Buss in the doghouse today?

[OttoMets]

Craig Forth over the 2001 center platoon, too.

 

[HoustonCuse]

Oh nos, another Triche sucks thread!!! How is it possible.

I never understood it and I understand it less now than when he was actually playing. He's the #1 guy in wins in the history of the program. How could anyone say we'd have been better off benching him?

 

[AZOrange]

Triche was a decent to good college player that had 2 NBA lottery picks riding pine behind him. I don't buy for a minute that MCW and Dion "weren't ready". MCW specifically was better than Triche his freshman year, but didn't get to play because of JB's love affair with Triche. Cooney will see 35+ minutes until he graduates; anyone who thinks Malachi is going to start over Cooney has not been watching Syracuse basketball for more than a season.

We've been through this before. Triche and MCW played alongside each other en route to the final four. The year before mcw (a pg) was behind scoop, triche and dion. None of which averaged more than 25 mpg. You're just making up facts.

The year before dion (as an out of shape freshman) played 16 mpg to triches 28

 

[statsgrad]

We've been through this before. Triche and MCW played alongside each other en route to the final four. The year before mcw (a pg) was behind scoop, triche and dion. None of which averaged more than 25 mpg. You're just making up facts.

The year before dion (as an out of shape freshman) played 16 mpg to triches 28

1. Two guard spots = 80 MPG
2. 3 guards playing 20-25 leaves not very much for MCW
3. The 20-25 are artificially low due to OOC
4. My argument was that MCW deserved AT LEAST some of Triche's minutes, if not all. I made no point about MCW deserving Dion's minutes.

Your assertion that I was making up facts was just plain wrong. Triche playing alongside MCW en route to the final four is completely irrelevant to the point I was making. Your point about MCW being behind Scoop as well probably just reinforces the point I was making about an NBA rookie of the year riding pine due to JB's blind loyalty. Thanks for the help.

 

[Cusefan0307]

1. Two guard spots = 80 MPG
2. 3 guards playing 20-25 leaves not very much for MCW
3. The 20-25 are artificially low due to OOC
4. My argument was that MCW deserved AT LEAST some of Triche's minutes, if not all. I made no point about MCW deserving Dion's minutes.

Your assertion that I was making up facts was just plain wrong. Triche playing alongside MCW en route to the final four is completely irrelevant to the point I was making. Your point about MCW being behind Scoop as well probably just reinforces the point I was making about an NBA rookie of the year riding pine due to JB's blind loyalty. Thanks for the help.

We went 34-3 in 11-12. We lost to Ohio State 77-70 in the Elite 8. Brandon Triche scored 15 points in that game. Scoop Jardine had 14 points and 6 assists in that game. Dion Waiters had a bad game. He was 2-8. They were the two best players for Syracuse that day. MCW could of played for Triche or Scoop and we still wouldn't of made the final four! Nothing would of changed that season if MCW played more minutes!

 

[Oakland]

Concerning MCW, he was shooting something like 35/25/55% when he played OOC in his frosh season. In other words, he couldn't hit the side of the barn.

Triche was a decent to good college player that had 2 NBA lottery picks riding pine behind him. I don't buy for a minute that MCW and Dion "weren't ready". MCW specifically was better than Triche his freshman year, but didn't get to play because of JB's love affair with Triche. Cooney will see 35+ minutes until he graduates; anyone who thinks Malachi is going to start over Cooney has not been watching Syracuse basketball for more than a season.

 

[rrlbees]

We went 34-3 in 11-12. We lost to Ohio State 77-70 in the Elite 8. Brandon Triche scored 15 points in that game. Scoop Jardine had 14 points and 6 assists in that game. Dion Waiters had a bad game He was 2-8. They were the two best players for Syracuse that day. MCW could of played for Triche or Scoop and we still wouldn't of made the final four! Nothing would of changed that season if MCW played more minutes!

Don't waste your breath. Mcw wasn't ready as a frosh no matter how many times someone says he was.

 

[AZOrange]

1. Two guard spots = 80 MPG 2. 3 guards playing 20-25 leaves not very much for MCW 3. The 20-25 are artificially low due to OOC 4. My argument was that MCW deserved AT LEAST some of Triche's minutes, if not all. I made no point about MCW deserving Dion's minutes. Your assertion that I was making up facts was just plain wrong. Triche playing alongside MCW en route to the final four is completely irrelevant to the point I was making. Your point about MCW being behind Scoop as well probably just reinforces the point I was making about an NBA rookie of the year riding pine due to JB's blind loyalty. Thanks for the help.

Lol. Bad post no. 2.

