Development in and Around Syracuse Discussion

[DownTheField]

Oh good good. I am sure the perception of the people who live in Cicero is that it's quicker to go through Syracuse to get to Lafayette. Take down the viaduct. Hopefully in a few years when people see what a mess has been created, they can come up with the cash to fix the mistake. Of course maybe with all the new property tax revenue will help.

I live in Cicero and in my opinion the time it takes to get from Cicero to the other side of the city should have absolutely nothing to do with the decision. Same with the ease of truck drivers getting from one side of the city to the other. This has to do with the redevelopment of a city, not how easy it is to drive through the city. It's not some god given right for 18 wheelers, or even people driving from Binghamton to Watertown to be able to fly through the middle of Syracuse. I'm sure you wouldn't volunteer to put a walkway through your house because it's easier for your neighbor on one side to visit the neighbor on the other side.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Cicero to 481 South to 81 South at Rock Cut Road would actually be faster than going through the City. But who cares about facts?

Wrong. It’s 5 minutes faster on 81 from experience if you live southwest of city. Nobody drives the 55 mph limit on 81.

 

[shandeezy7]

It's only 3 miles longer on 481. When upgraded to 81, the speed limit can be 65 instead of the 55 it is through downtown. It's a wash time-wise.

Actually, the speed limit through downtown is only 45 on 81 (not that anyone actually goes that slow). And yeah, the speed limit on 481 is 65 the entire length.

 

[shandeezy7]

Wrong. It’s 5 minutes faster on 81 from experience if you live southwest of city. Nobody drives the 55 mph limit on 81.

It's closer to 3 minutes, but regardless, the difference is negligible. Certainly not enough to warrant the further destruction of the city.

 

[FrancoPizza]

At the end of the day, this is HCDB’s decision. And I believe he said he loved being able to zip from one side of the city to the other. Give the man what he wants.

 

[xc84]

Wrong. It’s 5 minutes faster on 81 from experience if you live southwest of city. Nobody drives the 55 mph limit on 81.

So an extra 3 miles on a road that is 65 mph v. one that is 55/45 is 5 minutes slower. You flunked.

 

[FasterCuse]

The only concern I have about this, is the on/off ramp for 81 at 481 north of the city is already a traffic nightmare some days. This intersections of highway is going to have to be totally redesigned in the decide to take down the 81 viaduct. I'm concerned because I haven't seen in the past where any state planners/engineers have had the foresight to see these types of issues until years down the road.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

The only concern I have about this, is the on/off ramp for 81 at 481 north of the city is already a traffic nightmare some days. This intersections of highway is going to have to be totally redesigned in the decide to take down the 81 viaduct. I'm concerned because I haven't seen in the past where any state planners/engineers have had the foresight to see these types of issues until years down the road.

Rethinking I-81: Eastern suburbs could see new highway names, interchanges, lanes

 

[OttoMets]

The only concern I have about this, is the on/off ramp for 81 at 481 north of the city is already a traffic nightmare some days. This intersections of highway is going to have to be totally redesigned in the decide to take down the 81 viaduct. I'm concerned because I haven't seen in the past where any state planners/engineers have had the foresight to see these types of issues until years down the road.

This is a concern. The curve is already tight and there's a residential area directly to the north. It'll have to be designed to accommodate 65 mph traffic.

This is why the DEIS delays are inexcusable - regardless of what option is chosen, these interchange upgrades need to be made now. Barring something unusual, the viaduct is coming down in the next few years, either permanently or for a decade of reconstruction. 481 upgrades need to be underway long before that happens.

 

[gocusecaz]

Rethinking I-81: Eastern suburbs could see new highway names, interchanges, lanes

From a quick look at the above look at the area of the ramp leading from the current 481 north to 81 north, it appears that to this untrained eye that about 10 houses on Brigadier Lane will have an interstate in their backyard. I know they are relatively close to 81 now, but if I owned one of those houses and they decided to take down the viaduct, I would seriously consider moving out of there before my home value dropped.

 

[gocusecaz]

Rethinking I-81: Eastern suburbs could see new highway names, interchanges, lanes

From a quick look at the above look at the area of the ramp leading from the current 481 north to 81 north, it appears that to this untrained eye that about 10 houses on Brigadier Lane will have an interstate in their backyard. I know they are relatively close to 81 now, but if I owned one of those houses and they decided to take down the viaduct, I would seriously consider moving out of there before my home value dropped.

 

[shandeezy7]

From a quick look at the above look at the area of the ramp leading from the current 481 north to 81 north, it appears that to this untrained eye that about 10 houses on Brigadier Lane will have an interstate in their backyard. I know they are relatively close to 81 now, but if I owned one of those houses and they decided to take down the viaduct, I would seriously consider moving out of there before my home value dropped.

