Buss in the doghouse today?

[OttoMets]

I have no idea where you see that I implied that, I assume you're trying to make the point that stats don't tell the whole truth -- but the stats tell the truth that MCW was at least on the same level as Triche in terms of his shooting numbers (which others had implied he was not, and the reason he wasn't getting playing time). My argument was in disproving the conception that he "wasn't ready."

AZOrange -- The point is that JB plays guys based on loyalty. How many times have we had an injury where we said "boy I wish his backup had at least had some minutes this season so that he was ready." Would you have liked Xmas to have had at least some experience when Fab got suspended? Would you have at least liked to see what a semi seasoned frosh MCW could have done against Craft/Lenzelle Smith when our other guards were struggling mightily? I know I would have.

My point is actually the opposite -- I'd prefer JB win less games -- I'd be fine losing a game or two early on just to get the young guys some seasoning. Does it mean we beat Ohio State? I doubt it. But could it have really hurt? Dion fouled out that game and our guards shot a combined 11-30. If MCW gets minutes and picks up even one extra foul on Sullinger it's a completely different game. If Xmas get's time throughout the year and that allows him to pick up even one extra foul on Sullinger, it's a completely different game.

Given MCW's talent and stats per 40 relative to Triche, Scoop, Dion whomever -- I don't know how you can tell me he was deserving of 4 minutes and a DNP against Lville. He beat them single- handedly the very next season.

I like the overall point (Boeheim makes some seemingly low-ceiling personnel decisions that I don't always agree with), but we had three pretty good guards in 2012 and Mike had had his chance to demonstrate his readiness and, in the eyes of many, failed.

I firmly believe that he made his bed with the meltdown at home against Connecticut (three consecutive blown transition defense opportunities, then needing to be restrained from going after Boeheim when he called timeout to berate him).

Lack of defense and public insubordination? I'm not always on the same page as Boeheim but guess that we can all agree that those aren't characteristics that merit more playing time.

 

[jordoo]

For a guy with stats in his handle you seem to be overlooking that all the available stats (mostly OOC games) pointed to MCW not being nearly as productive as the other 3 guards playing in front of him. We know that he had much less experience than the other 3 guards, that is a fact. He wasn't Carmelo showing up with a college ready body and NBA ready offensive game. Even when MCW played as a sophomore his game had major holes in it. Dion, Scoop and Brandon were all better shooters in college than MCW was and that is a stat that I'm sure you can look up quite easily although I only need my old noggin and own eyes to know that.

Perhaps had we played MCW 25min a game he would have been much better by seasons end but even with all his minutes as a sophomore the other three guys were still better shooters and none were deficient enough on defense to make MCW a radically better option for playing time that season. Still lets put all that aside and say you are right and MCW played instead of Brandon that season we still likely lose to OSU because it was the loss of Fab Melo that cost us that game and replacing one very good guard with another would still mean we had three very good guards to play in that game either way. In other words it changes very little even and if anything it makes us a less dangerous perimeter team even using MCW soph shooting numbers.

Look I get that you would prefer lengthening the bench, playing more guys and getting the younger guys experience regardless of weather it costs us some early games. I don't necessarily agree but I do understand that POV and see the validity of it in certain situations. The thing is you are picking the worst example to make your point because if anything it buoys the other side of that argument that you get the most out of your experienced ready talent and let the understudy improve in practice which is exactly what happened that season and the guard position had nothing to do with why we lost to OSU. We had a wildly successful season with MCW sitting on the bench for most of it.

 

[moqui]

Some of the leaps in logic made on this message board are amongst the most astonishingly fantastic things I have ever read.

yeah . . . my personal favorite was the unsupported assertion that the only variable that factored into Brandon Triche's playing time was "blind loyalty"

 

[jordoo]

yeah . . . my personal favorite was the unsupported assertion that the only variable that factored into Brandon Triche's playing time was "blind loyalty"

121-26 maybe we need some more "blind loyalty"

In all seriousness though it seems when certain good to very good players show they have some limitations that a large part of the fan base is ready to throw them under the buss and move on to the next guy. Its college basketball and its very rare to see complete players or even elite talent that is well rounded and developed.

 

[SoBristol]

At the end of the season nobody is going to say "well thank god we played Cooney 36 minutes and preserved that extra win against Hampton." But if Cooney gets hurt or for some reason becomes ineligible people will absolutely say "why did Patterson only play 4 minutes against Hampton and DNP against every ACC team?"

JB coaches to win every single game, which I am arguing is short sighted -- I'd rather see him coach to make the team as deep and robust as possible going into March.

