Blaming the Wrong Boeheim...

[Ghost]

If this is not a double-team, then nothing is. Two guys went to guard Buddy, which left Joe open for a 3. I'm surprised someone would even think this was arguable.

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I does! We can agree to disagree!

If having one guy guarding two people, Eli and Buddy, and another guy flying in late to contest a shot fake, is a double team, than, yes, I do concur.

I do think that means almost every player in D1 is somewhat regularly doubled and therefore any talk of BB drawing doubles is rather worthless.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Here you go:
5:43 to play, tie game. Hughes passes to Buddy in the corner - Fla St immediately sends 2 defenders at him. Buddy ends up with the "hockey assist", as he passed the ball back to Hughes - who then swung it to Girard (trailing on the play, not pictured in this screenshot) and Joe knocked down the open 3 to give us our first lead in the 2nd half.


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I have a really hard time calling that a double team. When our guys do it, we call that a trap.

 

[malpearl31]

I have a really hard time calling that a double team. When our guys do it, we call that a trap.

Ok. Call it a trap, then. With two defenders moving to guard one player, thus freeing up a 2nd offensive player for an open 3-pointer. Whatever floats your boat, I guess.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Aren’t Traps really double teams? I mean...

 

[OrangeDW]

Aren’t Traps really double teams? I mean...

Basically. But semantics wise I guess I see what they’re going for in that “traps” are often based more on where people are on the court than who the player is. Like, you try to trap anyone who dribbles to the corner or the sideline near halfcourt regardless of who the player is.

Whereas “double teams” are typically strategically thrown at star players to make them give up the ball.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Basically. But semantics wise I guess I see what they’re going for in that “traps” are often based more on where people are on the court than who the player is. Like, you try to trap anyone who dribbles to the corner or the sideline near halfcourt regardless of who the players is.

Whereas “double teams” are typically strategically thrown at star players to make them give up the ball.

Yeah I get what you’re saying, but I just assume teams are going to throw multiple guys at Buddy because he’s been our best shooter this year. If you’re an opponent you would rather have Girard taking shots as he hasn’t been as efficient. I guess what I was getting at and you described is how teams always “trap” Steph Curry to get him to give up the ball.

 

[FRANKIEFAN]

35 mpg players who are below average defensively can’t play entire games and give their teams nothing. Last years season ended vs Baylor with JB leaving him in for every second of that game despite being ice cold and being blown by repeatedly. Our season this year has ended with the NC st and FSU losses we win if he hits a couple shots. It is what it is.

 

[OrangeDW]

Buddy just went 5-9 from 3 in a game 8 days ago.

Sports fans have the emotional balance of junior high kids, sometimes. People really acting like he sucks and is screwed now, as if teams just suddenly figured out how to stop him. Amazing.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Buddy just went 5-9 from 3 in a game 8 days ago.

Sports fans have the emotional balance of junior high kids, sometimes. People really acting like he sucks and is screwed now, as if teams just suddenly figured out how to stop him. Amazing.

I think you need to go back and read the title of this thread.

 

[OrangeDW]

I think you need to go back and read the title of this thread.

True, but some of the responses veered towards Buddy basically cooked going forward.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

True, but some of the responses veered towards Buddy basically cooked going forward.

I get you now.

JB has to help him out then. Using someone who has a lesser defender to pick for Buddy when he’s locked down. Look for those switches.

Buddy has to help out by finish his drives, even if he gets blocked. Need more contact and fouls.

 

[dollarbill44]

Looking at his box score facts are facts

Looking at his season stats tells a different story, however. You have to acknowledge that individual matchups can have a big effect on performance from game to game. Buddy tends to struggle against better than average defenders. (I think that's probably common for sophomore shooting guards.) Otherwise, he tends to score a lot, both from 3 and from dribble drives. It's not because there is a specific strategy that is guaranteed to shut him down. The opponent has to have the personnel and the strategy to be effective.

 

[tbonezone]

Watch the replay

i did this am. buddy was not drawing extra attention as stated here. no double teams. in fact they often left him alone.

 

[rrlbees]

Nobody guarded Goodine on the play where Hughes scored with 11:27 left to play. Hughes beat his man 1-on-1, plain and simple. Nobody picked Goodine up and left the lane open for Hughes. I think you may also be seeing something you want to see.

And by the way, that wasn't even close to the last possession that Goodine played. He checked into the game with 12:13 to play and checked out with 7:51 to play.

Screenshot with 11:30 on the clock. That's Goodine in the corner. Nobody on Fla St is paying any attention to him whatsoever.

