Can Brandon play himself into the draft ?

[RF2044]

He did well against Wisconsin -- maybe an above average effort, getting to the basket 2 or 3 times.
Do you agree that Flynn, Defendorf, Scoop and Dion were each more effective at dribble-driving into the lane, compared to BT? Look around the league -- BT is not among the quicker guards.
He is valuable part of our team (steady, smart, strong, works on defense, finishes well when set up on a break), but if he could slash (dribble drive) he would be averaging more than 10 points a game.

Even though I attended that game live and saw it with my own eyes, I'm still a little surprised by how easily we attacked the basket against a strong defensive Wisconsin team. Our guards took them to the hole indiscriminantly--all three of them.

 

[reedny]

He did well against Wisconsin -- maybe an above average effort, getting to the basket 2 or 3 times.
Do you agree that Flynn, Defendorf, Scoop and Dion were each more effective at dribble-driving into the lane, compared to BT? Look around the league -- BT is not among the quicker guards.
He is valuable part of our team (steady, smart, strong, works on defense, finishes well when set up on a break), but if he could slash (dribble drive) he would be averaging more than 10 points a game.

Does Brandon have the quickness of a 5'10 165 lb. PG, probably not. But he does play SG, and despite all the naysayers, by my eye he's an effective slasher ... Why? I'd say mostly his strength, a good first step, decent (not elite) speed. As far as the comparisons you offer, I'd say he's as good at penetrating as Scoop or Devendorf, but hasn't (yet) shown a consistent ability to make plays like Scoop or finish (high off the glass) like Devo. And no question, Brandon doesn't have the explosion of our lottery guards. But he's stronger than all of them, along with most of the defenders he faces and once he gets a step he's very hard to contain.

The question is .. what happens when he gets into the lane... this is where he's had the decision-making/finishing problems that are a valid criticism.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

He did well against Wisconsin -- maybe an above average effort, getting to the basket 2 or 3 times.
Do you agree that Flynn, Defendorf, Scoop and Dion were each more effective at dribble-driving into the lane, compared to BT? Look around the league -- BT is not among the quicker guards.
He is valuable part of our team (steady, smart, strong, works on defense, finishes well when set up on a break), but if he could slash (dribble drive) he would be averaging more than 10 points a game.

I agree that Flynn could break down his man at will and get by him. He often ran into trouble with the trees in the lane however. Devo was great at it but he also ran into the same problems and sometimes was out of control - but seemed to grow out of that his last year. Scoop was very effective at finishing but I wouldn't say he always could break down the guy on him. He relied on the screen primarily, even though he mostly ignored the screen to get to the hoop. And there is absolutely no reason to doubt Brandon couldn't do that.

I also love the way you downplay his effort in the Wisconsin game by showing the low numbers. Those 2 or 3 times were from 7 total shot attempts, two of which were from behind the three. I'll take that ratio of 3 out of 5 penetrating and finishing every day of the week next year.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Does Brandon have the quickness of a 5'10 165 lb. PG, probably not. But he does play SG, and despite all the naysayers, by my eye he's an effective slasher ... Why? I'd say mostly his strength, a good first step, decent (not elite) speed. As far as the comparisons you offer, I'd say he's as good at penetrating as Scoop or Devendorf, but hasn't (yet) shown a consistent ability to make plays like Scoop or finish (high off the glass) like Devo. And no question, Brandon doesn't have the explosion of our lottery guards. But he's stronger than all of them, along with most of the defenders he faces and once he gets a step he's very hard to contain.

Exactly right. And if any team dared put a 5' 10" guy on BT, just move him to the post and take that guy all day long until he fouls out or they switch that matchup. BT can be very effective at that. Just need to get him some space (move our bigs away) and the ball and he can do the rest.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

Ok, I got it.

There's no question he'll play more minutes and shoot more, I was just saying that on a per minute or per possession basis, I don't think the increase will be all that much. Which I think is a good thing; I don't think he will be asked to play a much larger role in the offense, he'll just be asked to play more minutes. Adding minutes is a lot easier than adding more possessions in those minutes.

I disagree with the bolded part. I think Brandon will have a much bigger role this coming year. I think Brandon will be the senior leader. I think you will see the aggressive defense trickle down from him much as we saw from Andy in years past. I think the ball will be in BT's hands a lot more. And as an aside, I also think he will get a lot more calls this year - I thought he, more than anyone, would get hacked and not get a call.

