Belichick to UNC

[Cusefan95]

Once again, neither Lombardi or Shula did it in an era of free agency, a salary cap, and competitive balance rules. Bill couldn't coach up weaker rosters into a competitive team?

Look at some of the offensive and defensive starters in the Super Bowl seasons. Look at the lower round/undrafted players that played key roles. He won a super bowl with these "offensive weapons": Kevin Faulk, Antowain Smith, David Givens, Deion Branch, Troy Brown, Daniel Graham, Christan Fauria, and Bethel Johnson.

…and Brady. I think Brady was one of his offensive weapons? Right? That’s kind of a big deal…it’s frankly the point being made.

Shula didn’t win it, but he took a team with almost no Pro Bowlers and Don Strock & Davis Woodley as his QBs to the Super Bowl.

So no - the evidence absolutely does not support that Belichick could coach up a weak roster nearly as well as Shula. Considering Belichick couldn’t win didley without Brady, I don’t think there’s any chance he could have taken “Woodstrock” all the way to the Super Bowl. He may have struggled to get them into the playoffs.

 

[bnoro]

…and Brady. I think Brady was one of his offensive weapons? Right? That’s kind of a big deal…it’s frankly the point being made.

Shula didn’t win it, but he took a team with almost no Pro Bowlers and Don Strock & Davis Woodley as his QBs to the Super Bowl.

So no - the evidence absolutely does not support that Belichick could coach up a weak roster nearly as well as Shula. Considering Belichick couldn’t win didley without Brady, I don’t think there’s any chance he could have taken “Woodstrock” all the way to the Super Bowl. He may have struggled to get them into the playoffs.

He went 11-5 with Matt Cassel and 10-7 with Mac Jones.

He made Mac fl'''n Jones look like a competent QB.

 

[Orangepace]

And saying he turned the Browns into a Super Bowl contender is absurd - he had one winning season and was a 5-11 catastrophe his last year. Lots of guys have one winning season - you’re claiming it’s certain he would have had more except for the Browns disfunction at the time. Not any evidence for that.

And where's your evidence that the Pats wouldn't have won 6 SuperBowl's if Brady wasn't on the team?

Brady didn't call the offense. Brady didn't call the defense. Brady didn't pick personnel. The Patriots 20+ yr run left them drafting in the lower quartile of each draft. 31 other teams were given every advantage possible to knock them off and derail the dynasty, but couldn't knock these guys off their perch. Nobody will ever know what either of these guys could do without the other, but I'm quite certain that it wouldn't have been 6 superbowl titles. Looking at their sample size outside of each other is idiocy.

EDIT: To be clear, I don't like Belichick.

 

[Orangepace]

You all also know that Nick Saban was 15-17 in the NFL. He must be a sh!tty coach too.

 

[Orangepace]

Belichick had 21 seasons with winning records, & 8 losing records. Lombardi had ten winning seasons, none with losing records. Shula had 27 winning seasons, 2 losing (4 at .500).

So yes - Bill had a lot of bad years compared to Lombardi and Shula. I realize as a Patriots fan you’re not going to accept there is a viable argument there were others who were better…but the numbers don’t lie. That he couldn’t win without Brady while Shula won with some pretty mediocre guys in some of those 27 years could mean Bill had a higher ceiling than Shula, but couldn’t coach up weaker rosters into a competitive team like Shula could and so his floor was much lower. What Lombardi did from St Cecilia HS all the way through to his last year with the Redskins is absurd - If I had to pick one guy to coach for a season or a game, I’m taking Lombardi over Bill and feeling really good about it. That Bill didn’t burn out is impressive though.

Let’s keep in mind that - like many have said here - for Bill, a bad year was not having Brady. That he never really won squat with anyone else factors in to how he is and will be viewed historically. Does he belong in the discussion of best ever? Sure. Is it clear cut? Not a chance.

I'll personally accept a 2-week ban if I must for this next comment.. The level of reductiveness and analysis you are doing in this thread is honestly on the Steven Avery level.

You going to preach next that LeBron is better than Jordan because of his stats?

 

[Trueblue25]

People are really arguing BB isnt that good of a coach?



Interesting! Insane! But interesting!

This coming from a phins fan who fully acknowledges how good brady was.

Potentially an all time silly board take.