I expect JB would reply that Patterson and Chino need to work to get better, in practice, 20 hours each week, and that another 4 minutes of game time every week won't change their development all that much. He might be right.
My concern is that we have seen Cooney and to a lesser extent Ennis get worn down by playing big minutes each game through the ACC schedule. That pace for key starters is OK in November -- December, when there are a lot of home games, and a long break in mid-December. The schedule in January - February is more taxing. If we are down to having the starting guards play every minute of the second half of nearly every ACC game, well, we have seen that movie.

 

[Cuse'91]

There's a certain arrogance that comes with being the 2nd winningest coach in major college basketball history, and rightly so... But, Boeheim stance has always been teenage kids are not going to wear down; in games or during the season, not with all the tv timeouts and what not. I just do not agree; you need to rotate more than 6 or 7 players these days, regardless if you play a zone D or not... There is a world of difference when you bring in a fresh player back into a game after a rest, both physically and mentally... That's not even bringing up the late season injury factor, which I have adamantly voiced my opinion on...
Boeheim usually puts his team, his starters, his bench, his rotation in CONCRETE before the season even begins, and that's it, finito, the end...

 

[moqui]

Boeheim stance has always been teenage kids are not going to wear down; in games or during the season, not with all the tv timeouts and what not.

he's not the only one, though. Coach K, for example, plays tight 7 man rotations even when he has 9 or 10 high school all americans on his roster. These two are about to become the only men with 1000 career wins. They believe that you can effectively manage minutes with a tight roster, and the weight of evidence seems to be heavily on their side.

You object that they should hedge against late season injuries, but how often does that happen? You want to trade seed lines and the favorable draws they impart each and every year to hedge against the 2 times in 37 years that we've lost someone on the eve of the tournament?

 

[Cuse'91]

he's not the only one, though. Coach K, for example, plays tight 7 man rotations even when he has 9 or 10 high school all americans on his roster. These two are about to become the only men with 1000 career wins. They believe that you can effectively manage minutes with a tight roster, and the weight of evidence seems to be heavily on their side.

You object that they should hedge against late season injuries, but how often does that happen? You want to trade seed lines and the favorable draws they impart each and every year to hedge against the 2 times in 37 years that we've lost someone on the eve of the tournament?

I object because I'm sick seeing Cooney doing a cardio workout out on the court when Buss, G, and BJ could be fresh off the bench. Being a Syracuse fan, how can you say late season/eve of tournament injuries and SUSPENSIONS should not be hedged...

 

[moqui]

Being a Syracuse fan, how can you say late season/eve of tournament injuries and SUSPENSIONS should not be hedged...

because its a low percentage play with a negative payoff most of the time

basketball is a simple game at both the micro and macro levels. you take the higher percentage shots and you're going to be successful

 

[jordoo]

Its an old argument but in general the numbers and stats favor a majority of the minutes going to a tight 7 man rotation in college bball when it comes to winning. Yes there are outliers and a lot of those teams have a .5 guy but championship teams very rarely go past 8 meaningful players in college. Something over looked is that playing the deeper bench more to get them experience is actually detrimental to the chemistry of the top 7/8 guys in you rotation as well limiting their own minutes when they themselves are still young developing players. In other words the core of the team is not as good as they could have been or as familiar with each other as they could have been. The 8-10 guy is not going to make up for losing one of your top 3 players. You are screwed either way. Losing a 4-7 player you may be able to get by with an 8-10 guy but its still a step back no matter how much they have played because there is a reason they are a deep bench player.

 

[Cuse'91]

because its a low percentage play with a negative payoff most of the time

basketball is a simple game at both the micro and macro levels. you take the higher percentage shots and you're going to be successful

Ok, how about lets say, you have your 2 starting guards get in foul trouble or foul out of, I don't know lets say a National Semi Final, and your young 3rd guard comes into the game tighter than a felon during his first prison shower? Would've been nice to develop him throughout the year, no?

 

[Cuse'91]

Its an old argument but in general the numbers and stats favor a majority of the minutes going to a tight 7 man rotation in college bball when it comes to winning. Yes there are outliers and a lot of those teams have a .5 guy but championship teams very rarely go past 8 meaningful players in college. Something over looked is that playing the deeper bench more to get them experience is actually detrimental to the chemistry of the top 7/8 guys in you rotation as well limiting their own minutes when they themselves are still young developing players. In other words the core of the team is not as good as they could have been or as familiar with each other as they could have been. The 8-10 guy is not going to make up for losing one of your top 3 players. You are screwed either way. Losing a 4-7 player you may be able to get by with an 8-10 guy but its still a step back no matter how much they have played because there is a reason they are a deep bench player.

