Boeheim should do the right thing and step down now.

[HakAttack]

"Documented" started falling asleep in public? In what context please?

Jim Boeheim explains sleeping photo: "It was before the game. It wasn't during the game."

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Bobby Bowden is universally considered one of the greatest college football coaches of all time. But at the end, it was just time. Things were getting stagnant based on the standards that Bowden himself established.

This is precisely the situation with Boeheim.

Was FSU hit with a bowl ban, or forced to operate with only 72 scholarships, or restricted to having only 2 coaches make recruiting trips?

 

[Townie72]

I'm not disagreeing with you as this was obviously true since we started playing the zone. This year seemed different, the adjustment just didn't seem to be there.

The players would not do what they have been told to do.

It’s that simple. And JB said that in his Presser yesterday. But, as we can see on this board, some people either don’t listen, don’t believe him or want to substitute their own opinions for a variety of reasons (including self-aggrandizement)

The players would not do what they have been told to do.

He said that the Mississippi game was a microcosm of the whole season. The problem has been defense and not offense.

The players have been told to get in the faces of the three-point shooters and not allow them to shoot. They haven’t done that except on a few occasions). Because they don’t do it, we allow the other team to outscore us. As good as our offense is or as good as some of our players are offensively, because the players don’t play defense like they have been told to do, we lose to teams like Mississippi. It happened all season.

It’s really quite simple. The players would not do what they have been told to do.

When the Press asked JB, “Why not?” His response was “I don’t know. You’ll have to ask them”

Now I’m 100% sure that JB has asked the players. But when they get on the floor, they don’t do it. And our bench is so short due to sanctions and players leaving early and recruiting misses, these are the only players we have.

He was not pointing to Battle and Lydon. Yesterday he specifically said Battle’s defense was good.

For my money, JB is the credible source. He’s not lying. He’s not pulling punches at this stage in his career. He’s not trying to manipulate the press.

The players would not do what they have been told to do.

And it’s not because they don’t want to win or because they don’t understand what is being asked. On the court, they revert to what they know best and what they like to do. This says something about trying to bring graduate transfers into a different system or into an environment.

 

[HakAttack]

Huh? Citations please

I addressed that earlier in this thread.

I've been told that he planned to step down twice, after 09', and again after 12'. I won't say more, but it comes from a very respected source on this board. That's all I'll say.

Hop has been more than strung along.

 

[Eric15]

Was FSU hit with a bowl ban, or forced to operate with only 72 scholarships, or restricted to having only 2 coaches make recruiting trips?

Yes, FSU faced sanctions toward the end of Bowdens tenure. He had a bunch of wins taken away in 2006 and 2007.

 

[Dave]

The man was and is integral to everything we love snd appreciate about Syracuse basketball. So many of you have such short perpectives. So many others forget. Before the first NC "coach can't win the big one." "You can't win with zone." He was an innovator who did it HIS WAY. Peoples perceptions of recruiting through the years is so much hooey. What is actually noteable is that we have been spoiled by having so few years like this past year. We have never been able to pick players as though the high school playerswere cafeteria items, like some schools have. Yet he has achieved beyond the dreams and expectations of anyone watching since our HC left to take a job at Tulane!! Fans are funny. I include myself. We agonize and react viscerally and emotionally to events from the individual play to the span of games to the season, to the span of seasons. Reacting this way to a play or a game is OK. We let off steam. We define our expectation around how we accept defeat. In the longer view it isn't rational. A few missed shots last year and many of you would have been calling for Coach to step down. You would have said he is too old, not adaptable etc. How much has he "lost it" or failed to adapt to the changing game since his final four run with a very deficient team? We are staring into an abyss. Probably overly dramatic, but nevertheless. We have no idea what Syracuse hoops will look like for the next 30 years. So many of you are eager to step into that abyss for "new improved", "can relate to young players", won't play exclusively zone". I can only shake my head. Coach is not perfect, but if basketball were war, there is nobody I would rather be in the trenches with... NOBODY, than him. I haven't seen the claimed signs of decline. I saw a patchwork team that he couldn't place into cohesive units. That in and of itself is a rarity. Our love for Syracuse basketball is a very pale echo of his. He goes on his terms. I trust this proud accomplished man to do right by the University.

 

[Townie72]

like just once perhaps a box and one to put an actual hand in the face of a hot shooter ? instead we stand by and continually let these guys burn thru the hull like hot rivets before we ever try to pick them up.

You don't need a box and one to get in the face of a hot shooter. We are not talking about someone who can shoot or drive. It was all outside shooting, and an extended zone based on M2M principles will do that.

The problem has not been the design of the defense, It's the players playing the defense and allowing hot shooters to shoot and shoot.

 

[tbonezone]

so you think it's bad defense to have somebody shadowing a hot shooter out top all game. cuz the zone simply doesn't allow for that. even after they knock down 6 or 7 deep. then you play man on him.

