Broken Approach needs to change

[RF2044]

Anybody who doesn't post what RF or yourself wants to hear is suddenly a defeatist. I prefer to use the term realist. You can be realistic about something without giving up. I will root just as hard whether I think our team is NC caliber or NIT caliber.

Look at the lineup that you cited - nobody proven up front and nobody who any opponent would find scary from three point range. If by some chance Lydon came back that would be huge both for the frontcourt and the trey shooting. Battle & Howard are making a few, but both don't have great trey shooting forms & they will lack consistency from distance unless they can improve their form.

I did not say that we can't salvage this class, way too early for that. All I said is that what we have RIGHT now spells NIT.

The game has changed - three point shooting is a necessity. We need to find at least two wings who are good enough overall to get on the court & good enough to drill it from afar consistently. If we don't find some help we will not be dancing next season.

Hardly. To listen to you, we should cancel the season next year because the sky is perpetually falling. And it isn't just this topic--it is virtually EVERY topic that you post about. It's tiresome, and I'm obviously not the only one who is calling you out on the way your posts trend.

No kidding, we have to build depth, and we're looking at an incomplete class of 2017. But anyone who looks at a team that could feature Howard, Battle, and Thompson and see NIT is excessively hand wringing.

 

[Cusefan0307]

No, I have not seen any games so far. I am looking forward to getting some broadcasts out here in NM. However, the looks they are getting against Colgate will not be the looks that they will get against Duke.

Even, if those guys are the real deal from trey range, you still need 4 or 5 trey shooters on the roster and 1 or 2 of them have to be frontcourt players. That is why we are so good this year and that is why next year's team needs more help.

Agreed we need more shooting, but Battle and Howard aren't getting open looks right on the line. If anything they have been a couple of feet behind it.

 

[PhatOrange]

This means you have to be willing to take the bird in hand. It's what they do in football.

If you want to wait until your A#1 commits then be prepared to be left at the alter.

If you're recruiting other kids but are holding them off then be prepared for them to commit elsewhere.

That's the quandary. Take the bird in hand or not?

IMO Syracuse is a selector school and they shouldn't take the bird in hand if they think they can get a better player. Especially depending on need.

Losing Quade doesn't mean diddly. Howard is a 4 year player and 3 year starter.

 

[Cusefan0307]

He committed to us Monday night. That is a fact.

Someone is certainly feeding Seth Greenberg info. Greenberg is saying UK should be investigated for the Green recruitment. It has to be JB, because he was just on ESPN and said Green verbally committed to Syracuse before the UK game in NYC last week. Interesting.

 

[jordoo]

Someone is certainly feeding Seth Greenberg info. Greenberg is saying UK should be investigated for the Green recruitment. It has to be JB, because he was just on ESPN and said Green verbally committed to Syracuse before the UK game in NYC last week. Interesting.

The most shocking thing to me is that ESPN let him say that.

 

[rrlbees]

Something SU wasn't offering.

I agree with that. And he got it Tuesday or Wednesday.

 

[%man]

"Committed" is certainly subject to gradation.

 

[jordoo]

As far as next years team and shooting if Battle and Lydon are back we are in good shape and simply need to add depth at the guard spot and a wing shooter/scorer that can play the 3 but preferably both the 2 and the 3. To me that is why Tucker is so important know. Get him in to visit, sit him down and tell him "hey look we have a need for a player just like you, Duke's not offering you and all the other high profile schools have backed off. We'll give you a shot but you better cut out the behavior that was concerning."

If Lydon is gone and we bring in Tucker and a 4 year type PG/combo guard then again we are in pretty good shape.

If Battle goes to the NBA we have a lot more work to do IMO. That is where things look troubling.

 

[jordoo]

I agree with that. And he got it Tuesday or Wednesday.

As do I. I expected that you knew what I was inferring.

 

[%man]

I agree with that. And he got it Tuesday or Wednesday.

I've asked a question many times over the years and have never received a logical answer. Maybe I can get one here. If a school is offering money to recruits, why in the heck hasn't one of the 100s that have chosen other schools not exposed them?