The numbers were not artificially low. I don't have time to go back through each game but in the 2 Louisville games triche played 23 and 28 mpg. That's not the cupcake portion. And on the season he averaged 22.5 mpg.

My point about 2013 should have been clear to anyone that pays attention to the Orange. They played alongside each other in 2013 because they could. Triche was a 2 here. McW a 1. Triche had nearly nothing to do with mcws frosh mpg. Scoop and McW would have been awful.

I mean we're a dopey center from probably winning it all that year and your gripe minutes?

 

[statsgrad]

Lol. Bad post no. 2.

The numbers were not artificially low. I don't have time to go back through each game but in the 2 Louisville games triche played 23 and 28 mpg. That's not the cupcake portion. And on the season he averaged 22.5 mpg.

My point about 2013 should have been clear to anyone that pays attention to the Orange. They played alongside each other in 2013 because they could. Triche was a 2 here. McW a 1. Triche had nearly nothing to do with mcws frosh mpg. Scoop and McW would have been awful.

I mean we're a dopey center from probably winning it all that year and your gripe minutes?

You're still not following simple math. Even your two Louisville data points show that his per minute average of 22.5 is artificially low. So again, you proved a point for me despite saying I'm wrong. When I say artificially low, I'm not suggesting he played 100 mpg here. Try averaging 23 and 28 with a calculator and see what you get.

Also in those 2 Louisville games MCW registered 4 minutes and a DNP to Triche's 23 and 28.

To the people saying MCW wasn't ready/throwing out stats from their head:
2011-2012 season:
MCW: .431 FG%, .389 3P%, 2.1 AST, 0.6 TO
Triche: .422 FG%, .350 3p%, 2.6 AST, 1.4 TO

If you're telling me Triche deserved to play 51 minutes against Lville and MCW 4 you're out of your mind. JB plays guys based on loyalty, there isn't any debate about it.

 

[Cusefan0307]

You're still not following simple math. Even your two Louisville data points show that his per minute average of 22.5 is artificially low. So again, you proved a point for me despite saying I'm wrong. When I say artificially low, I'm not suggesting he played 100 mpg here. Try averaging 23 and 28 with a calculator and see what you get.

Also in those 2 Louisville games MCW registered 4 minutes and a DNP to Triche's 23 and 28.

To the people saying MCW wasn't ready/throwing out stats from their head:
2011-2012 season:
MCW: .431 FG%, .389 3P%, 2.1 AST, 0.6 TO
Triche: .422 FG%, .350 3p%, 2.6 AST, 1.4 TO

If you're telling me Triche deserved to play 51 minutes against Lville and MCW 4 you're out of your mind. JB plays guys based on loyalty, if you'd just admit that you'd stop looking so dumb.

So mcw was the best three point shooter on that team in 11-12. Better than scoop, dion, krisjo, triche, or southerland?

 

[AZOrange]

You're still not following simple math. Even your two Louisville data points show that his per minute average of 22.5 is artificially low. So again, you proved a point for me despite saying I'm wrong. When I say artificially low, I'm not suggesting he played 100 mpg here. Try averaging 23 and 28 with a calculator and see what you get.

Also in those 2 Louisville games MCW registered 4 minutes and a DNP to Triche's 23 and 28.

To the people saying MCW wasn't ready/throwing out stats from their head:
2011-2012 season:
MCW: .431 FG%, .389 3P%, 2.1 AST, 0.6 TO
Triche: .422 FG%, .350 3p%, 2.6 AST, 1.4 TO

If you're telling me Triche deserved to play 51 minutes against Lville and MCW 4 you're out of your mind. JB plays guys based on loyalty, there isn't any debate about it.

I picked Ville for a reason. The first game he basically played to his average and the second game he won us the game and dominated and still only played 28...triches mpg were down 6 pg from the prior year. It was probably one of the biggest reductions year over year for a Boeheim player I'd bet. Triche had almost nothing to do with McW on the bench.

 

[AZOrange]

So mcw was the best three point shooter on that team in 11-12. Better than scoop, dion, krisjo, triche, or southerland?

I'm still trying to figure out the point. If MCW played we would have won more games? lol.

 

[statsgrad]

So mcw was the best three point shooter on that team in 11-12. Better than scoop, dion, krisjo, triche, or southerland?

I have no idea where you see that I implied that, I assume you're trying to make the point that stats don't tell the whole truth -- but the stats tell the truth that MCW was at least on the same level as Triche in terms of his shooting numbers (which others had implied he was not, and the reason he wasn't getting playing time). My argument was in disproving the conception that he "wasn't ready."