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thats kind of a silly example. Nobody’s picking him up because it was a semi fast break and there isn’t anyone to pick him up. Where are the other 3 FSU players? Where are the other 2 SU players? There might be someone in the lower left, but it’s certainly not a 5v5 half court offense.

 

[DoctorBombay]

35 mpg players who are below average defensively can’t play entire games and give their teams nothing. Last years season ended vs Baylor with JB leaving him in for every second of that game despite being ice cold and being blown by repeatedly. Our season this year has ended with the NC st and FSU losses we win if he hits a couple shots. It is what it is.

Buddy just went 5-9 from 3 in a game 8 days ago.

Sports fans have the emotional balance of junior high kids, sometimes. People really acting like he sucks and is screwed now, as if teams just suddenly figured out how to stop him. Amazing.

This is the basic Catch-22 we’re watching take place before us.
There is no question that Buddy is an integral part of this team’s make-up, and even with his defensive limitations, we’re better when he’s on the floor.
However, playing him even when he’s not performing is just plain baffling, IMO. I don’t see anyone arguing that BB needs to sit and never see the floor again, but for the love of everything holy, he’s NOT indispensable! When he’s not fulfilling his designated role, why not have a prepared backup in Brycen ready to spell him a couple of mins when needed? When we’re playing well with him on the bench, the few times he has sat, why not keep it going? Why MUST he come back in, even when he’s not particularly helping?
This idea that BG is a scrub not worthy of extended mins, who can’t shoot worth a damn and other teams always leave him totally open, is blatantly ridiculous.
There are no rational reasons BB should be playing these many mins, slump or no slump. Oh sure, he could pull a UVA and explode during an OT to take us over the top, but we have to GET to the damn OT first!!! So why the hell not have BG in there for a few to at the very least, give BB a breather, a chance to refocus, and have his legs under him for the stretch?
JB plays for today, period. And he’ll do it in the best way he thinks will get the win, and rightfully so. But we’ve seen this “short bench, lack-of-depth” movie before, and because we’re at a lower level of talent this year, it’s playing out in worse ways than usual.

 

[tbonezone]

buddy got yanked for missing 2 consecutive treys (one an airball) and lapsing on defensive close outs. goodine came in and closed the gap. catch and shoot. he's a one trick pony right now. deal.

(edit. be warned .when buddy does decide to dribble he's often pushing off with the other arm. he's been lucky not to get called .has been a point of emphasis lately.)

 

[Ghost]

Basically. But semantics wise I guess I see what they’re going for in that “traps” are often based more on where people are on the court than who the player is. Like, you try to trap anyone who dribbles to the corner or the sideline near halfcourt regardless of who the player is.

Whereas “double teams” are typically strategically thrown at star players to make them give up the ball.

This debate is more fun than debating Buddy!

I wouldn't call that a double team at all.

I wouldn't even term it a trap.

Buddy does a good job getting rid of the ball before that option even presents itself. It's a broken defense.

Play starts:

- Nobody is guarding him. Not usually the best strategy on someone you double with purpose.

- Eli has the ball wing extended. Throws the smart pass to Buddy in the corner, because Buddy can shoot the lights out.

- Defender who was on Eli, shifts down because Buddy is a shooter and they're likely instructed not to give him open looks. He has to do this - has to. This likely has nothing to do with a double team, you have an unguarded 40% shooter.

- Baseline guy, who was nowhere near Buddy, closes out hard and ends up on our bench.

This would be akin to saying our Center closing out on a corner three, while Buddy rotates down, due to some bad rotation previously, are now going to "double" the player in the corner. It's not even a trap IMO. Just bad defense with a helter-skelter attempt at recovery.

A trap has some strategy to it, but oft occurs by happenstance as well. A double team is a concerted plan.

 

[malpearl31]

The point is this he has to find a way to impact the game when he is not scoring

To be fair, Buddy did have 2 steals in the final 5 minutes of the game. (Although the boxscore only gives him credit for one for some reason.) He stole the ball from Forrest at mid-court on a Fla St semi-break opportunity (after a horrific turnover by Marek) which led directly to a conventional 3-point play for Hughes with 4:42 remaining to put us up 4. And he also knocked the ball off Forrest's leg and out of bounds with 0:57.8 remaining, giving us the ball back when we were down 3 points.

Buddy's first half was terrible - quite possibly the worst half he's played in his career. But he did not hurt the team in the final 7:51 after he checked back in for Brycen.