I think in end of half, end of game situations, BT will be the primary call. I think he will pass it more than Dion did, but I think for the most part the play will call for the ball to run through BT.

I am of the believe that BT is of the traditional variety of player. A player that comes through the system accepting more responsibility each year. In years past he deferred to others, which was the role he envisioned. This coming year he does not defer, it is his turn.

It's interesting to see that some view BTs deferring as a weakness that he can't overcome. I view it as a positive trait of showing patience and waiting for your time. It is now his time.

 

[SoBristol]

I agree that Flynn could break down his man at will and get by him. He often ran into trouble with the trees in the lane however. Devo was great at it but he also ran into the same problems and sometimes was out of control - but seemed to grow out of that his last year. Scoop was very effective at finishing but I wouldn't say he always could break down the guy on him. He relied on the screen primarily, even though he mostly ignored the screen to get to the hoop. And there is absolutely no reason to doubt Brandon couldn't do that.

I also love the way you downplay his effort in the Wisconsin game by showing the low numbers. Those 2 or 3 times were from 7 total shot attempts, two of which were from behind the three. I'll take that ratio of 3 out of 5 penetrating and finishing every day of the week next year.

Yes, Scoop relied on the high pick, and either worked off it, or ignored the screen to penetrate on his own, and did that regularly as part of the base offense. Is there reason to doubt whether BT can do the same? Well, he has played for SU for 3 years and . . . . Do you think he can do it as well as Scoop but has decided to save it for next season?
As for downplaying BT's Wisconsin efforts -- he did fine against a tough defense. My observation would be that BT can get past a defender on occasion, but guys like Peyton Siva do it regularly.

 

[Ghost]

A couple things, there is no way he penetrates as effectively as Devo did. Not even close.

Wisconson couldn't stop any of our guards - not even the walk-ons probably.

The kid has a lot of game, but he's not a great penetrator/slasher. He can get an angle on a straight line drive and use his size to lean in and get the shot off, but otherwise, he's not blowing by anyone. Which is fine, he's got a nice size advantage, and he's a got a good pull-up in the lane when he featurs it. It seemed like when he did try slashing you would see him get cut-off, try a behind the back, or some change of direction move, and lose the ball all too often.

 

[SoBristol]

Exactly right. And if any team dared put a 5' 10" guy on BT, just move him to the post and take that guy all day long until he fouls out or they switch that matchup. BT can be very effective at that. Just need to get him some space (move our bigs away) and the ball and he can do the rest.

Again, I see BT as an effective team player and a valuable component. But there are reasons why he averages only 10 points a game as a starter. You have to be more objective about his skill set. When has he posted up a defender more than 1 time in any game? Are you really going to give him the ball with 10 seconds left on a shot clock and ask him to dribble drive?

 

[CuseFaninVT]

A couple things, there is no way he penetrates as effectively as Devo did. Not even close.

Wisconson couldn't stop any of our guards - not even the walk-ons probably.

The kid has a lot of game, but he's not a great penetrator/slasher. He can get an angle on a straight line drive and use his size to lean in and get the shot off, but otherwise, he's not blowing by anyone. Which is fine, he's got a nice size advantage, and he's a got a good pull-up in the lane when he featurs it. It seemed like when he did try slashing you would see him get cut-off, try a behind the back, or some change of direction move, and lose the ball all too often.

I really don't know where this is coming from. He had 1.4 turnovers per game. Seems like if this was a regular thing for him, you'd see much higher numbers. Something on the order of 2.3. Oh wait, those were Scoop's numbers. Maybe you were thinking about him.

And while I was a big fan of Brandon Reese, he wasn't going to get by the Wisconsin guards. But I appreciate the hyperbole.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Again, I see BT as an effective team player and a valuable component. But there are reasons why he averages only 10 points a game as a starter. You have to be more objective about his skill set. When has he posted up a defender more than 1 time in any game? Are you really going to give him the ball with 10 seconds left on a shot clock and ask him to dribble drive?

Whereas you see his efforts as limited, I think he was just playing within the system. He wasn't asked to be the guy with 10 seconds left, so I'd say its impossible to judge how he would act in those circumstances. I think if JB puts his faith in him then we will know that BT has the stuff. Then again, JB put his faith in Scoop and that didn't always work out.

I'm a big fan of Triche as is obvious, but I also have been frustrated by his efforts over the years. I think he has some pure physical abilities that Scoop didn't possess and if he can learn to use those consistently I think he will have a great senior season.

