Cheating is cheating

[CousCuse]

Aye , there's the rub.

I use a Shakespearean quote and get no likes. Just WOW.

 

[jncuse]

Well now we know why all these top 20 east coast McD AAs are lining up to go to Arizona. It wasn't just the weather. Funny how these guys aren't lining up quite the same way to go to Miami.

And all it cost for a top 3 recruit was $100K. I thought paying players would kill college basketball finances. Apparently not.

Cut P5 coaching salaries by 30%, and every player could get paid $100K.

 

[Sherman20]

Is cheating. And really big cheating is really unfair.

I started a separate thread bc I feel like something's missing.

Seems like most are focusing on the topic of amateurism and how it relates to the scandal.
I just saw Jay Bilas go on and on about the ncaa's hypocrisy. This is all fair and valid imo, and I tend to agree. However, where is all the talk about cheating? (And lying?) Why didn't he mention his alma mater and their recruiting dominance? For example, as least entertain the implications for K and current players. Doesn't espn love a good Duke story? If the Syracuse investigation turned up peanuts (i'm pretty sure he called it that), then what do you call this? Because it dwarfs what we got dinged for.

I'm hearing lots of talk excusing players for being taken advantage of and coaches being victims of this corrupt system where agents and shoe companies have too much influence. Fair in some instances, maybe. But, the coaches know who the agents are and the best players and their families are aware of agents from a young age. Are we all that naive to believe they don't know what's going on? Mistakes are mistakes, but come on...

And even in a fantasy world where these coaches and players had no idea their families were getting paid by agents, the fact remains that rules were broken and they gained an unfair advantage, a huuuge advantage in this case.

Incredible how many names on the list are recruits we missed on, or key players on teams in our new conference that we've had trouble keeping up with while on sanctions. Teams who we are in direct competition with.

And where were the UNCheat signs at the dome on Wednesday?

Now I'm angry so I'm going to the court and the first person who travels is catching hell. I hope JB spits on his hand before shaking K's on Saturday. Just kidding, just kidding...kind of

The thing is, people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. You and others seem to believe SU players or their families have never been paid by agents, runners, etc. You really don’t think there’s a ledger out there with names like Chris McCullough, Malachi Richardson and other SU players on it? I certainly believe there could be. Then what will you say? I don’t think JB is doing crap like Sean Miller and actually setting up payments from agents to players to get them to sign with Syracuse. But JB and other head coaches are certainly generally aware that some players get paid by agents as an enticement to sign with them when they turn pro. However, you’d think most coaches stay far away from any involvement of who, what, where and how much. Does that make them guilty? This is the system and how it’s worked for decades. Is Izzo automatically guilty because it appears Miles Bridges or his family was given a loan by an agent? I will reserve judgment until we find out he or any other coach was in the middle of that transaction. We now know Sean Miller likely did put himself directly in the middle of a player-agent relationship to get a recruit to sign with Arizona. That’s wrong and blatantly against the current rules, and he should be terminated immediately if it’s proven to be true.

But I don’t understand how you cant see that the primary issue is the NCAA’s charade of amateurism. That’s why recruits and their families take these secret payments from agents and shoe companies. The athletes are the actual product on the floor, yet they’re the only ones not benefitting from the multi-billion dollar industry that everyone else is making millions from. Yes, they get a scholarship, and that should factor in. But it still doesn’t account for their relative market value to these programs and conferences.

 

[Madbiker]

And all it cost for a top 3 recruit was $100K. I thought paying players would kill college basketball finances. Apparently not.

Cut P5 coaching salaries by 30%, and every player could get paid $100K.

85 football players x $100K = $8.5 million. Then we have men's basketball +$1.3M. Then we have all the players on both men's and women's non revenue sports who have to be paid the same amount = many millions more. Might want to re-think that position. It's a complex issue.

 

[Ghost]

The only cheating I see that of the NCAA cheating kids out of a share of the billions of dollars generated by their free labor. The coaches are just playing the game that's been forced upon them.

The NCAA sucks...but it's a pretty transparent transaction. "Hey, kid, do you want access to all of this great stuff we have, free food, practice facilities, you'll be a god on campus, and on top of that you'll get a free education in exchange for playing a sport for us?" I mean, nobody makes them do it...it's not anyone's fault that their chosen profession doesn't make it easy for them to jump straight from High School into the professional ranks.

Is it cheating the dude that comes up with some great idea for a company because he chose to work for $50,000 a year salary, that eventually turns into a $5,000,000 a year profit-generator? Should he get his "share?"

I don't know. I'd pay the kids, but I get why they don't too. Where does it stop? Nobody is prohibiting anybody, like Lavar Ball from coming up with alternatives, can they make money though? Does ANYONE care about these kids without the Universities attached to them? Nope. Not really.