 

[Nick44]

Maybe after the Jets decided to interview Ulbrich for the job they realized that maybe the candidates they had weren’t good enough? So they are reaching back out to Bill….lol

 

[Cusefan95]

And where's your evidence that the Pats wouldn't have won 6 SuperBowl's if Brady wasn't on the team?

Brady didn't call the offense. Brady didn't call the defense. Brady didn't pick personnel. The Patriots 20+ yr run left them drafting in the lower quartile of each draft. 31 other teams were given every advantage possible to knock them off and derail the dynasty, but couldn't knock these guys off their perch. Nobody will ever know what either of these guys could do without the other, but I'm quite certain that it wouldn't have been 6 superbowl titles. Looking at their sample size outside of each other is idiocy.

EDIT: To be clear, I don't like Belichick.

What was Belichick record as a head coach without Brady again?

Oh, yeah - terrible. That’s the evidence Bill wouldn’t have won 6 Super Bowls without Brady - that he had a terrible record in his other years without Tom.

 

[upperdeck]

did we forget that Brady was not even the starting QB when Bill took over the Pats from Pete Carroll.

Maybe he created a perfect system, or Brady was God but you still need the D and STs to be decent (right bills fans)

Just being relevant for that long is a feat.

 

[Cusefan95]

People are really arguing BB isnt that good of a coach?



Interesting! Insane! But interesting!

This coming from a phins fan who fully acknowledges how good brady was.

Potentially an all time silly board take.

What’s fairly amazing (but unsurprising) to me is I said he’s in the top 5, arguabley the best coach ever - but that’s there’s other candidates as well. That’s what is getting people’s panties all bunched up.

That my view is getting spun as “arguing BB isn’t a good head coach” is a perfect example of my initial comment - he’s either overrated and is the best coach ever, no question…or I’m claiming he’s terrible. That’s what the all time silly board take.

 

[Cusefan95]

I'll personally accept a 2-week ban if I must for this next comment.. The level of reductiveness and analysis you are doing in this thread is honestly on the Steven Avery level.

You going to preach next that LeBron is better than Jordan because of his stats?

I wouldn’t argue LeBron is better than Jordan (in part because anything other than “counting stats” are going to demonstrate otherwise, and using “counting stats” would be crazy) - but I will argue Willie Mays was the best baseball player of all-time over Babe Ruth.

 

[Chip]

did we forget that Brady was not even the starting QB when Bill took over the Pats from Pete Carroll.

Maybe he created a perfect system, or Brady was God but you still need the D and STs to be decent (right bills fans)

Just being relevant for that long is a feat.

I mean, Brady was a 6th round pick, doesn't he at least get credit for that?

You inherit a terrible team, you get the first pick overall, you draft Tom Brady, then ok yeah. Maybe you had some things on your side.

 

[upperdeck]

And he had the NIL budget to game the refs/rules for about 20 yrs too. Thats not easy.

 

[AcAndAc]

And he had the NIL budget to game the refs/rules for about 20 yrs too. Thats not easy.

Apparently NFL Teams are contacting BB now. Prob just teams using this against BB/UNC in recruiting. But maybe it is legit.

If so, UNC could come out big here. If some NFL team wants to pay them $10M to let BB out of his contract, all that did was make UNC some cash. Nice to get money without hitting up the boosters.
Probably end up with the same level of coach anyway... Tulane's coach, etc.

Is there a basketball equivalent we could try this with? Wikepedia says Phil Jackson is still alive. I haven't cared about the NBA in 20 years... not sure if there is a close equivalent that needs to be rehabbed in this way.

 

[Cusefan95]

I’m not sure how to rate Mac Jones - he wasn’t great, but bringing in Patricia and Judge as play caller and QB coach was horrible. Whatever development Jones had going on got destroyed. No idea how he would have turned out, but that decision was terrible and is a mark against Belichick. In order to argue for Bill as clearly best ever, it’s requiring trashing Jones as total garbage and it was a miracle Bill ever won with him…if he’d brought in someone that was a legitimate OC when McDaniels left, that’d be a stronger case.

I’m also not sure “and he did it in the salary cap era”! is a strong argument for him, since he had Brady taking well under market value for most of his career. Arguably it was like he was given a ten meter head start in a 100 meter dash - and that’s being spun as him overcoming a big challenge.