 

[Ghost]

I really don't know where this is coming from. He had 1.4 turnovers per game. Seems like if this was a regular thing for him, you'd see much higher numbers. Something on the order of 2.3. Oh wait, those were Scoop's numbers. Maybe you were thinking about him.

And while I was a big fan of Brandon Reese, he wasn't going to get by the Wisconsin guards. But I appreciate the hyperbole.

1. He wasn't the PG, so he shouldn't have a high TO number.
2. He didn't drive to the rim a ton to begin with.
3. I was just making the same point as RF, our guards were all driving at will against Wiscy. They weren't all that quick.

My reference to the turnovers were that when he does to try to get creative with the ball going to the rim he seemed to turn it over or get hung up a lot. If he was doing it 48 times a game he obviously wouldn't be playing at all, "all too often" was meant relative to slasher type guards.

 

[Melancer46]

Can he? Yes.
Will he? Most likely not, and I'm a big fan of his too.

 

[orangefan13]

Triche doesn't break his defender down nor put his body into them when driving one on one.
He gets a step ahead of them and invites the contact well. The problem is getting into position to do so. If he ever did at will he could go crazy from midrange.

I hope he works on playing point guard over the summer though. It will A) push him to break his man down more one on one, B) push his defensive matching up on driving guards, and C) add more speed to help him pull up for a leaning jumper in the lane.

 

[billsin01]

I'm going to try and not be a jerk here, but have you watched JB and the way he coaches over the years? Triche is going to lose minutes to a guy who was so good that JB redshirted him last year? Right. That will happen.

Triche lost minutes to Dion and Scoop. One guy had been here 5 years and one is going in the first round. That is not similar to anything on this years team. Except maybe Triche could be the one more similar to Scoop, and with a better looking shot. And maybe MCW can work his way up to being in the league, but he's young and hasn't felt the brunt of a full BE season yet.

Whether or not BT gets drafted is becoming the least important part of this thread. What is truly fascinating is how so many of us who invest far too much time in this team sees how he plays. Someone mentioned that Triche doesn't come off screens like GMac and Rautins. I disagree. He did that a ton last year. While his three point shot wasn't as good as those two, he also does have the ability to dribble drive (not like Devo but few did) and take it to the rim and he's much stronger than either of those guys were when he gets there so he's less likely to break down and he can finish above the rim, which none of those guys really did.

I never said "Triche will lose minutes to Cooney." I only made the point that if I had to bet on one of two scenarios -- triche having a breakout year and working his way into the draft vs. Triche getting an increase in minutes but being closer to 28 than 32 or 33 b/c either Cooney develops and emerges as a legit option and/or Southerland has a consistent year and plays a bit out of position at the 2, I would go with the latter.

My guess is that Triche will actually eclipse the 30 mpg mark and be a solid starter but not play his way into the draft. That is obviously in the middle of those two scenarios.

As for triche finishing above the rim vs. GMac and Rautins, that's true but I wouldn't call him a great finisher or even particularly good at getting into the lane with any sort of control.

Other points I disagree on:

-- Cooney was redshirted simply b/c he was the fifth guard -- not because he didn't have talent. I not going to argue that Cooney will eclipse Triche per se, but I think it's crazy to think he doesn't have a good chance to play his way into legit minutes with a year under his belt and obviously decent talent.

-- Since when have sophomores been considered 'young' in college basketball? MCW logged nearly 270 minutes last year and even true frosh have played huge minutes under boeheim all the time. Will he hold up to the rigors of the BE? I really don't see why not.

-- Triche is not "Scoop with a better looking shot." Scoop took a lot of junk here but he had a solid handle, generally made good decisions with the ball, actually shot 3% better from three than Triche and excelled in the open floor. That is not triche.

I agree that Triche is a nice player but, my opinion anway, is that we've seen what he is. A nice player with nice athleticism but not necessarily a guy who's a lock to see 35 mpg and score 15ish a game. I just don't see that.

 

[moqui]

Can he? sure. Will he? hmmmm. . . .

 

[CuseFaninVT]

I never said "Triche will lose minutes to Cooney." I only made the point that if I had to bet on one of two scenarios -- triche having a breakout year and working his way into the draft vs. Triche getting an increase in minutes but being closer to 28 than 32 or 33 b/c either Cooney develops and emerges as a legit option and/or Southerland has a consistent year and plays a bit out of position at the 2, I would go with the latter.

My guess is that Triche will actually eclipse the 30 mpg mark and be a solid starter but not play his way into the draft. That is obviously in the middle of those two scenarios.