 

[CousCuse]

Jah come to break downpression,
Rule equality,
Wipe away transgression,
Set the captives free

 

[Sherman20]

What was Wendell Carter found to have done? Did i miss something? I thought the documents asserted his mother was taken to lunch once. Was there more? If i were Bilas, i don't think i'd cast the same shadow over my alma mater for that level of 'infraction' if it actually was an infraction.

re: their recruiting dominance — how is that related to the FBI investigation unless it has been shown that someone was paid? I didn't read anything that makes that claim about Duke yet. About Carter — when was that lunch? After he signed with Duke? If so, i don't see a competitive advantage even if it broke an NCAA rule.

"Believe me" — when i saw Duke's name mentioned in the headlines, i was hoping for some "bombshell" that would illuminate fraud, but i haven't seen it.

I do agree, based on what Jake and other have said in the past, that JB seems to back off of kids or families blatantly asking for money, and I would doubt he inserts himself in the middle of agent-player relationships and players getting loans, getting paid, etc. But who knows? Maybe it really does go on everywhere. However, the allegations against Sean Miller and Book Richardson and their involvement with agents would certainly explain Arizona’s ridiculous recruiting success over the past 8 years, especially with East Coast kids way outside their recruiting area.

 

[CousCuse]

I do agree, based on what Jake and other have said in the past, that JB seems to back off of kids or families blatantly asking for money, and I would doubt he inserts himself in the middle of agent-player relationships and players getting loans, getting paid, etc. But who knows? Maybe it really does go on everywhere. However, the allegations against Sean Miller and Book Richardson and their involvement with agents would certainly explain Arizona’s ridiculous recruiting success over the past 8 years, especially with East Coast kids way outside their recruiting area.

There are stories across the internet and Syracuse does not show up on the FBI radar anywhere. They know who they like for this, so people should stop implicating Syracuse.

 

[Sherman20]

The NCAA sucks...but it's a pretty transparent transaction. "Hey, kid, do you want access to all of this great stuff we have, gyms, practice facilities, you'll be a god on campus, and on top of that you'll get a free education in exchange for playing a sport for us?" I mean, nobody makes them do it...it's not anyone's fault that their chosen profession doesn't make it easy for them to jump straight from High School into the professional ranks.

Is it cheating the dude that comes up with some great idea for a company because he chose to work for $50,000 a year salary, that eventually turns into a $5,000,000 a year profit-generator? Should he get his "share?"

I don't know. I'd pay the kids, but I get why they don't too. Where does it stop? Nobody is prohibiting anybody, like Lavar Ball from coming up with alternatives, can they make money though? Does ANYONE care about these kids without the Universities attached to them? Nope. Not really.

Yes, I agree that it’s important to acknowledge that the universities and the fan allegiance to them is a huge part of the value of these TV contracts and ticket sales etc. But you need the talent, you need the athletes, so they should be paid something beyond free tuition. I also get that some people are afraid that certain booster-rich schools will have advantages over smaller or less wealthy schools. There are ways to level the playing field to create more competitive balance, just like they do in the pro sports leagues.

An obvious first step would be to give all college basketball players participating in the NCAA tournament each year a cut of the TV contract money. So, say, several million would be set aside every year, and it could be put in a trust to be distributed to athletes after they leave school.

Another obvious step is to go with the baseball and hockey model and let football and basketball players sign with agents while in college. And allow players to benefit from their name and likeness while in school.

 

[Sherman20]

And all it cost for a top 3 recruit was $100K. I thought paying players would kill college basketball finances. Apparently not.

Cut P5 coaching salaries by 30%, and every player could get paid $100K.

Agreed. But remember the players are being paid by agents and shoe companies, not the schools themselves.

 

[Sherman20]

85 football players x $100K = $8.5 million. Then we have men's basketball +$1.3M. Then we have all the players on both men's and women's non revenue sports who have to be paid the same amount = many millions more. Might want to re-think that position. It's a complex issue.

Agreed. It’s very complex. that’s why universities and the NCAA would rather just keep the status quo. But clearly the status quo isn’t working, in addition to being blatantly unfair to the athletes. I believe there are solutions, though, if the NCAA would end its amateurism party line and work towards figuring out some answers.

 

[CousCuse]

TOWNIE!

 

[jncuse]

85 football players x $100K = $8.5 million. Then we have men's basketball +$1.3M. Then we have all the players on both men's and women's non revenue sports who have to be paid the same amount = many millions more. Might want to re-think that position. It's a complex issue.

I am well aware of Title IX.

When It Comes To Paying College Athletes, Title IX Is Just A Red Herring

Also why doesn't the NCAA Cap coaching salaries at say $1.5 million for football and basketball. That would fund a decent amount of the money, in case you are that concerned about other academic programs.