 

[Ward]

Someone is certainly feeding Seth Greenberg info. Greenberg is saying UK should be investigated for the Green recruitment. It has to be JB, because he was just on ESPN and said Green verbally committed to Syracuse before the UK game in NYC last week. Interesting.

Wow, did he really say that? Good for him if true.

 

[81South]

Our coaches are top notch, they will figure something out to make sure we stay 'top shelf', but I really would like to kick Cal in the nuts.

 

[Oráiste]

I don't know how true the story is, but in my lurking days I read many times the story of the Class of 2004 Point Guard recruitment: that Boeheim was after all three of Kyle Lowry, AJ Price and Josh Wright and told them that the first to sign would get the slot. We all know that, as it happened, we ended up with the only bust of the lot.

Now, 2017 seems like a reverse of that: rather than taking the first kid to accept, we let the others know that we were really only interested in Green. Two different approaches, similar failure (at least so far, let's see what happens).

This reminds me of a book that came out last year called Foolproof: How Safety Can Be Dangerous & Danger Makes us Safe.

The idea behind the book is that sometimes "learning lessons" from a failure can actually plant the seeds for a future tragedy. For example, one lesson of 9/11 was to harden & lock the cockpit doors. Now, in this decade, there have been 2 pilots who have killed themselves & their passengers by using this system to lock the other pilot out of the cockpit & deliberately crash their planes.

 

[Funk Doc]

No, I have not seen any games so far. I am looking forward to getting some broadcasts out here in NM. However, the looks they are getting against Colgate will not be the looks that they will get against Duke.

Even, if those guys are the real deal from trey range, you still need 4 or 5 trey shooters on the roster and 1 or 2 of them have to be frontcourt players. That is why we are so good this year and that is why next year's team needs more help.

I get what you are trying to say, but I disagree. This team has three guys(Howard, Gillon, and Battle) who can break a defender down, collapse the defense and kick out to open shooters. When's the last time we had a guard like that? Prolly MCW, Devo, Flynn? This lineup is going to create lots of open looks.

Lastly, I don't know where you've been in recent years, but Duke is far from a defensive juggernaut! If you said Louisville, I may have gotten on board!

 

[RF2044]

This means you have to be willing to take the bird in hand. It's what they do in football.

If you want to wait until your A#1 commits then be prepared to be left at the alter.

If you're recruiting other kids but are holding them holding off then be prepared for them to commit elsewhere.

That's the quandary. Take the bird in hand or not?

IMO Syracuse is a selector school and they shouldn't take the bird in hand if they think they can get a better player. Especially depending on need.

Losing Quade doesn't mean diddly. Howard is a 4 year player and 3 year starter.

I don't know how true the story is, but in my lurking days I read many times the story of the Class of 2004 Point Guard recruitment: that Boeheim was after all three of Kyle Lowry, AJ Price and Josh Wright and told them that the first to sign would get the slot. We all know that, as it happened, we ended up with the only bust of the lot.

Now, 2017 seems like a reverse of that: rather than taking the first kid to accept, we let the others know that we were really only interested in Green. Two different approaches, similar failure (at least so far, let's see what happens).

This reminds me of a book that came out last year called Foolproof: How Safety Can Be Dangerous & Danger Makes us Safe.

The idea behind the book is that sometimes "learning lessons" from a failure can actually plant the seeds for a future tragedy. For example, one lesson of 9/11 was to harden & lock the cockpit doors. Now, in this decade, there have been 2 pilots who have killed themselves & their passengers by using this system to lock the other pilot out of the cockpit & deliberately crash their planes.

Both of these are good posts. Unfortunately, there is no foolproof / one size fits all solution for how to approach recruiting. There have been times where we've taken the first come first serve approach, and it hasn't worked out; there have been times when we've held out for our top choice, and it hasn't worked out. And there have been numerous times where things HAVE worked out.

The only fault I have with the approach our coaches took was that they allowed it to string out this long. They should have had a deadline / ultimatum / cut off point of September AT THE LATEST, which would have enabled them to get onto other prospects [Coleman, Washington, etc.] if Green balked.

But in terms of their approach--they showed this kid all the love, they told him that he was their guy, and they stopped recruiting others to prove it. And in fact, they secured a commitment last week... before Green reneged.

