Cornell / Maryland thread (the last game)

[OrangeXtreme]

 

[upperdeck]

you would think the best coach would be better at 2 game prep if he really is that much better than the rest of the coaches,

 

[wgdsr]

you would think the best coach would be better at 2 game prep if he really is that much better than the rest of the coaches,

it's a player's game then!!!!

 

[Bayside44]

it's a player's game then!!!!

Best player in the NCAAs had 6 goals and an assist.

Imagine if SU blew two late game clears like UMD did.

 

[Cuse4455]

Must be nice to have a good coach.

 

[relaxer]

but you can go back further and essentially eliminate one of them. why the cutoff @ 18?

Just because that was the stat I heard coming into today on the broadcast and I didn't feel like digging to see who was the earlier semi-final beforehand. 18 seasons seems like a large enough sample size to opine on, especially since the further back you go, the less applicable the comps are due to how much the game has changed.

 

[JeremyCuse]

Best player in the NCAAs had 6 goals and an assist.

Imagine if SU blew two late game clears like UMD did.

Kirst was never losing in his last game. The two failed clears or not Cornell was never losing that game. As for your other question those sort of issues don't matter as much when you've been to 9 title games in a decade and half.

 

[relaxer]

Cornell certainly felt like the best team from start to finish this season so Congrats to them on a heck of a season.

Can Cuse ever get the Maryland team that showed up today that is clearly a little off and makes mistakes? Honestly you could see how much Cornell wanted it, everyone looked like they were on the same page in that sense.

Also much like the Kavanaugh's, I will not miss having to face Kirst any longer.

Cuse can get that team if they make the final and they are the better team. Maryland looks vulnerable on championship Monday because that's when the Tillman advantage is mitigated due to the short turnaround. Often times they make it further than they should based on talent, and then in the final when coaching is less of a factor that gets exposed.

 

[Bayside44]

Kirst was never losing in his last game. The two failed clears or not Cornell was never losing that game. As for your other question those sort of issues don't matter as much when you've been to 9 title games in a decade and half.

You get my point on the clears. Non stop about how disciplined and well coached they are and yet they too blew a simple play late in the game not once but twice.

Somewhere in this thread Pat March gets blamed for not having a guy as talented as CJ Kirst go nuts.

 

[JeremyCuse]

You get my point on the clears. Non stop about how disciplined and well coached they are and yet they too blew a simple play late in the game not once but twice.

Somewhere in this thread Pat March gets blamed for not having a guy as talented as CJ Kirst go nuts.

I certainly get it but as noted during the game when it happened live "uncharacteristic mistake by Maryland", that happening to SU is unfortunately not uncharacteristic. Your also comparing it to a National championship game and a team/coach that's been there 9 of the last 14 seasons and 4 of the last 5.

 

[JeremyCuse]

Cuse can get that team if they make the final and they are the better team. Maryland looks vulnerable on championship Monday because that's when the Tillman advantage is mitigated due to the short turnaround. Often times they make it further than they should based on talent, and then in the final when coaching is less of a factor that gets exposed.

Bingo

 

[wgdsr]

Just because that was the stat I heard coming into today on the broadcast and I didn't feel like digging to see who was the earlier semi-final beforehand. 18 seasons seems like a large enough sample size to opine on, especially since the further back you go, the less applicable the comps are due to how much the game has changed.

the game was slowing 18 years ago from previous iterations. and didn't pick up much until the shot clock.
7 of the 8 previous years were the later game. i don't know the rest bc pre '99 was tough to find gametimes, i gave up.

are players in worse shape than years ago?

higher seeded teams are:
13-5 last 18 years
18-8 last 26 years
27-12 since inception

that's right about or over 70% for all 3. they've been running this schtick for years without acknowledging the above ever.

 

[Bayside44]

I certainly get it but as noted during the game when it happened live "uncharacteristic mistake by Maryland", that happening to SU is unfortunately not uncharacteristic. Your also comparing it to a National championship game and a team/coach that's been there 9 of the last 14 seasons and 4 of the last 5.

Maryland turned it over more than we did Saturday.

Our guy has been here four years and the only way he was going to games on Memorial Day weekend the first two was with a ticket.

Agree with you that Kirst - the best player in D1, was going to make it happen.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

 

[relaxer]

the game was slowing 18 years ago from previous iterations. and didn't pick up much until the shot clock.
7 of the 8 previous years were the later game. i don't know the rest bc pre '99 was tough to find gametimes, i gave up.

are players in worse shape than years ago?

higher seeded teams are:
13-5 last 18 years
18-8 last 26 years
27-12 since inception

that's right about or over 70% for all 3. they've been running this schtick for years without acknowledging the above ever.