 

[syrcuse]

The only cheating I see that of the NCAA cheating kids out of a share of the billions of dollars generated by their free labor. The coaches are just playing the game that's been forced upon them.

I don't agree with paying the players. In addition to free tuition and room/board, I believe they do receive a stipend. My kids held jobs during college - no stipends for kids that graduated with the highest honors. How about the kids working on professor's research projects or non-revenue sports athletes. You can pay them all......we can't afford to send everybody to college for free ( not even Gov. Cuomo ). Pay athletes and watch tuition costs explode. Remember, athletes only make up a miniscule proportion of the entire student body. Enough of the reward (i.e. pay) everyone.

 

[Ghost]

Yes, I agree that it’s important to acknowledge that the universities and the fan allegiance to them is a huge part of the value of these TV contracts and ticket sales etc. But you need the talent, you need the athletes, so they should be paid something beyond free tuition. I also get that some people are afraid that certain booster-rich schools will have advantages over smaller or less wealthy schools. There are ways to level the playing field to create more competitive balance, just like they do in the pro sports leagues.

An obvious first step would be to give all college basketball players participating in the NCAA tournament each year a cut of the TV contract money. So, say, several million would be set aside every year, and it could be put in a trust to be distributed to athletes after they leave school.

Another obvious step is to go with the baseball and hockey model and let football and basketball players sign with agents while in college. And allow players to benefit from their name and likeness while in school.

I'm not sure these kids have any quantifiable value at all without the school (or maybe much of any value at all). So, do you pay one kid more?

Let's take Bagley, what's his value the day after HS ends if he elects not to go to college. He cannot go to the NBA. How does he monetize himself? Selling his likeness? How much is he worth? Pretty much nothing, no? He could go overseas. Could he go to the D-League? What does he make there - likely not much. I doubt bringing in some big name high school kid matters to the typical D-League fan.

"Suit up kids, Bagley is in town playing tonight in a D-League match-up!"

So, his value is predicated upon him aligning himself with a school. As such, should he make more than anyone else on the team? I mean, the logistics behind this all are nightmarish. They get insanely good benefits already...we just get upset because the schools have a way to leverage it into millions and there is the NCAA looming in the background as well.

They are paid something beyond free tuition though - they get access to state-of-the-art training everything, access to coaches with contacts at professional levels that can help you get overseas, etc, or into the coaching profession down the road, probably way better housing on campus, free everything except what, clothing?

It's the world's greatest internship! They have a stipend for crap like clothes, anyway, no?

Letting them sell their own likeness would be tough - why wouldn't I just buy Bagley's autograph for $100,000 if he attends SU. That's stupid.

I think you just have to live with the fact that women's college sports can have nice tournaments because dude's like Bagley will never be paid. I think that's what the NCAA funds, no? All the other crap sports nobody cares about.

Baseball model is the way to go though...agreed!

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

I'm not sure these kids have any quantifiable value at all without the school (or maybe much of any value at all). So, do you pay one kid more?

Let's take Bagley, what's his value the day after HS ends if he elects not to go to college. He cannot go to the NBA. How does he monetize himself? Selling his likeness? How much is he worth? Pretty much nothing, no? He could go overseas. Could he go to the D-League? What does he make there - likely not much. I doubt bringing in some big name high school kid matters to the typical D-League fan.

"Suit up kids, Bagley is in town playing tonight in a D-League match-up!"

So, his value is predicated upon him aligning himself with a school. As such, should he make more than anyone else on the team? I mean, the logistics behind this all are nightmarish. They get insanely good benefits already...we just get upset because the schools have a way to leverage it into millions and there is the NCAA looming in the background as well.

They are paid something beyond free tuition though - they get access to state-of-the-art training everything, access to coaches with contacts at professional levels that can help you get overseas, etc, or into the coaching profession down the road, probably way better housing on campus, free everything except what, clothing?

It's the world's greatest internship! They have a stipend for crap like clothes, anyway, no?

Letting them sell their own likeness would be tough - why wouldn't I just buy Bagley's autograph for $100,000 if he attends SU. That's stupid.

I think you just have to live with the fact that women's college sports can have nice tournaments because dude's like Bagley will never be paid. I think that's what the NCAA funds, no? All the other crap sports nobody cares about.

Baseball model is the way to go though...agreed!

Can u go to D league. Don't you have to be assigned by a team.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

I'm not sure these kids have any quantifiable value at all without the school (or maybe much of any value at all). So, do you pay one kid more?

Let's take Bagley, what's his value the day after HS ends if he elects not to go to college. He cannot go to the NBA. How does he monetize himself? Selling his likeness? How much is he worth? Pretty much nothing, no? He could go overseas. Could he go to the D-League? What does he make there - likely not much. I doubt bringing in some big name high school kid matters to the typical D-League fan.

