Can anybody please tell me why college basketball still has the possession arrow

[Alsacs]

I just don't get why with all the reviews these refs seem to do each game. The refs can't just throw the ball up between the 2 players involved in a jump ball scenario. Honestly, what is the reason college basketball administrators can't get together and still letting a possession arrow determine who gets the ball on a tie up. I mean before 1987 their wasn't a 3-point line and all games have been different since. The shot clock was 45 seconds till 1991 and it has been changed to 35 seconds. If the answer is nobody has brought it up shame on the status quo. I think eventually the NCAA will change the game to 4 10 minute quarters a la FIBA and possession arrow will go away. I expect Marsh01 will know why college basketball still has the arrow as he knows a lot.

 

[Marsh01]

I just don't get why with all the reviews these refs seem to do each game. The refs can't just throw the ball up between the 2 players involved in a jump ball scenario. Honestly, what is the reason college basketball administrators can't get together and still letting a possession arrow determine who gets the ball on a tie up. I mean before 1987 their wasn't a 3-point line and all games have been different since. The shot clock was 45 seconds till 1991 and it has been changed to 35 seconds. If the answer is nobody has brought it up shame on the status quo. I think eventually the NCAA will change the game to 4 10 minute quarters a la FIBA and possession arrow will go away. I expect Marsh01 will know why college basketball still has the arrow as he knows a lot.

Because noone has championed the effort to remove it (aside from Dicky V who calls it out every game). I hate it but it does save time and there are so many jump balls during a game that its easier to award a possession.

What I would like to see done is in the final 5 minutes have a tie up go to a jump ball. That would certainly make it fair especially when you have a situation where a team forces a tie up in the final minute down 2 and they dont have the arrow in their favor.

If I remember correctly one of the reason why it was removed is because of the inconsistencies of the actual toss.

 

[MikeSU02]

I just don't get why with all the reviews these refs seem to do each game. The refs can't just throw the ball up between the 2 players involved in a jump ball scenario. Honestly, what is the reason college basketball administrators can't get together and still letting a possession arrow determine who gets the ball on a tie up. I mean before 1987 their wasn't a 3-point line and all games have been different since. The shot clock was 45 seconds till 1991 and it has been changed to 35 seconds. If the answer is nobody has brought it up shame on the status quo. I think eventually the NCAA will change the game to 4 10 minute quarters a la FIBA and possession arrow will go away. I expect Marsh01 will know why college basketball still has the arrow as he knows a lot.

It will probably have to play a part in the last minute of a Final Four game to get it changed. This is such a no-brainer that it's comical the NCAA hasn't adopted the NBA rule here.

 

[djdan]

Just to play devil's advocate, why is a jump ball more fair? If Ennis ties up the other team's center, you know he's going to lose the jump ball. With the arrow, at least you're guaranteed possession half the time.

 

[Marsh01]

Just to play devil's advocate, why is a jump ball more fair? If Ennis ties up the other team's center, you know he's going to lose the jump ball. With the arrow, at least you're guaranteed possession half the time.

Because at least you have a chance at it as opposed to being on the short end of the stick. Could be a bad tap, etc. Also it gives players a chance to get position and force the guy who is jumping to make a good tap to someone.

The rule stinks and should be changed and I cant believe its 2014 and we are still using the arrow.

 

[AZOrange]

Because noone has championed the effort to remove it (aside from Dicky V who calls it out every game). I hate it but it does save time and there are so many jump balls during a game that its easier to award a possession. What I would like to see done is in the final 5 minutes have a tie up go to a jump ball. That would certainly make it fair especially when you have a situation where a team forces a tie up in the final minute down 2 and they dont have the arrow in their favor. If I remember correctly one of the reason why it was removed is because of the inconsistencies of the actual toss.

Exactly. It all evens out over the course of the game.

 

[AZOrange]

Because at least you have a chance at it as opposed to being on the short end of the stick. Could be a bad tap, etc. Also it gives players a chance to get position and force the guy who is jumping to make a good tap to someone. The rule stinks and should be changed and I cant believe its 2014 and we are still using the arrow.

Not only are they using it but the NCAA doesn't even really make it a topic with coaches. It used to be but they were so indifferent they dropped it.