It's not the only factor or necessarily even the biggest factor, but when the first semi-winner wins 14/18, that's a trend. Higher seeds being 13-5 is also a trend. They're not mutually exclusive, they can both be factors. I don't think playing the later game a factor today, or even in most of Maryland's title losses: usually it's that they overachieve and it catches up to them in the final when they can't gameplan and have to beat a superior team straight up.

But when the margins are tight, like in 2016 and 2021, it probably does make a difference. It certainly did in 2022 when they finished their semifinal at 9pm due to weather issues; they were dead in the water in the 4th quarter and almost blew it against Cornell despite having probably the best team ever.

 

[RoofBeam]

I certainly don't have my finger on the pulse of college lax but can anyone even suggest a convincing argument that Tillman is not the best coach in the men's game right now? A fine tactician, an effective recruiter, a highly-skilled motivator who works non-stop. I don't love watching his teams play but it is hard to argue with his results.

 

[JeremyCuse]

Maryland turned it over more than we did Saturday.

Our guy has been here four years and the only way he was going to games on Memorial Day weekend the first two was with a ticket.

Agree with you that Kirst - the best player in D1, was going to make it happen.

I don't think anyone expected SU to make the tournament the first few years (maybe the 2nd) much less make a final four run. Again I think there's a disconnect fans who just don't like Gait as a HC and guys like myself who like him but have long term concerns. The team made excellent progress this year but there's still a major concern about getting the details right and getting the team buttoned up. The talent level from year 1 to now is pretty much night and day I mean they just go to the final four, no one can argue the staff hasn't done a good job there. The bigger issue is a lot of the mistakes that hurt the 1st few years are still an issue in year 4 (save for FOGO play) even with a mostly upper class squad. Maybe were still in a progression stage but I think it's also realistic to have concerns about it.

Next year is another massive year, need to hit the portal for a few key guys and weave in some young guys to replace English and Hiltz especially and Rice (massive loss). Talent is there for a repeat return to memorial day but this team also can't keep getting down 5-6 goals every game and look lost for a qtr or so at some point most games.

 

[swish7]

IMO, Cornell won, not bc of Tillman flaws, but bc of player effort & execution. Cornell won most of the 50 50 stuff all game long. They bullied the bullies.

& Kirst.
& Goldstein.
& the goalie sorta stood on his head. Lots of incredible saves & 0 head scratchers.

 

[wgdsr]

It's not the only factor or necessarily even the biggest factor, but when the first semi-winner wins 14/18, that's a trend. Higher seeds being 13-5 is also a trend. They're not mutually exclusive, they can both be factors. I don't think playing the later game a factor today, or even in most of Maryland's title losses: usually it's that they overachieve and it catches up to them in the final when they can't gameplan and have to beat a superior team straight up.

But when the margins are tight, like in 2016 and 2021, it probably does make a difference. It certainly did in 2022 when they finished their semifinal at 9pm due to weather issues; they were dead in the water in the 4th quarter and almost blew it against Cornell despite having probably the best team ever.

it's okay, we just disagree. i don't think it's a factor at all.
their correlatuon slots nicely with higher seed, that's all.
umd 2022 had a layup in the semis as far as energy expended vs uva. they were so exhausted, they came back from 11-16 with 6 minutes left to come within a chest shot of going to ot.
2022, they played 3 o and d mids 80-90% of the time in some heat. that's on them.

the "last x years" thing doesn't hold up longer term, you have to create a narrative. better team ends up winning does.

all that said, i'm inclined to believe "tillman would do better with more time to gameplan". he'd know what he wants to do, but getting that out of everyone to a man as its dynamic is tough.

 

[tbonezone]

only one F4 team shut out ? were we that horrible across the board ?

 

[SUlax88-09]

Our attack could not dodge… that was the difference. I’ve been saying it for 3 years, ever since Gait handed over the keys to the offense to Spallina, and I’ll have to say it until Spallina graduates or until Gait leaves. Goldstein and Kirst could dodge and win their 1v1 matchups, and that’s what beat Maryland today. The missed clears didn’t lose the game for Maryland, their inability to win the 1v1 matchups on defense was the difference. Congrats to Cornell.