 

[PhatOrange]

To follow. This is why JB usually doesn't waste his time with these types of players. He takes his top B+ kid (the bird in hand) more often than not and then people get up in arms about it for not recruiting the top 10 player harder. Well this is what can happen when you do. You miss out.

These guys stayed after Quade because they thought they had him.

I agree with RF that they should have given him a deadline. When your a selector school you can do that and you should do that.

 

[IthacaMatt]

100% correct. Green was just playing us for quite a while, but when we offered Coleman it really got his attention. SU should never have cancelled his visit. Looking back, they might have received a commitment from Green. He made several visits once we offered Coleman. Getting on someone early doesn't guarantee you anything. SU was almost burned by Battle and should have already learned a lesson. JB is going to leave the cupboard pretty bare if this continues.

I think JB is losing his desire to recruit. We let a lot of good players just walk away this cycle because they were too far away, etc. It was like we just didn't want to work hard enough to get them.

 

[IthacaMatt]

If/when we get Battle and Howard back next season, we simply don't need a top level guard. Would it be nice to have one? .

And if we don't? Then what?

 

[Jasoncuse]

I just want to know why, with up to 7 spots available, that we have only been able to add one recruit with probably another tonight? If playing in front of 30,000 people, immediate PT and a pipeline to the NBA that most schools could only dream of wasn't enough to get more players and any high ends ones, then why is that the case? What is going on? Is it the uncertainty with JB? Something else?

 

[RF2044]

I just want to know why, with up to 7 spots available, that we have only been able to add one recruit with probably another tonight? If playing in front of 30,000 people, immediate PT and a pipeline to the NBA that most schools could only dream of wasn't enough to get more players and any high ends ones, then why is that the case? What is going on? Is it the uncertainty with JB? Something else?

I believe that JB's impending retirement has certainly been an issue. It hasn't up until this point, because it was still a ways off. But now coaches can say, he might not be there after your freshman year, and it is impactful.

We also put too many eggs in the Quade Green basket, to the exclusionary expense of a few other quality guards we could have gotten.

Most of all, I'm puzzled by how they've handled going after wings for the class of 2017. It is almost like they expected to get Randolph, and that's where they invested their focus. My opinion only, but adding quality wings [2s and 3s] was / is the most important task for this class. Green was a big loss, but at least we have a PG on the roster -- who starts at the wing spots next year?

 

[OrangeXtreme]

I'm sure the NCAA sanctions which limited the number of coaches who could be on the road recruiting had something to do with it.

 

[Brooky03]

And if we don't? Then what?

Then we're boned?

 

[jordville]

Anyone have a link or what Greenberg actaully said? Sportscenter?

 

[tbonezone]

I think JB is losing his desire to recruit. We let a lot of good players just walk away this cycle because they were too far away, etc. It was like we just didn't want to work hard enough to get them.

i don't think JB really understands recruiting anymore or even wants to learn the new game this far along into his storied career.
quade green doesn't hurt us as bad as say stephon marbury. marbury said he was definitely coming here for 2 years. quade was always question mark.

 

[OttoMets]

I just want to know why, with up to 7 spots available, that we have only been able to add one recruit with probably another tonight? If playing in front of 30,000 people, immediate PT and a pipeline to the NBA that most schools could only dream of wasn't enough to get more players and any high ends ones, then why is that the case? What is going on? Is it the uncertainty with JB? Something else?

There's one thing that SU fans take pride in that doesn't mean as much to recruits: the 30,000 fans thing.

For SU fans, big capacity for big games is really cool. For players, not so much: SU plays twice as many home games each year in a half-empty building with no atmosphere as they play games in front of 30,000.

Now why has SU been spurned so often of late? I bet you're right about one of those reasons, the retirement uncertainty. There're all sorts of other reasons that could apply to one or more individuals. The cash thing isn't just sour grapes; Kentucky, like SU and every major program has done over the years, finds a way to reward certain recruits. A lot of high school kids conduct themselves like attention-mongers; there's no doubt that Kentucky (all over ESPN like a reality show) is more attractive than SU, a legitimate program that doesn't get nearly that level of exposure in this era of sportscelebrityentertainment.