I agree, 8 players is more than enough, even a tight 7 player rotation. But not 6 or 5 players for every minute except for garbage time...

 

[jordoo]

I agree, 8 players is more than enough, even a tight 7 player rotation. But not 6 or 5 players for every minute except for garbage time...

Look I'd prefer more guys getting developmental minutes as well but my point is that statistically its diminishing returns if you look at the rotations of the best teams year in and year out. I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice but I am saying that 9 times out of 1o the minutes used on the 8-10 guys are meaningless in the outcome of that season.

 

[Cuse'91]

Look I'd prefer more guys getting developmental minutes as well but my point is that statistically its diminishing returns if you look at the rotations of the best teams year in and year out. I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice but I am saying that 9 times out of 1o the minutes used on the 8-10 guys are meaningless in the outcome of that season.

Fair enough. But last year was tough to watch disintegrate before our eyes... And no one can convince me that Buss, whatever he contributes this season, could not have been doing that for us last year as well... He walked onto campus with an NBA body.

 

[jordoo]

Fair enough. But last year was tough to watch disintegrate before our eyes... And no one can convince me that Buss, whatever he contributes this season, could not have been doing that for us last year as well... He walked onto campus with an NBA body.

Statistically does not mean every situation and I certainly would not be one to say that we haven't had seasons where certain players who were rarely if ever used would have helped us had they played more in the stead of other players. This is almost impossible to prove statistically because generally little used players don't put up good numbers in small sample sizes as basketball is a game of rhythm and flow for most players. Still its a valid argument and I myself have wished that JB would play some player more at times. Again though this is an outsider looking in who doesn't have the same information and access as the coaches so I am careful to really criticize it although I have questioned and wondered.

 

[moqui]

And no one can convince me that Buss, whatever he contributes this season, could not have been doing that for us last year as well... He walked onto campus with an NBA body.

and Mid America Conference skills, which given his advanced age is probably his ceiling

#practiceplayer

 

[Cuse'91]

and Mid America Conference skills, which given his advanced age is probably his ceiling

#practiceplayer

Yeah, MAC or Atlantic 10 players are worthless...

 

[moqui]

Yeah, MAC or Atlantic 10 players are worthless...

didn't say that nor did I imply it . . . just noting that there is an apparent skills deficit between him and the guys ahead of him

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Ok, how about lets say, you have your 2 starting guards get in foul trouble or foul out of, I don't know lets say a National Semi Final, and your young 3rd guard comes into the game tighter than a felon during his first prison shower? Would've been nice to develop him throughout the year, no?

Of course, if you played more players during the year, you might have more losses, get a worse draw, and not make the final four at all.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

In all seriousness though it seems when certain good to very good players show they have some limitations that a large part of the fan base is ready to throw them under the buss and move on to the next guy.

Pun intended?

 

[jordoo]

Pun intended?

actually no, just a phrase I often use.

 

[AZOrange]

Fair enough. But last year was tough to watch disintegrate before our eyes... And no one can convince me that Buss, whatever he contributes this season, could not have been doing that for us last year as well... He walked onto campus with an NBA body.

Nba body? Come on now. Advanced for NCAA maybe (he should be at his age) but nba? Btw jb himself noted he wasn't in shape

 

[Cuse'91]

Of course, if you played more players during the year, you might have more losses, get a worse draw, and not make the final four at all.

Yeah, teams that play more than their top 6 players never make it to the Final Four...

 

[Dave85]

At the end of last season when the starters were banged up I was wishing JB gave more PT to the bench. I would like to see RP get just as much PT as TC. TC has not exactly been lighting things up. And as I've previously posted, TC coming off the bench nice and fresh might increase his shooting percentage. Splitting time with RP might be a good thing. I really don't like it when JB says the only way players are going to get PT is by doing well in practice.

 

[GonzoInMD]

At the end of last season when the starters were banged up I was wishing JB gave more PT to the bench. I would like to see RP get just as much PT as TC. TC has not exactly been lighting things up. And as I've previously posted, TC coming off the bench nice and fresh might increase his shooting percentage. Splitting time with RP might be a good thing. I really don't like it when JB says the only way players are going to get PT is by doing well in practice.

I don't think that JB wants to have two inexperienced players out there at the guard positions...he's already got that a lot at the forwards.