Chris Ash thread...

[orangenirvana]

I don't know much about him other than Ohio State fans love him and normally hate almost all their assistant coaches.

Here is what an Arkansas blogger said about Ash and the job he did with the Arkansas defense...

Linkage

Don't watch much OSU, Arkansas or Wisconsin football. I don't have Ash in my top 4 or 5 candidates. I would strongly prefer to get an offensive guru type.

I just know there are a lot of people inside the OSU football program and nationally who think very highly of him. He has coached a lot of great defenses in a short period of time. Judging him exclusively on a one year stint in Arkansas might not be the best way to evaluate him.

He was never really hyped as recruiter. He certainly wasn't known for being one of the top recruiters on Arkansas' staff. Of course, Ohio State typically has much more success in recruiting than Arkansas or Wisconsin, so he may be more successful recruiting to Ohio State, but I can't honestly say he's some sort of ace recruiter.

 

[N.Y. Orangeman]

Shafer - Good guy. Peers think highly of him. Recruits and Players love him. Defensive coordinator at P5.
Ash - Good guy. Peers think highly of him. Recruits and Players love him. Defensive coordinator at P5.


But unfair to assume they will coach the same? They almost have the exact same resume? Why make the change when Shafer already has great ties with the community. Screams my number 1 choice turned me down and I don't know what to do let me call my buddy.

Ash>>>>>Shafer. And it is not even close. The guys is an absolute wizard on defense (I am a Bucks guy as well). I don't say this lightly, but I don't think there is anyone other than Saban I would take over him to fix a secondary.

 

[Finwad32]

Perhaps I worded that poorly. The numbers aren't being manipulated to demonstrate your point. Just that different people can take different years/different teams/different stats to back up your point. The numbers you posted were accurate, just as the other numbers that other selected that backed up their point of view were.

My point being stats are useful, but if someone is a competent coach, you will find some numbers that make him look good. Just like you can always find numbers that make him look bad if you are against him. No one has universally awesome numbers, so there will always be disagreement about what coach/philosophy people want in their new HC.

Go home Mr. Ash, there's no room for logic here...



I kid I kid.

 

[SWC75]

It's Coyle playing the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit.

Or the
Kobayashi Maru

 

[nzm136]

Gross hired the worst coach in Syracuse history and waited too long to fire him.
Got pushed into hiring the best coach in the last 11 in Marrone.

If you're looking for a young CFB coach who has championship experience, Frost and Ash are better hires on paper than Shafer and Robinson (and maybe Marrone).

...Except GRob had championship experience at the college AND pro level.

And in what way is either better than Shafer? Not only was Shafer an internal hire (i.e. he knew the system), but he was a brilliant DC at top level schools (well, I'm not sure you can count Michigan - he was only there for a year and UM was unimpressive that year). Still, it Oregon markedly better than Stanford? And is keeping Oregon running at a high level harder than rebuilding Stanford?

I could argue that Coyle fired SS too soon. Firing a really good defensive mind for fielding weak offense, during a year in which his teams ppg improved by over 40 places as a result of freshman and sophomore players and a new offensive scheme, is a bad idea. One could argue that at best, it suggests nepotism (i.e. the AD wants his own guy). And one could also argue that at worst, it shows a lack of loyalty, which means that the SU coaching job isn't stable enough for top tier coaching talent. One could also argue that this is a seller's market and that there will most likely be better options next year, so firing a coach now and not waiting is a terrible plan. Finally, one could also argue that it will be hard to attract a coach while we remodel our stadium because we will essentially spend 1-2 years on the road and almost no good coach is going to sign up for that. So, even if you really don't like SS and/or think that he's the "right" guy, keepign him might have been worth it just to have a fall guy.

 

[SWC75]

Some people don't know how to be critical without going all 13 year old. It happened when we waited for Shafer to be fired now it's happening while we wait for someone to be hired.

Everybody wants to be right. It's not enough to be hopeful.

 

[Qbobby]

Go home Mr. Ash, there's no room for logic here...



I kid I kid.

Dammit... my cover is blown! >.>

 

[KaiserUEO]

Coyle hasn't said anything

thought he made a statement about offense and making it up tempo or something?

 

[orange79]

More like the Kobayashi Maru test

Or the
Kobayashi Maru

Ahem

Great minds...