As for triche finishing above the rim vs. GMac and Rautins, that's true but I wouldn't call him a great finisher or even particularly good at getting into the lane with any sort of control.

Other points I disagree on:

-- Cooney was redshirted simply b/c he was the fifth guard -- not because he didn't have talent. I not going to argue that Cooney will eclipse Triche per se, but I think it's crazy to think he doesn't have a good chance to play his way into legit minutes with a year under his belt and obviously decent talent.

-- Since when have sophomores been considered 'young' in college basketball? MCW logged nearly 270 minutes last year and even true frosh have played huge minutes under boeheim all the time. Will he hold up to the rigors of the BE? I really don't see why not.

-- Triche is not "Scoop with a better looking shot." Scoop took a lot of junk here but he had a solid handle, generally made good decisions with the ball, actually shot 3% better from three than Triche and excelled in the open floor. That is not triche.

I agree that Triche is a nice player but, my opinion anway, is that we've seen what he is. A nice player with nice athleticism but not necessarily a guy who's a lock to see 35 mpg and score 15ish a game. I just don't see that.

No, what you said, exactly is this "The not-so-nice, but I think still relatively true answer is this: He's more likely to lose minutes to some combination of Cooney and potentially JS than he is to have a monster breakout season that either lands him in the draft or puts him in the same class as DNic." That's not close to what you are saying now. Probably because you realized that what you said in the first place is assinine.

I'm not going to get into a back and forth here, but I tend to disagree with most of your points, especially about Scoop. Scoop was a trainwreck waiting to happen. He had some great moments, but he was easily the most frustrating player I've watched on the SU team in a long time.

As for MCW and your assertion that 270 minutes should mean he will be fine. The bulk of those came in the OOC schedule. The most minutes he tallied in a BE game was 17. He did that three times - against Depaul, St. Johns and Providence. Not exactly the beasts of our schedule. I think he will do great, but I do worry about the possibility of him jumping in to 30 minutes a game with his slight frame.

 

[SoBristol]

I'm not going to get into a back and forth here, but I tend to disagree with most of your points, especially about Scoop. Scoop was a trainwreck waiting to happen. He had some great moments, but he was easily the most frustrating player I've watched on the SU team in a long time.

...

Always wonder why people persist in this opinion about Scoop -- after he led the team to one of its best seasons, was close to the top of the league in assists two years in a row, and earned accolades from JB.

Same people who couldn't understand why Scoop & Dion were on the floor to close out tight games?

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Always wonder why people persist in this opinion about Scoop -- after he led the team to one of its best seasons, was close to the top of the league in assists two years in a row, and earned accolades from JB.

Same people who couldn't understand why Scoop & Dion were on the floor to close out tight games?

So you always felt comfortable with him handling the ball? I know he was fairly solid out there, but his defense frequently killed us and he had a tendency to hold the ball too much. And he would drive into the lane without there being an opening from time to time. He was one of the best non-dunking finishers I've seen though - have to give him that. If he got close, he was going to get a layup, and he rarely if ever got blocked. But a lot of times at the end of games he wouldn't have the ball because he was a liability at the line as well.

 

[MikeSU02]

Can he? sure. Will he? hmmmm. . . .

I hate when Magic does this schtick on the ESPN NBA show. However, I do enjoy it on Syracusefan.com.

 

[br801]

Always wonder why people persist in this opinion about Scoop -- after he led the team to one of its best seasons, was close to the top of the league in assists two years in a row, and earned accolades from JB.

Same people who couldn't understand why Scoop & Dion were on the floor to close out tight games?

Except Scoop and Dion weren't always on the floor to close out tight games last season. Sometimes it was Triche and Scoop, and other times it was Triche and Dion. But don't let the facts cloud your perception.

 

[Ghost]

So you always felt comfortable with him handling the ball? I know he was fairly solid out there, but his defense frequently killed us and he had a tendency to hold the ball too much. And he would drive into the lane without there being an opening from time to time. He was one of the best non-dunking finishers I've seen though - have to give him that. If he got close, he was going to get a layup, and he rarely if ever got blocked. But a lot of times at the end of games he wouldn't have the ball because he was a liability at the line as well.

Purely conjecture, perhaps someone can look it up, but I would imagine Scoop's FT percentage in closing out tight games went up, and BT's went down and were fairly close overall. I'm not sure what happened late in the year, but BT was struggling with the FT's late in the game. Everything with him seems to come down to the mental aspects.

