AND you are disloyal for pointing it out. It sucked watching it and it sucks more now

100%!!!

Some really good posters here, going back to the Frank Howard years and further, whom offered solid constructive and objective criticisms, etc. were subject to the disloyal garb, 'how many games have you won,' malarkey and the like. And, in the end, well, let's just say, were shown the door to boot.

 

[FRANKIEFAN]

I get that it is a road game but ND without their best player should be getting smoked by 10-20 points given the spot we were in with the losses to good teams and not having a solid showing yet vs bad ones.

 

[M2MPrinciples]

Which was pretty obvious and more dinosaur thinking.

Yep. Only guys I can think of in the last 15 years who improved their conditioning noticeably when they were here are Fab, Coleman (though they still struggled with it) and Fair, Rakeem and Jesse. Maybe Marek. Am I missing anyone?

 

[orangecuse]

How amazing that Hop decided after waiting a 100 years and having already signed a contract to leave. That whole thing was so orchestrated by Jim. Gotta give him credit as he was never going to go out on Kent's terms.

Hop was torn by JB's actions. Hop, being the guy he is, and feeling and believing in all his heart he owed JB so, so much, et al, he decided to force Kent's hand, so he informed his rep to put his name out there...hence what shortly thereafter ensued, taking the available UW position. Hop was well aware of just how much JB was resisting the Kent mandate, etc. and how bad JB wanting to coach Buddy once he became a legit D1 player, etc. And, there was no way that Hop was (at least in his eyes) be the one that kept/stood in the way of JB getting that wish and strong desire.

 

[littlereg]

100%!!!

Some really good posters here, going back to the Frank Howard years and further, whom offered solid constructive and objective criticisms, etc. were subject to the disloyal garb, 'how many games have you won,' malarkey and the like. And, in the end, well, let's just say, were shown the door to boot.

even with all his turnovers, Junior year Frank Howard while smoking a joint in one hand would bully Jaquan Carlos. That’s how far we have fallen.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

even with all his turnovers, Junior year Frank Howard while smoking a joint in one hand would bully Jaquan Carlos. That’s how far we have fallen.

Senior year Frank Howard with a joint in one hand got suspended from the NCAA Tournament.

 

[littlereg]

Senior year Frank Howard with a joint in one hand got suspended from the NCAA Tournament.

Yeah I wasn’t linking the two years together I just used his best year with the suspension hahah

 

[DilemaCuse]

100%!!!

Some really good posters here, going back to the Frank Howard years and further, whom offered solid constructive and objective criticisms, etc. were subject to the disloyal garb, 'how many games have you won,' malarkey and the like. And, in the end, well, let's just say, were shown the door to boot.

I remember those years and alot of us figured it was a blip on the JB radar. That blip turned into a multi year malaise

 

[orangecuse]

I remember those years and alot of us figured it was a blip on the JB radar. That blip turned into a multi year malaise

IMO, the "blip on the radar" was an easy, let's just say, trap to fall into, especially when considering JB's overall longevity and success. However, there were legitimate signs and arguments made that had nothing to do with hating and the like, but again, simply solid constructive and objective spirited discussion. Additionally, personal relationships with JB, closeness to the program, etc. influenced what was acceptable/allowable conversation discussed, with considerable quashing, deletion and censorship as a result.

Unfortunately, indeed it has.

 

[baggerbob]

IMO, the "blip on the radar" was an easy, let's just say, trap to fall into, especially when considering JB's overall longevity and success. However, there were legitimate signs and arguments made that had nothing to do with hating and the like, but again, simply solid constructive and objective spirited discussion. Additionally, personal relationships with JB, closeness to the program, etc. influenced what was acceptable/allowable conversation discussed, with considerable quashing, deletion and censorship as a result.

Unfortunately, indeed it has.

When that picture of him out recruiting and asleep on the bleachers came out it should have been enough to get him out.

 

[DilemaCuse]

IMO, the "blip on the radar" was an easy, let's just say, trap to fall into, especially when considering JB's overall longevity and success. However, there were legitimate signs and arguments made that had nothing to do with hating and the like, but again, simply solid constructive and objective spirited discussion. Additionally, personal relationships with JB, closeness to the program, etc. influenced what was acceptable/allowable conversation discussed, with considerable quashing, deletion and censorship as a result.

Unfortunately, indeed it has.

Yep, ive been subject to that censorship of truth.

 

[DilemaCuse]

When that picture of him out recruiting and asleep on the bleachers came out it should have been enough to get him out.

I think that happened when things were going well, like 2008-2014, IIRC.

And we all laughed at it and thought it was funny just old JB being ooold JB but he had Hop to carry his recruiting pitch at the time while still winning 25 games a year. You can get away with that when you win 25 a year.

 

[IthacaMatt]

When that picture of him out recruiting and asleep on the bleachers came out it should have been enough to get him out.

That was used against us for years, you can bet on that.
And then he recruited his kids to play for him, and froze out other guys who could have contributed.
Mass transfers resulted (pre-portal, remember), robbing us of program and roster continuity for several years, because people didn't think they would get a fair shake against Buddy and Jimmy playing for the tean.