 

[OrangeXtreme]

How many times did Kirk fail the Kobayashi Maru test until he cheated?

 

[TheCusian]

...Except GRob had championship experience at the college AND pro level. And in what way is either better than Shafer? Not only was Shafer an internal hire (i.e. he knew the system), but he was a brilliant DC at top level schools (well, I'm not sure you can count Michigan - he was only there for a year and UM was unimpressive that year). Still, it Oregon markedly better than Stanford? And is keeping Oregon running at a high level harder than rebuilding Stanford? I could argue that Coyle fired SS too soon. Firing a really good defensive mind for fielding weak offense, during a year in which his teams ppg improved by over 40 places as a result of freshman and sophomore players and a new offensive scheme, is a bad idea. One could argue that at best, it suggests nepotism (i.e. the AD wants his own guy). And one could also argue that at worst, it shows a lack of loyalty, which means that the SU coaching job isn't stable enough for top tier coaching talent. One could also argue that this is a seller's market and that there will most likely be better options next year, so firing a coach now and not waiting is a terrible plan. Finally, one could also argue that it will be hard to attract a coach while we remodel our stadium because we will essentially spend 1-2 years on the road and almost no good coach is going to sign up for that. So, even if you really don't like SS and/or think that he's the "right" guy, keepign him might have been worth it just to have a fall guy.

I'll only respond to the top half of the argument as the rest is in the past. (Basically - I was all in on Shafer for 2.75 years. So I get it.)

Frost's resume as OC for the Ducks is better than Shafer's. Elite offense > good defense. Besides, Shafer wasn't at Stanford for very long. He did good things there but it was brief.

 

[Melancer46]

Shafer - Good guy. Peers think highly of him. Recruits and Players love him. Defensive coordinator at P5.
Ash - Good guy. Peers think highly of him. Recruits and Players love him. Defensive coordinator at P5.


But unfair to assume they will coach the same? They almost have the exact same resume? Why make the change when Shafer already has great ties with the community. Screams my number 1 choice turned me down and I don't know what to do let me call my buddy.

Isn't being a good guy that everyone thinks highly of something that you'd want in a coach? It seems that the only hang up there is that both have backgrounds as a defensive coordinator. I honestly don't know much about Ash's defensive system, but perhaps his plans for the defense and offense are simply different than what Shafer wants to do. Perhaps Ash will surround himself with better coaches than Shafer did. Perhaps Ash will surround himself with better recruiters than Shafer did.

Yes, it is silly and unfair to make the assumption that all defensive coaches are essentially the same lol. I want an offensive coach (specifically one that coaches a spread/air raid type offense), but that doesn't mean Ash is guaranteed to be a bad coach just because Shafer is.

 

[SWC75]

Meyer always uses Co-coordinators.

Withers and Fickell
Herman and Warinner
Fickell and Ash
Warinner and Beck

Charlie Strong and Greg Mattison were co-DC's at Florida.

Every time I hear the term "co-cordinator" I think of an orchestra with two conductors. What the heck does it mean?

 

[soocher4]

Ask the buckeye fans who they don't want to lose and its Ash. They seem to think their D would slip up with Fickell in charge completely. Most of the top teams have co coordinators or more job titles than your average school does. It gets them paid or they use it to retain them.

 

[SWC75]

I wonder if Chris Ash is related to this guy...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR9tTFwxRBc

(Sorry, the mind of an old movie fan works in strange ways.)

 

[TheCusian]

Ask the buckeye fans who they don't want to lose and its Ash. They seem to think their D would slip up with Fickell in charge completely. Most of the top teams have co coordinators or more job titles than your average school does. It gets them paid or they use it to retain them.

All that doesn't make him the right fit here though. We need proven offense. Not well-liked and respected defense (we just fired that).

 

[nzm136]

I'll only respond to the top half of the argument as the rest is in the past. (Basically - I was all in on Shafer for 2.75 years. So I get it.)

Frost's resume as OC for the Ducks is better than Shafer's. Elite offense > good defense. Besides, Shafer wasn't at Stanford for very long. He did good things there but it was brief.