Again - I’m not arguing he was terrible. I’m arguing the “he was clearly the bestest ever!” take is a little excessive. Every coach has marks against them. Lombardi burned himself out from every coaching job he ever had, and so he never had to remake a roster to remain relevant. How Shula managed to never win a Super Bowl with Marino - and only made one - has to be taken into account. Bill took full advantage of any advantage he had - can’t really say that about Shula.

I think there’s arguments for Lombardi, Shula, Landry, and Bill for best coach ever. Walsh is probably top five, but I think an argument for him would be tough. Noll is, in my opinion, just outside the top 5. If we’re calling all of them “unique” - great. I can agree with that.

 

[kingtidge]

Billy Sweatshirts is in FranLand recruiting today...

 

[orange79]

Billy Sweatshirts is in FranLand recruiting today...

Sounds like the kind of statement made about 24 hours before he accepts the Raiders job.

 

[orange79]

Sounds like the kind of statement made about 24 hours before he accepts the Raiders job.

And then UNC will know how the Jets felt.

 

[OrangePA]

Yeah, except I managed to do it with a :10 second Google search.

Which, as I was typing it, pre-populated - so clearly I'm not the first person ever to search for what his record was without Brady at QB.

Mind you - I do think he was a defensive mastermind, as I am a G-Men fan.

Meanwhile...

Brady went to a moribund Bucs franchise, and made them winners.
While Hoodie Bill started losing lots more games than he was winning, and eventually got canned.

I'm not sure you succeeded.

It's pretty hard to "minimize" the success of a guy who won six SBs with the Patriots (while losing two others because of two great/crazy catches by the Giants) and was a significant factor in winning two with the Giants.

And, of course, you can't assess a professional's success in a vacuum. You have to compare his success with the success of others. A lot coaches had great QBs.

Chuck Noll, with Terry Bradshaw, won four SBs.

Bill Walsh with Joe Montana won three SBs.

Don Shula with Brian Griese, Dan Marino - many say he was the most talented QB in history- and Johnny Unitas - many remain convinced that he was the best QB of all time - won two SBs.

Tom Landry with Roger Staubach won two SBs.

So, when you take the vacuum out of the equation and look at the objective data, it seems inescapable that Belichick is the greatest coach in NFL history.

 

[dasher]

And where's your evidence that the Pats wouldn't have won 6 SuperBowl's if Brady wasn't on the team?

Brady didn't call the offense. Brady didn't call the defense. Brady didn't pick personnel. The Patriots 20+ yr run left them drafting in the lower quartile of each draft. 31 other teams were given every advantage possible to knock them off and derail the dynasty, but couldn't knock these guys off their perch. Nobody will ever know what either of these guys could do without the other, but I'm quite certain that it wouldn't have been 6 superbowl titles. Looking at their sample size outside of each other is idiocy.

EDIT: To be clear, I don't like Belichick.

I don't want to get in the middle of this but I will say, Brady went to a 7-9 Tampa team and won a Super Bowl right off. I tend to think it was more Brady than anything BB did. Especially when you think he was run out of Cleveland and really didn't do anything good once Brady left the Pats.

 

[kingtidge]

Sounds like the kind of statement made about 24 hours before he accepts the Raiders job.

I'd like to be a fly on the wall on one of his recruiting visits... He has the personality of a ritz cracker.

It would be like sending rainman in to talk to a kid and his rents...

 

[dasher]

I'd like to be a fly on the wall on one of his recruiting visits... He has the personality of a ritz cracker.

It would be like sending rainman in to talk to a kid and his rents...

There is so much that goes in to being a college football coach. Building relationships with high school coaches which means going to visit those schools even in years when they don't have anyone you would be interested in. I have a hard time seeing BB doing that. Especially at his age.

 

[kingtidge]

There is so much that goes in to being a college football coach. Building relationships with high school coaches which means going to visit those schools even in years when they don't have anyone you would be interested in. I have a hard time seeing BB doing that. Especially at his age.

Yeah, I would bet he's hiring assistants with said relationships...

 

[kcsu]

There is so much that goes in to being a college football coach. Building relationships with high school coaches which means going to visit those schools even in years when they don't have anyone you would be interested in. I have a hard time seeing BB doing that. Especially at his age.

Hes going to live or die via the portal

 

[dasher]

Yeah, I would bet he's hiring assistants with said relationships...

Maybe. But we saw here that ass't coach going against head coaches don't work out all that great.