When his form is right he's a decent three point shooter, but all too often he loses the form and stops hitting. That's why he didn't even shoot as well from three as Scoop (who is not a good 3 pt. shooter - yet somehow for the past 2 years outshot a a guy that people on here often label as a great shooter).

Hopefully this is the year where he identifies this team as "his" and puts it all together. I still don't see him as an NBA guy, but he has a nice skillset and is set up well to have a great senior year - deservedly so. He seems like a really good kid.

 

[SoBristol]

Except Scoop and Dion weren't always on the floor to close out tight games last season. Sometimes it was Triche and Scoop, and other times it was Triche and Dion. But don't let the facts cloud your perception.

Except usually it was Scoop and Dion -- and BT fanatics were irate that their guy was sitting the bench.
And, then, JB explained diplomatically -- several times -- that Scoop was his best point guard -- and Dion was Dion (first round talent).
BT, though, was fine when the opposing team had to foul in the backcourt and certainly had his games when he showed his stuff.

Look -- we love all our guys. But there are posters who believe BT has a reservoir of first round talent (can slash all day, can beat his man off his dribble at will, comes off screens like GMAC or Andy, has excellent point guard skills, is our best defender, will be great when he finally gains confidence, and will emerge in his senior year like D Nichols). It is a nice dream.

 

[br801]

Except usually it was Scoop and Dion -- and BT fanatics were irate that their guy was sitting the bench.
And, then, JB explained diplomatically -- several times -- that Scoop was his best point guard -- and Dion was Dion (first round talent).
BT, though, was fine when the opposing team had to foul in the backcourt and certainly had his games when he showed his stuff.

Look -- we love all our guys. But there are posters who believe BT has a reservoir of first round talent (can slash all day, can beat his man off his dribble at will, comes off screens like GMAC or Andy, has excellent point guard skills, is our best defender, will be great when he finally gains confidence, and will emerge in his senior year like D Nichols). It is a nice dream.

There's nothing wrong with having your favorites and tending to view what they do in a favorable light. Except apparently there are a number of posters who seem to "love" some of our guys and then go out of their way to "hate" others at the same time. As a fan of the program, that is something I will never understand.

 

[billsin01]

No, what you said, exactly is this "The not-so-nice, but I think still relatively true answer is this: He's more likely to lose minutes to some combination of Cooney and potentially JS than he is to have a monster breakout season that either lands him in the draft or puts him in the same class as DNic." That's not close to what you are saying now. Probably because you realized that what you said in the first place is assinine.

I'm not going to get into a back and forth here, but I tend to disagree with most of your points, especially about Scoop. Scoop was a trainwreck waiting to happen. He had some great moments, but he was easily the most frustrating player I've watched on the SU team in a long time.

As for MCW and your assertion that 270 minutes should mean he will be fine. The bulk of those came in the OOC schedule. The most minutes he tallied in a BE game was 17. He did that three times - against Depaul, St. Johns and Providence. Not exactly the beasts of our schedule. I think he will do great, but I do worry about the possibility of him jumping in to 30 minutes a game with his slight frame.

Huh? "The not-so-nice, but I think still relatively true answer is this: He's more likely to lose minutes to some combination of Cooney and potentially JS than he is to have a monster breakout season that either lands him in the draft or puts him in the same class as DNic." Where do you see me saying "Triche will lose minutes to Cooney" in that statement?

I do think he's more likely to lose miutes to Cooney than have a huge breakout season and end up in the draft. I say that simply b/c I don't think he has much of chance at all of being in the draft. I do think the most likely scenario is that JB values his experience and the kid plays 30-31 mpg. So I do think he's more likely to lose minutes to cooney than end up in the draft but only b/c I don't see him ending up in the draft.

As to the Scoop point -- I'll simply point out that SU's record with Scoop as the primary ball-handler was absurdly good and his assist/turnover ratio was not only as good but better than both JHart and Red Autry. Even Sims had far more turnovers in his one year as a starter and, obviously, was nowhere near the threat Scoop was as a scorer.

As for MCW, I'm with you in terms of holding up but on the list of concerns for me it's waaaayyy down. I think he's really talented and injury is a concern for every player of any shape or size. Ask KJ, Onuaku, Rautins ...

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

There were those who annointed BT a star from the start, and then there were those who thought he is what he is... a 9/3/3 guy and not much more. He has a chance to change that and will write his most compelling chapter this season.