Well, we can argue who is better between SS and Ash/Frost all day long, but my point is more that Coyle's decisions have been controversial so far - from both a personnel and timing standpoint. Say what you want about DG's football hires (although I think HCDM was a good coach and HCSS was a good hire that could have worked out), but he really wasn't a bad AD. He was very good at raising money, (arguably) he got us into the ACC, (arguably) he played a significant role in holding the ACC together by supporting UL's membership, and he improved our director's cup ranking by making our olympic sports world class. Had HCDM stayed for another 5-10 years, I think that even football would have been back. IMHO, DG got unlucky.

Admittedly, we did get hammered by a NCAA investigation, and part of that was DG's doing. Still, I do think it's worth noting that some of the violations occurred before DG got to SU, and I think that SU picked up PSU's tab. IMHO, the NCAA went light on PSU and was slow to act, so they annihilated SU to look tough.

On the whole, I honestly think that DG was one of the better ADs in the country. Coyle is an unknown in my book. I think that definitively saying he's better is a stretch at this point.

 

[TheCusian]

Well, we can argue who is better between SS and Ash/Frost all day long, but my point is more that Coyle's decisions have been controversial so far - from both a personnel and timing standpoint. Say what you want about DG's football hires (although I think HCDM was a good coach and HCSS was a good hire that could have worked out), but he really wasn't a bad AD. He was very good at raising money, (arguably) he got us into the ACC, (arguably) he played a significant role in holding the ACC together by supporting UL's membership, and he improved our director's cup ranking by making our olympic sports world class. Had HCDM stayed for another 5-10 years, I think that even football would have been back. IMHO, DG got unlucky. Admittedly, we did get hammered by a NCAA investigation, and part of that was DG's going. Still, I do think it's worth noting that some of the violations occurred before DG got to SU, and I think that SU picked up PSU's tab. IMHO, the NCAA went light on PSU and was slow to act, so they annihilated SU to look tough. On the whole, I honestly think that DG was one of the better ADs in the country. Coyle is an unknown in my book. I think that definitively saying he's better is a stretch at this point.

I think you're overrating Gross. You may be right that we don't have enough info on Coyle yet. But I'd take the unknown over Gross.

 

[timkay99]

Ask the buckeye fans who they don't want to lose and its Ash. They seem to think their D would slip up with Fickell in charge completely. Most of the top teams have co coordinators or more job titles than your average school does. It gets them paid or they use it to retain them.

Fickell is still the one calling plays though even with Ash currently there.

Ash is an elite secondary coach, no one denies that. Doesn't have much else on the resume to show he is anything beyond that.

 

[phil77]

Ash>>>>>Shafer. And it is not even close. The guys is an absolute wizard on defense (I am a Bucks guy as well). I don't say this lightly, but I don't think there is anyone other than Saban I would take over him to fix a secondary.

Sweet now we have a secondary wizard as our head coach.

 

[N.Y. Orangeman]

Fickell is still the one calling plays though even with Ash currently there.

Ash is an elite secondary coach, no one denies that. Doesn't have much else on the resume to show he is anything beyond that.

He was the DC at Arkansas and Wisconsin.

 

[nzm136]

I think you're overrating Gross. You may be right that we don't have enough info on Coyle yet. But I'd take the unknown over Gross.

We have a soccer team in the final four, 2 NCs, 2 ranked bball teams, and both lax teams have shots at title runs. It's hard to say that non-football sports aren't doing well. We've also updated all our football practice facilities (including putting turf in Manley), we updated the Dome (to an extent), and we built the Melo Center under DG's watch. It's hard to say that DG didn't improve our facilities and raise money.

Other than hire better football coaches (one was a disaster, one was pretty good, and one was a question mark) and get less unlucky with Bernie Fine accusers attracting the NCAA's attention (and the accompanying media witch hunt), I don't know what he could have done better.

 

[OrangePA]

That's straight up old school.

Yucchh

 

[TexanMark]

Coyle's legacy will be judged on this hire.

I'd rather wait a week to get it right.

 

[Oswego93]

People really searching for the silver linings in this poo-poo platter cloud.

1)You can;t assume anything about his recruiting when he is doing it at a school the caliber of OSU. Especially when he was never known as a fantastic recruitert prior to his tenure at OSU.
2)No one can definitively say who the "real" DC is at OSU. I am seeing people twist definitions of what a DC does just to make it seem like LF is the arm candy to Ash. For all we know, it is the other way around.
3)Whoopdee damn do, he is a great secondary coach. That will be small consolation as we are putting up 17 points per game.