AZOrange -- The point is that JB plays guys based on loyalty. How many times have we had an injury where we said "boy I wish his backup had at least had some minutes this season so that he was ready." Would you have liked Xmas to have had at least some experience when Fab got suspended? Would you have at least liked to see what a semi seasoned frosh MCW could have done against Craft/Lenzelle Smith when our other guards were struggling mightily? I know I would have.

My point is actually the opposite -- I'd prefer JB win less games -- I'd be fine losing a game or two early on just to get the young guys some seasoning. Does it mean we beat Ohio State? I doubt it. But could it have really hurt? Dion fouled out that game and our guards shot a combined 11-30. If MCW gets minutes and picks up even one extra foul on Sullinger it's a completely different game. If Xmas get's time throughout the year and that allows him to pick up even one extra foul on Sullinger, it's a completely different game.

Given MCW's talent and stats per 40 relative to Triche, Scoop, Dion whomever -- I don't know how you can tell me he was deserving of 4 minutes and a DNP against Lville. He beat them single- handedly the very next season.

 

[AZOrange]

I have no idea where you see that I implied that, I assume you're trying to make the point that stats don't tell the whole truth -- but the stats tell the truth that MCW was at least on the same level as Triche in terms of his shooting numbers (which others had implied he was not, and the reason he wasn't getting playing time). My argument was in disproving the conception that he "wasn't ready."

AZOrange -- The point is that JB plays guys based on loyalty. How many times have we had an injury where we said "boy I wish his backup had at least had some minutes this season so that he was ready." Would you have liked Xmas to have had at least some experience when Fab got suspended? Would you have at least liked to see what a semi seasoned frosh MCW could have done against Craft/Lenzelle Smith when our other guards were struggling mightily? I know I would have.

My point is actually the opposite -- I'd prefer JB win less games -- I'd be fine losing a game or two early on just to get the young guys some seasoning. Does it mean we beat Ohio State? I doubt it. But could it have really hurt? Dion fouled out that game and our guards shot a combined 11-30. If MCW gets minutes and picks up even one extra foul on Sullinger it's a completely different game. If Xmas get's time throughout the year and that allows him to pick up even one extra foul on Sullinger, it's a completely different game.

Given MCW's talent and stats per 40 relative to Triche, Scoop, Dion whomever -- I don't know how you can tell me he was deserving of 4 minutes and a DNP against Lville. He beat them single- handedly the very next season.

I don't buy the loyalty argument with respect to triche. Triche had seen his minutes decline in his junior year! By nearly 25 percent! Dion was taking all the free minutes and jB owed him no loyalty.

 

[rrlbees]

I have no idea where you see that I implied that, I assume you're trying to make the point that stats don't tell the whole truth -- but the stats tell the truth that MCW was at least on the same level as Triche in terms of his shooting numbers (which others had implied he was not, and the reason he wasn't getting playing time). My argument was in disproving the conception that he "wasn't ready." AZOrange -- The point is that JB plays guys based on loyalty. How many times have we had an injury where we said "boy I wish his backup had at least had some minutes this season so that he was ready." Would you have liked Xmas to have had at least some experience when Fab got suspended? Would you have at least liked to see what a semi seasoned frosh MCW could have done against Craft/Lenzelle Smith when our other guards were struggling mightily? I know I would have. My point is actually the opposite -- I'd prefer JB win less games -- I'd be fine losing a game or two early on just to get the young guys some seasoning. Does it mean we beat Ohio State? I doubt it. But could it have really hurt? Dion fouled out that game and our guards shot a combined 11-30. If MCW gets minutes and picks up even one extra foul on Sullinger it's a completely different game. If Xmas get's time throughout the year and that allows him to pick up even one extra foul on Sullinger, it's a completely different game. Given MCW's talent and stats per 40 relative to Triche, Scoop, Dion whomever -- I don't know how you can tell me he was deserving of 4 minutes and a DNP against Lville. He beat them single- handedly the very next season.

When and who did mcw play against? You look at things in a vacuum. By your logic, Riley Dixon should be our QB.

And mcw is a pg. Rag on scoop.

We had a great record. JB knew what he was doing.

 

[statsgrad]

Roy Williams has a great record too. Is he therefore automatically infallable? Sans the greatest freshman in the history of college basketball you and JB have the same number of titles. JB has flaws. Great coaches can have flaws. Great coaches can make mistakes. We would have been better off that year with a deeper bench. Some other years, maybe not. But that year he made a mistake.