 

[OrangeDW]

To be fair, Buddy did have 2 steals in the final 5 minutes of the game. (Although the boxscore only gives him credit for one for some reason.) He stole the ball from Forrest at mid-court on a Fla St semi-break opportunity (after a horrific turnover by Marek) which led directly to a conventional 3-point play for Hughes with 4:42 remaining to put us up 4. And he also knocked the ball off Forrest's leg and out of bounds with 0:57.8 remaining, giving us the ball back when we were down 3 points.

Buddy's first half was terrible - quite possibly the worst half he's played in his career. But he did not hurt the team in the final 7:51 after he checked back in for Brycen.

Two blocks too! Doesn’t count though. He must’ve gotten lucky.

 

[Ghost]

Buddy just went 5-9 from 3 in a game 8 days ago.

Sports fans have the emotional balance of junior high kids, sometimes. People really acting like he sucks and is screwed now, as if teams just suddenly figured out how to stop him. Amazing.

Anyone thinking he's screwed now, or even moving forward, is likely a tad out of their minds. Nobody figured anything new out recently. I really don't think most people think that way though.

Perhaps a few

 

[malpearl31]

thats kind of a silly example. Nobody’s picking him up because it was a semi fast break and there isn’t anyone to pick him up. Where are the other 3 FSU players? Where are the other 2 SU players? There might be someone in the lower left, but it’s certainly not a 5v5 half court offense.

It wasn't really my example... I was responding to a post that (I thought) appeared to give Brycen credit for creating an open driving lane for Hughes. That wasn't the way I saw it - I thought it was a pretty straightforward 3-on-2 fast break opportunity - and that Hughes made a nice, aggressive drive to the basket. Anybody who has ever played organized basketball has likely run some version of a 3-on-2 / 2-on-1 fast break drill like this thousands of times. Fla St defended it correctly, I thought - one defender tried to stop Hughes (the ball), the second defender guarded the cutter (Quincy) and the trailing defender leaked out to the corner. Hughes beat his guy one-on-one, end of story.

 

[Ghost]

It wasn't really my example... I was responding to a post that (I thought) appeared to give Brycen credit for creating an open driving lane for Hughes. That wasn't the way I saw it - I thought it was a pretty straightforward 3-on-2 fast break opportunity - and that Hughes made a nice, aggressive drive to the basket. Anybody who has ever played organized basketball has likely run some version of a 3-on-2 / 2-on-1 fast break drill like this thousands of times. Fla St defended it correctly, I thought - one defender tried to stop Hughes (the ball), the second defender guarded the cutter (Quincy) and the trailing defender leaked out to the corner. Hughes beat his guy one-on-one, end of story.

I think we just confused everyone. Well, likely this is all on me.

I was just making the point that defenders, even with BG in the game, do take him into consideration. More to refute the notion that spacing is only a development brought on by the existence of BB.

On that play, the recovery defender, third Florida State defender to enter the fray, rather than shutting down the driving lane that was opening up for Eli, drifted out to cover BG. And thus, Eli scored!

 

[NineOneSeven]

I regret even posting in this thread, but whatever. Guys get better. That’s how Nova eventually won. We have lost a lot of games where we blew the lead. I think that will change next year.

Ability to close games will improve and the young guys will definitely get better next season. Losing Hughes is a big deal. If he was for sure coming back, this conversation is a lot different. We need a do it all forward on the team and without Hughes we don’t have it.

 

[Sufran]

Ability to close games will improve and the young guys will definitely get better next season. Losing Hughes is a big deal. If he was for sure coming back, this conversation is a lot different. We need a do it all forward on the team and without Hughes we don’t have it.

I am concerned for next year. I don't see Eli coming back. He is a pro and I think he needs to leave. This leaves no one that can do what he does. Just my .02

 

[NineOneSeven]

Great thread and actually some good debate.

Sending screenshots of random plays is a bit much. The ones above were definitely from a broken down break, not a half court setting. Long games with many possessions, you’ll find all sorts of stuff. I’ve watched a few FSU games this year. They are a pretty scrambling defense. You see guys leaving their primary covers all the time to go for surprise steals etc. Its interesting but appears to work for them (for now). The length and number of bodies they play helps.

As for buddy- guy missed shots. Means nothing to me because it happens in basketball. My main thought on it all is I think subbing him out late and playing Hughes up top might have been a better play. When we built the 4pt lead, that strengthens the defense up top and gives more size down low for rebounding. With 3 minutes left, it would have been interesting going offense/defense.