 

[Alsacs]

I like the final 5 minutes/OT no possession arrow idea. I just hate the fact that tie-ups don't reward the defense unless they have the possession arrow on their side. I don't care if Ennis had to do a jump-ball with the opposing team's center throw the ball up its the fair thing to do. I wish somebody would ask JB this question at his next coaches show and I would love to hear his answer.

 

[Cowtown]

There are a few reasons for the possession arrow. First, it saves time. Believe it. Second, it's predictable, and coaches like that. Believe that, too. Third, it eliminates the scrambles - and the potential stupid fouls - that often occur right off the tip. It also eliminates the over-and-back nightmares that occur when the jump is held at center. And it eliminates other violations (moving in, on, off or around the circle before the ball is tipped, ball tipped before it reaches its peak, etc.). All you have to do is write a rules exam once to see how many strange things can happen with jump balls. And finally, since not many refs can consistently toss the ball straight up, it eliminates the re-jump after a bad toss. And you better believe that!

I've reffed with Federation, NCAA and FIBA rules, and it makes for a much cleaner game.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

There are a few reasons for the possession arrow. First, it saves time. Believe it. Second, it's predictable, and coaches like that. Believe that, too. Third, it eliminates the scrambles - and the potential stupid fouls - that often occur right off the tip. It also eliminates the over-and-back nightmares that occur when the jump is held at center. And it eliminates other violations (moving in, on, off or around the circle before the ball is tipped, ball tipped before it reaches its peak, etc.). All you have to do is write a rules exam once to see how many strange things can happen with jump balls. And finally, since not many refs can consistently toss the ball straight up, it eliminates the re-jump after a bad toss. And you better believe that!

I've reffed with Federation, NCAA and FIBA rules, and it makes for a much cleaner game.

I remember it having to do with too much contact as well when they got it out - like you are saying, so many opportunities for fouls, elbows, etc.

 

[Cowtown]

Because noone has championed the effort to remove it (aside from Dicky V who calls it out every game). I hate it but it does save time and there are so many jump balls during a game that its easier to award a possession.

What I would like to see done is in the final 5 minutes have a tie up go to a jump ball. That would certainly make it fair especially when you have a situation where a team forces a tie up in the final minute down 2 and they dont have the arrow in their favor.

If I remember correctly one of the reason why it was removed is because of the inconsistencies of the actual toss.

I was gonna *like* this because "two out of three ain't bad." The last 5 minutes proposal is not a good one. There are too many "special situations" already. They cause arguments and T's because most coaches don't know about the rules as it is. Most announcers know even less.

And for Vitale, it's his signature strawman: "I stand for this!"

 

[Alsacs]

I just don't think the time being saved argument is that strong. A jump ball would add another minute or 2 to the game. With all these reviews games are taking longer as is. If player safety is the argument I can understand, but then the NBA will be liable for damage that occurs during a jump ball and I don't think their is that much damage. If the refs can't throw a ball straight up then send them to Tim Higgins school of how to be a bad ref and throw the ball straight up. I just think eliminating the possession arrow is the right thing to do its 2014 and its time for change an outdated rule IMO.

 

[Cowtown]

I think eventually the NCAA will change the game to 4 10 minute quarters a la FIBA and possession arrow will go away.

FIBA uses the arrow for simplicity, and they have to think that way with rules. Consider a major tournament, with 3 refs (none who have worked together before), two teams and a scorer's table you can have 6 different languages all in play.

 

[Cowtown]

I just don't think the time being saved argument is that strong. A jump ball would add another minute or 2 to the game. With all these reviews games are taking longer as is. If player safety is the argument I can understand, but then the NBA will be liable for damage that occurs during a jump ball and I don't think their is that much damage. If the refs can't throw a ball straight up then send them to Tim Higgins school of how to be a bad ref and throw the ball straight up. I just think eliminating the possession arrow is the right thing to do its 2014 and its time for change an outdated rule IMO.

A very important aspect of this rule is that "it's predictable and coaches like that." Remember, coaches make a living doing this, and if that's you, eliminating variables is important. Ask yourself, why isn't there a major movement among coaches to change the rule? Because none of them want it changed. Nor will you find a single referee on the face of the planet who wants it changed either.

 

[Alsacs]

FIBA uses the arrow for simplicity, and they have to think that way with rules. Consider a major tournament, with 3 refs (none who have worked together before), two teams and a scorer's table you can have 6 different languages all in play.