 

[Eric15]

The problem has not been the design of the defense, It's the players playing the defense and allowing hot shooters to shoot and shoot.

To whom should we direct our criticism for not finding the correct players to play our chosen defense and not being able to identify hot shooters?

 

[GooseMutt]

The players would not do what they have been told to do.

It’s that simple. And JB said that in his Presser yesterday. But, as we can see on this board, some people either don’t listen, don’t believe him or want to substitute their own opinions for a variety of reasons (including self-aggrandizement)

The players would not do what they have been told to do.

He said that the Mississippi game was a microcosm of the whole season. The problem has been defense and not offense.

The players have been told to get in the faces of the three-point shooters and not allow them to shoot. They haven’t done that except on a few occasions). Because they don’t do it, we allow the other team to outscore us. As good as our offense is or as good as some of our players are offensively, because the players don’t play defense like they have been told to do, we lose to teams like Mississippi. It happened all season.

It’s really quite simple. The players would not do what they have been told to do.

When the Press asked JB, “Why not?” His response was “I don’t know. You’ll have to ask them”

Now I’m 100% sure that JB has asked the players. But when they get on the floor, they don’t do it. And our bench is so short due to sanctions and players leaving early and recruiting misses, these are the only players we have.

He was not pointing to Battle and Lydon. Yesterday he specifically said Battle’s defense was good.

For my money, JB is the credible source. He’s not lying. He’s not pulling punches at this stage in his career. He’s not trying to manipulate the press.

The players would not do what they have been told to do.

And it’s not because they don’t want to win or because they don’t understand what is being asked. On the court, they revert to what they know best and what they like to do. This says something about trying to bring graduate transfers into a different system or into an environment.

Players not responding is on the coach. How is it more than 1 player doesn't respond- coincidence? You have to give respect to get respect- possible issue? Today's players aren't responding to Boeheims style/demeanor. So many people comment on Boeheims disposition and where there is smoke there is typically fire. I appreciate and respect him but he doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy anymore. His selfish antics on not be adamantly specific on his departure day has hurt this program and put us in limbo. He's now a hindrance .

 

[alphaorange]

At some point the 3 point line will be moved to NBA range, then the zone will be a little more effective for a while.

No, it will not. That just makes more space the defense has to cover and, besides, 24' isn't much more for most D1 shooters, anyway.

 

[PhatOrange]

Players not responding is on the coach. How is it more than 1 player doesn't respond- coincidence? You have to give respect to get respect- possible issue? Today's players aren't responding to Boeheims style/demeanor. So many people comment on Boeheims disposition and where there is smoke there is typically fire. I appreciate and respect him but he doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy anymore. His selfish antics on not be adamantly specific on his departure day has hurt this program and put us in limbo. He's now a hindrance .

Players not responding get benched. See Howard, Roberson and sometime gillon. Problem is there just isn't depth or competition on the roster to get the point across.

Sometimes there is just bad chemistry and cancerous locker rooms, we've seen it here before. It's not necessarily on the coach, sometimes players just have bad attitudes.

When this program nose dives after JB is gone people will be sorry.

And none of this is because JB is mean and hurts kids feeling. Rony Seikly got torched by JB 1000x worse than Roberson ever did.

 

[Townie72]

To whom should we direct our criticism for not finding the correct players to play our chosen defense and not being able to identify hot shooters?

It's just the way the world works. There's no such thing as perfect knowledge of how people are going to react in a different situtation.

And JB and the AC's probably couldn't envision that players coming into the system at that point in the career just wouldn't do what they were told to do. Or maybe psychologically couldn't do what they had been told to do.

Both White and Gillon were brought in to fill a short term need. They were the best players available. You know that.

I don't think anyone in the gym including players and coaches can't identify the hot shooters. They are the ones that keep making baskets.

Now to your real objective. Why is it you need to direct criticism to anyone? Why this need to affix blame?

 

[tbonezone]

Players not responding get benched. See Howard, Roberson and sometime gillon. Problem is there just isn't depth or competition on the roster to get the point across.

Sometimes there is just bad chemistry and cancerous locker rooms, we've seen it here before. It's not necessarily on the coach, sometimes players just have bad attitudes.

When this program nose dives after JB is gone people will be sorry.

And none of this is because JB is mean and hurts kids feeling. Rony Seikly got torched by JB 1000x worse than Roberson ever did.

rony started all but 3 of his 136 games.

 

[Eric15]

Now to your real objective. Why is it you need to direct criticism to anyone? Why this need to affix blame?

Because this isn't a youth soccer league where it's just about having fun and learning fundamentals.

 

[Townie72]

Players not responding is on the coach. How is it more than 1 player doesn't respond- coincidence? You have to give respect to get respect- possible issue? Today's players aren't responding to Boeheims style/demeanor. So many people comment on Boeheims disposition and where there is smoke there is typically fire. I appreciate and respect him but he doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy anymore. His selfish antics on not be adamantly specific on his departure day has hurt this program and put us in limbo. He's now a hindrance .