Lacrosse isn’t that complicated… if you can win your 1v1 matchups, then you win, and if you can’t, then you lose. You can pass the ball all you want in a 6v6 set, but ultimately someone needs to win a 1v1 match-up (unless you’re in man-up, and then, and only then, does the box-style offense of ball movement work against great teams)

Gait is one of the greatest 1v1 players of all time, so why can’t he see that? Spallina was great against Princeton, but other than that game and certainly against Maryland, he cannot dodge! He can score all the points he wants to against lesser teams, but we will never win a championship if our attack cannot dodge and win 1v1 matchups-ups.

Laugh all you want at me, but at least let me be wrong before you laugh. I would have played Anderson on attack and let him dodge and draw the slide and pass to Thomson or Hiltz to finish the goals (or just score the goal himself if a team like Maryland doesn’t slide). If a player cannot dodge, then you cannot ride him to a championship. Spallina will be a great professional box lacrosse player, but not a great PLL player because of that. He should work on his speed this summer, but I can’t blame him for playing more box lacrosse because he really is special as a box player

 

[OrangeXtreme]

 

[SkyTopBus44]

Our attack could not dodge… that was the difference. I’ve been saying it for 3 years, ever since Gait handed over the keys to the offense to Spallina, and I’ll have to say it until Spallina graduates or until Gait leaves. Goldstein and Kirst could dodge and win their 1v1 matchups, and that’s what beat Maryland today. The missed clears didn’t lose the game for Maryland, their inability to win the 1v1 matchups on defense was the difference. Congrats to Cornell.

Lacrosse isn’t that complicated… if you can win your 1v1 matchups, then you win, and if you can’t, then you lose. You can pass the ball all you want in a 6v6 set, but ultimately someone needs to win a 1v1 match-up (unless you’re in man-up, and then, and only then, does the box-style offense of ball movement work against great teams)

Gait is one of the greatest 1v1 players of all time, so why can’t he see that? Spallina was great against Princeton, but other than that game and certainly against Maryland, he cannot dodge! He can score all the points he wants to against lesser teams, but we will never win a championship if our attack cannot dodge and win 1v1 matchups-ups.

Laugh all you want at me, but at least let me be wrong before you laugh. I would have played Anderson on attack and let him dodge and draw the slide and pass to Thomson or Hiltz to finish the goals (or just score the goal himself if a team like Maryland doesn’t slide). If a player cannot dodge, then you cannot ride him to a championship. Spallina will be a great professional box lacrosse player, but not a great PLL player because of that. He should work on his speed this summer, but I can’t blame him for playing more box lacrosse because he really is special as a box player

How many teams have elite dodgers? I know always had them on our championship teams. Some of those individual players were among the best of all time. It is not super easy to identify those skills in recruiting as I am sure most of the top players can create their own offense in high school. I also think we could benefit from some short stick defensive midfielders. I would think that this is another type of player not as easy to spot in recruiting.

The ability to clear the ball seems like that is something that our coaching staff can fix. Teaching them to be elite dodgers seems like a tall task.

 

[SUlax88-09]

How many teams have elite dodgers? I know always had them on our championship teams. Some of those individual players were among the best of all time. It is not super easy to identify those skills in recruiting as I am sure most of the top players can create their own offense in high school. I also think we could benefit from some short stick defensive midfielders. I would think that this is another type of player not as easy to spot in recruiting.

The ability to clear the ball seems like that is something that our coaching staff can fix. Teaching them to be elite dodgers seems like a tall task.

True, but if you wear #22 at Syracuse and will soon become the all-time leading scorer at Syracuse, then I do expect you to be able to dodge. Cornell had 2 elite dodging threats on attack, which would be great, but I’d settle for just 1!

In our past glory days, we always had 2 dodging attackmen and 1 attackman who could finish (often a Canadian/box player). I think Anderson could be a dodger (which is why I thought he would have been better for our offense then Spallina, and many laughed at me).

Gait’s/March’s offense has had no dodging attackmen for the past 3 seasons, so I think it’s intentional. Gait seems to be enamored with ball movement and recruiting box players, but it’s just not going to win us a chip. It’s about balance. Box players/finishers who are good passers are great to have on the team, but we can’t only have 3 of them as our attack unit. This is Field lacrosse! We need at least 1 (preferably 2) attackmen who can dodge

 

[FloridaCuse]

McNaney’s kryptonite (like many goalies) bounce shots.

Over hand bouncers have beaten him cleanly today.

Don’t recall seeing many bouncers against him on Saturday.

Almost all year Syracuse played like bounce shots weren't allowed. My pet peeve. They're not coached to take bounce shots. Except a few times by Mullen and once or twice by Hiltz & English.