I was talking about the 4 10 minute quarters rule when I meant FIBA. I just don't think the arrow rewards the defender for making a play on the ball. I understand the arrow balances things out, but fairness of possession isn't fair if the defender causes the tie-up in a critical situation, but fairness says the team with the arrow gets possession. The only time I can remember the arrow affecting a national championship was in 1998 at the Final Four when Stanford was trailing Kentucky and caused a tie-up, but the possession arrow gave the ball back to Kentucky and they won by 3 pts in OT when Stanford could have won the game if the arrow didn't give the ball back to Kentucky when the Stanford defender made a great defensive play.

 

[Alsacs]

A very important aspect of this rule is that "it's predictable and coaches like that." Remember, coaches make a living doing this, and if that's you, eliminating variables is important. Ask yourself, why isn't there a major movement among coaches to change the rule? Because none of them want it changed.

I would love for a college basketball reporter, Andy Katz, Jeff Goodman, Gary Parrish, Seth Davis, to actually conduct a poll on this if the coaches liked it I would say okay I am wrong, but I don't know if that has happened recently and would love to hear Jim Boeheim's take.

 

[Cowtown]

I was talking about the 4 10 minute quarters rule when I meant FIBA. I just don't think the arrow rewards the defender for making a play on the ball. I understand the arrow balances things out, but fairness of possession isn't fair if the defender causes the tie-up in a critical situation, but fairness says the team with the arrow gets possession. The only time I can remember the arrow affecting a national championship was in 1998 at the Final Four when Stanford was trailing Kentucky and caused a tie-up, but the possession arrow gave the ball back to Kentucky and they won by 3 pts in OT when Stanford could have won the game if the arrow didn't give the ball back to Kentucky when the Stanford defender made a great defensive play.

My response to that is what I've told kids at clinics: "If you don't want to get beat by a last second call, or a shot at the buzzer, play better sooner in the game." Besides, a study was done prior to changing the rule to the arrow and it was determined that possession coming out of the jump was about a 50-50 split anyway.

 

[kuethstheman]

My recollection is that one big reason they went away from the jump ball is that refs couldn't toss it reliably. I think the NCAA still sees it as an improvement and considers the jump ball obsolete instead of the other way around.

I've always thought that held balls should be awarded to the defensive team. It would reward the defensive effort while still eliminating most of the problems with the jump. I realize there are times when there isn't exactly a "defensive" team. If they couldn't come up with a procedural rule to cover those, they could alternate in those few cases.

 

[kuethstheman]

Also, you could eliminate most held balls by calling the fouls that occur. If it wasn't fair game to dive on someone's back just because there was a loose ball, you wouldn't have nearly so many tie-ups.

 

[tbonezone]

actually the defense is rewarded. you get the arrow next time. simple really.

now can somebody please explain why they still use the chains in football ? GPS it baby. 100% more accurate.
and 1000 times faster. this seems like a no brainer to anyone but the chain guys union.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

While we're at it, let's drop the shot clock to 30 seconds.

 

[Alsacs]

actually the defense is rewarded. you get the arrow next time. simple really.

now can somebody please explain why they still use the chains in football ? GPS baby. 100% more accurate.

When the NFL uses GPS you can make that comment. The NBA doesn't use the arrow, the NCAA/FIBA do. My point was why does the NBA not use it, but NCAA basketball does I thank you for taking it beyond the reasonable though because my point is that dumb that it needed that comment.

 

[Alsacs]

While we're at it, let's drop the shot clock to 30 seconds.

I don't think this is a bad suggestion at all. No change happens unless people actually talk and get the ball rolling. 30 seconds is what women's college basketball uses.

 

[tbonezone]

so supposing one team wins every single jump ball. that's fair? good defense was rewarded ? saved time?

 

[jgeorge322]

i like the possession arrow. maybe the defender made a good play but the offensive player made equally good play to negate a teammates pass. also, why should the taller player who can jump higher get rewarded by jumping it? why should those qualities decide who gets possession?

assuming the defense gets the ball everytime, then who gets the ball under this scenario: the defender steals the ball changing possession for a second and then gets tied up. should the team who just stole the ball give up possession? where do you draw the line.