Battle and Lydon seem to be responding OK.

And White and Gillon may have wanted to. But their instincts on the court in the heat of battle wouldn't let them.

And to the rest of your post:
"Players not responding"
"Smoke and fire"
"Selfish antics"

Sounds like an internet temper tantrum on your part.

Coach K said it best. Brillance, competitveness and loyalty describes JB. I hope people up there appreciate what they have, sad K.

Apparently there are some that don't.

 

[Townie72]

Because this isn't a youth soccer league where it's just about having fun and learning fundamentals.

Why you are doing it has nothing to do with the level of the game and everything to do with your reaction to frustration and disappointment.

 

[Dave]

Many of you sound like the drunk guy in the bar who, through whatever tendencies in life lead to him be drunk in a bar, and through the magic of intoxication, is driven to certainty, and to share his opinions with anyone within earshot. Bars are fine. Drunk guys are fine so long as nobody gets hurt. Opinion forums are fine. Thankfully the decision makers are likely not posting on here or scouring the debate for guidance.
I offer all a metaphoric white rose in solidarity with all who self identify as 'Cuse fans. May they dedicate a restroom to us.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

The JB of 10 years ago needed a miracle run by some kid from Scranton to not go to the NIT 3 years in a row...oops...

Maybe you meant the JB of 5 years ago? Crap. Lost to 11 seed as a 3.

Or 35? Double-crap. NIT.

30? Triple crap. Navy.

25? Lotsa crap. Richmond.

20? There we go.

JB clearly not infallible. The zone has gotten so complicated that, if you don't have mostly multi-year guys returning, playing it effectively is a problem.

And, in today's college hoops, if you have mostly multi-year guys, chances are they are not elite players.

That is a real problem.

JB's move to the zone was genius. Almost nobody played it. Teams did not know how to attack it.

No longer the case. Lots of teams play zone at least some of the time.

Hope Hop has taken note.

Sorry to reply to my own post but a few more thoughts...

We have evolved into a system program.

Clearly, the staff vastly underestimated how long it would taken even seasoned players like White and Gillon to learn the zone and play it well.

We need to recruit for the zone and we need guys who are going to stay long enough to be able to play the zone really, really well.

This means we need a lot of three and four-year players.

We need to be...Wisconsin...who started four seniors yesterday.

10-15 years ago (and maybe even 5 years ago), this was not the case.

If you watch our 2003 team, they were not a good defensive team.

In fact, if the 2003 team were playing today, there would be a lot of Boeheim press conferences that would start out similar to what we heard all year about our defense.

The difference is that teams were so unfamiliar with the zone back then, since they never saw it, that they literally had no idea how to attack it.

That advantage has disappeared since there is so much zone being played around the country. Teams now know how to attack the zone.

Thus, in order to be successful, we cannot just play zone, we have to play an elite zone. Huge difference.

And in order to do that you need defenders who can play it instinctively. And doing anything instinctively simply takes time.

So, if Hop is going to continue with Boeheim's philosophy, we need to be recruiting guys who we know are going to be mostly three and four year players.

And the only ones who stay four years are ones who are not good enough for the next level. They either can't shoot or they can't put the ball on the floor or they are too thin or they are not athletic enough for the next level.

Maybe you can try and recruit one one- or two-and done guys each year but you simply cannot be in a position where you are swapping out most of your starters year after year.

Won't work anymore.

 

[PhatOrange]

rony started all but 3 of his 136 games.

Point?

 

[OttoinGrotto]

So if Hop is gone, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that JB should not step down.

 

[tbonezone]

reply was to "players not responding to getting benched." above and they brought up rony's name. ergo...

 

[GooseMutt]

Battle and Lydon seem to be responding OK.

And White and Gillon may have wanted to. But their instincts on the court in the heat of battle wouldn't let them.

And to the rest of your post:
"Players not responding"
"Smoke and fire"
"Selfish antics"

Sounds like an internet temper tantrum on your part.

Coach K said it best. Brillance, competitveness and loyalty describes JB. I hope people up there appreciate what they have, sad K.

Apparently there are some that don't.

Cmon now Tyler and Tyus are the teachers pets(and deservingly so) and went beginning to end without his criticism. He showed them RESPECT. They responded accordingly.

 

[orangeinohio]

I was just thinking yesterday that I'm going to miss seeing Jimmy B angrily chewing out players on the bench.
Not so fast...

 

[GooseMutt]

Many of you sound like the drunk guy in the bar who, through whatever tendencies in life lead to him be drunk in a bar, and through the magic of intoxication, is driven to certainty, and to share his opinions with anyone within earshot. Bars are fine. Drunk guys are fine so long as nobody gets hurt. Opinion forums are fine. Thankfully the decision makers are likely not posting on here or scouring the debate for guidance.
I offer all a metaphoric white rose in solidarity with all who self identify as 'Cuse fans. May they dedicate a restroom to us.

Huh