"Suit up kids, Bagley is in town playing tonight in a D-League match-up!"

So, his value is predicated upon him aligning himself with a school. As such, should he make more than anyone else on the team? I mean, the logistics behind this all are nightmarish. They get insanely good benefits already...we just get upset because the schools have a way to leverage it into millions and there is the NCAA looming in the background as well.

They are paid something beyond free tuition though - they get access to state-of-the-art training everything, access to coaches with contacts at professional levels that can help you get overseas, etc, or into the coaching profession down the road, probably way better housing on campus, free everything except what, clothing?

It's the world's greatest internship! They have a stipend for crap like clothes, anyway, no?

Letting them sell their own likeness would be tough - why wouldn't I just buy Bagley's autograph for $100,000 if he attends SU. That's stupid.

I think you just have to live with the fact that women's college sports can have nice tournaments because dude's like Bagley will never be paid. I think that's what the NCAA funds, no? All the other crap sports nobody cares about.

Baseball model is the way to go though...agreed!

Can u go to D league. Don't you have to be assigned by a team.

 

[Ghost]

Can u go to D league. Don't you have to be assigned by a team.

I'm not even sure - if you can't, then you go to Europe I guess. Or just practice on your own and get money from whomever will invest in you.

 

[syrcuse]

Can u go to D league. Don't you have to be assigned by a team.

Big baller Brand league just got popular!!!

 

[WaHoos4Me]

I'm not sure these kids have any quantifiable value at all without the school (or maybe much of any value at all). So, do you pay one kid more?

Let's take Bagley, what's his value the day after HS ends if he elects not to go to college. He cannot go to the NBA. How does he monetize himself? Selling his likeness? How much is he worth? Pretty much nothing, no? He could go overseas. Could he go to the D-League? What does he make there - likely not much. I doubt bringing in some big name high school kid matters to the typical D-League fan.

"Suit up kids, Bagley is in town playing tonight in a D-League match-up!"

So, his value is predicated upon him aligning himself with a school. As such, should he make more than anyone else on the team? I mean, the logistics behind this all are nightmarish. They get insanely good benefits already...we just get upset because the schools have a way to leverage it into millions and there is the NCAA looming in the background as well.

They are paid something beyond free tuition though - they get access to state-of-the-art training everything, access to coaches with contacts at professional levels that can help you get overseas, etc, or into the coaching profession down the road, probably way better housing on campus, free everything except what, clothing?

It's the world's greatest internship! They have a stipend for crap like clothes, anyway, no?

Letting them sell their own likeness would be tough - why wouldn't I just buy Bagley's autograph for $100,000 if he attends SU. That's stupid.

I think you just have to live with the fact that women's college sports can have nice tournaments because dude's like Bagley will never be paid. I think that's what the NCAA funds, no? All the other crap sports nobody cares about.

Baseball model is the way to go though...agreed!

I'm still in awe of Bagley being able to complete 4 or 5 courses during summer break to allow him to graduate and become academically eligible to attend Duke... that's something there... TIC of course

 

[cuse10]

If you think it was just a lunch, you're insane. Carter, Bagley, Williamson are going to be among the Duke players that shouldn't have been eligible to play.

 

[Ghost]

If you think it was just a lunch, you're insane. Carter, Bagley, Williamson are going to be among the Duke players that shouldn't have been eligible to play.

That's why they likely brought Bagley back - at this point, just like with Ayton, why the heck not. They already know it's all being vacated! hahah

 

[CousCuse]

That's why they likely brought Bagley back - at this point, just like with Ayton, why the heck not. They already know it's all being vacated! hahah

Why the heck not? Because you are telling the FBI and federal judges that you think they don't have the guts to do something about it. You are aware that this is a 3 year investigation and they are preparing indictments. If law enforcement made you aware that you were committing a crime by doing something, would you keep doing it.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

The only cheating I see that of the NCAA cheating kids out of a share of the billions of dollars generated by their free labor. The coaches are just playing the game that's been forced upon them.

You and I don’t see eye to eye on anything but this is an outstanding post and is dead-on accurate.

 

[jncuse]

Why the heck not? Because you are telling the FBI and federal judges that you think they don't have the guts to do something about it. You are aware that this is a 3 year investigation and they are preparing indictments. If law enforcement made you aware that you were committing a crime by doing something, would you keep doing it.

Most forms of illegal recruiting are not a crime.

The FBI is not investigating illegal recruiting - they are in the business of investigating crimes. They are investigating bribery and wire fraud that has occurred, stuff that is actually criminal. But in their search for dirt they have naturally come across corruption in recruiting, which could be violations and not crimes. And some of this has apparently been leaked.