 

[rrlbees]

Roy Williams has a great record too. Is he therefore automatically infallable? Sans the greatest freshman in the history of college basketball you and JB have the same number of titles. JB has flaws. Great coaches can have flaws. Great coaches can make mistakes. We would have been better off that year with a deeper bench. Some other years, maybe not. But that year he made a mistake.

I'll take a 34-3 mistake every year.

 

[statsgrad]

I'll take a 34-3 mistake every year.

I'd prefer a 31-6 team and a national title, but that's just me.

 

[longtimefan]

I'd prefer a 31-6 team and a national title, but that's just me.

Losing more games early does not guarantee winning more games late.

 

[statsgrad]

Losing more games early does not guarantee winning more games late.

Some of the leaps in logic made on this message board are amongst the most astonishingly fantastic things I have ever read.

I'll humor you: No, throwing games away early probably does not lead to winning more games late. But developing your bench and/or younger players is generally a good thing for later in the season. Before someone jumps on that with one totally awesome data point about how some coach in 1948 won a title with a 5 man rotation, please look up the definition of generally.

I had started writing up something about Louisville and Michigan State but that's only going to lead to more fantastical leaps in logic -- at this point the arguments some of you are making are so far removed from the issue of "are/was Cooney and Triche really deserving of causing their backups to register DNPs" that it's not even worth discussing anymore.

 

[statsgrad]

At the end of the season nobody is going to say "well thank god we played Cooney 36 minutes and preserved that extra win against Hampton." But if Cooney gets hurt or for some reason becomes ineligible people will absolutely say "why did Patterson only play 4 minutes against Hampton and DNP against every ACC team?"

JB coaches to win every single game, which I am arguing is short sighted -- I'd rather see him coach to make the team as deep and robust as possible going into March.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I'd prefer a 31-6 team and a national title, but that's just me.

So answer my question. How would of mcw playing more minutes affect that season. Brandon Triche and Scoop jar dine were our two best players against Ohio State in the season ending loss. Was MCW playing better than the two of them and Dion in the game? No, he wasn't. Our season ended because we lost our post prescence and couldn't stop Sullinger down low. Mcw could of played more and we still would of lost in the same round.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

Some of the leaps in logic made on this message board are amongst the most astonishingly fantastic things I have ever read.

I'll humor you: No, throwing games away early probably does not lead to winning more games late. But developing your bench and/or younger players is generally a good thing for later in the season. Before someone jumps on that with one totally awesome data point about how some coach in 1948 won a title with a 5 man rotation, please look up the definition of generally.

I had started writing up something about Louisville and Michigan State but that's only going to lead to more fantastical leaps in logic -- at this point the arguments some of you are making are so far removed from the issue of "are/was Cooney and Triche really deserving of causing their backups to register DNPs" that it's not even worth discussing anymore.

LOL...you castigate posters for "leaps of logic.".

You, on the other hand, post your opinions as irrefutable "facts" that cannot be dismissed.

It is your OPINION that MCW was ready as a frosh. It is not a fact and you have absolutely no way of knowing if MCW was ready unless you saw him at practice each and every day that season. And, even then, it would still be an opinion, albeit an informed opinion and the not an uninformed one, that you are positing as fact.

It is also your opinion that giving bench players more playing time will lead to more success in the NCAA tournament. You post that it is "generally" so yet you provide no evidence for that statement.

You are welcome to have your opinions and post as such but don't dismiss other posters and insinuate they are stupid because they don't agree with your point of view.

 

[AZOrange]

Roy Williams has a great record too. Is he therefore automatically infallable? Sans the greatest freshman in the history of college basketball you and JB have the same number of titles. JB has flaws. Great coaches can have flaws. Great coaches can make mistakes. We would have been better off that year with a deeper bench. Some other years, maybe not. But that year he made a mistake.

Lol again. What mistake? That seasons fail had only to do with fab Melo (you keep ignoring this). McW and triche played completely different positions as seen in 2013 (you keep ignoring this). Triche a junior had seen a substantial decline in mpg (quite the opposite of what you'd expect of a "favorite"). Dion waiters was one big reason all the extra guard minutes were gobbled up (you said this wasn't about dion).

You just made a bad point about triche.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Lol again. What mistake? That seasons fail had only to do with fab Melo (you keep ignoring this). McW and triche played completely different positions as seen in 2013 (you keep ignoring this). Triche a junior had seen a substantial decline in mpg (quite the opposite of what you'd expect of a "favorite"). Dion waiters was one big reason all the extra guard minutes were gobbled up (you said this wasn't about dion).

You just made a bad point about triche.

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=320840183

There's the game that ended our season. We got outrebounded 37-22, so unless MCW could of played the post we still would of lost if he played. Triche and Scoop weren't the problem in that game.