It doesn't look to me like the proposed highway comes any closer than the highly-trafficked off-ramp that is currently there. I suppose there will be more traffic than previously, but it doesn't come any closer to their property than what is currently there. I'm sure the state would build fencing/sound barriers there as well, like they did following an expansion project on Interstate 90 in Buffalo.

 

[gocusecaz]

So adding 3 lanes of traffic wouldn't take up more space. They are either going to have to make that off ramp from the current 81 a really tight turn to free up space or get closer to those houses. Plus from the plan set out above, there will have to be some sort of bridge added to get the south bound lanes into the new configuration.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Well that was bitching about the closing of one block. Even though the only thing we would be closing is the viaduct, we would be talking about 15 to 20 blocks of city streets. I guess people would get used to it, or just say the hell with it. Also I'm pretty sure the trucking companies that travel through the city now will be excited about the extra cost of going around Syracuse. Having a brother in law who drives truck I know the companies always send them on the shortest route to save money.

Well, not always, because not all routes are open to commercial trucks.
Going through Syracuse on that highway is no picnic. It's dangerous and slow, compared to going around.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Huh!!! Are you using the city streets? That's adding a bunch of miles.

The impact on the average commute was shown to increase by about 1.4 miles on city streets. Five minutes, maybe.

 

[IthacaMatt]

It doesn't look to me like the proposed highway comes any closer than the highly-trafficked off-ramp that is currently there. I suppose there will be more traffic than previously, but it doesn't come any closer to their property than what is currently there. I'm sure the state would build fencing/sound barriers there as well, like they did following an expansion project on Interstate 90 in Buffalo.

The plan is to use State Street between Brighton and Adams for northbound traffic, and exit traffic at 3 separate stop lights. I'm pretty sure that's what I saw.

Southbound, I could be wrong, but I think the traffic ends similarly in stages from the Mall to about Court Street.

There won't be the need for any sound baffling in Syracuse, because you will be taking highway away, not adding it.

 

[IthacaMatt]

The only concern I have about this, is the on/off ramp for 81 at 481 north of the city is already a traffic nightmare some days. This intersections of highway is going to have to be totally redesigned in the decide to take down the 81 viaduct. I'm concerned because I haven't seen in the past where any state planners/engineers have had the foresight to see these types of issues until years down the road.

That's a legitimate concern. I'd have to think that they would make it at least 2 lanes for the turn section and 3 for the straightaways.

 

[IthacaMatt]

So adding 3 lanes of traffic wouldn't take up more space. They are either going to have to make that off ramp from the current 81 a really tight turn to free up space or get closer to those houses. Plus from the plan set out above, there will have to be some sort of bridge added to get the south bound lanes into the new configuration.

What they are looking at is South State Street as the primary artery that they transition from highway to local traffic. They plan to break it up into 3 different places you would get off, I believe at Brighton, Colvin and Kennedy.

Brighton would be what it is now, and allows you to drive up to Ainsley and Nob Hill, and the South Side/Valley.

Colvin connects you to Manley, South Campus, Nottingham/Drumlins neighborhood.

Kennedy is about 4 blocks away from where traffic gets dumped down on to Adams St., so that would give a better runway to get off the highway for University, hospital and downtown traffic.

It's a pretty good plan. There's no need to add 3 lanes of local traffic. Some improvements to 2 lanes in each direction will be needed in a few places, but there are a lot of open lots on the South Side.

 

[shandeezy7]

The plan is to use State Street between Brighton and Adams for northbound traffic, and exit traffic at 3 separate stop lights. I'm pretty sure that's what I saw.

Southbound, I could be wrong, but I think the traffic ends similarly in stages from the Mall to about Court Street.

There won't be the need for any sound baffling in Syracuse, because you will be taking highway away, not adding it.

Talking about re-configuring the interchange where 481 and 81 currently meet in North Syracuse.

 

[shandeezy7]

So adding 3 lanes of traffic wouldn't take up more space. They are either going to have to make that off ramp from the current 81 a really tight turn to free up space or get closer to those houses. Plus from the plan set out above, there will have to be some sort of bridge added to get the south bound lanes into the new configuration.

Yeah, the diagram shows that the current offramp from 81N to 481N would be moved in tighter in order to accommodate 4 lanes of traffic (2 in each direction) continuing on the newly re-configured I-81. There either won't be 3 lanes at that point of 81, or if there are 3 lanes, the far left lane on 81N and the far right lane on 81S will most likely be exits only onto state route 481.

You're probably right about there having to be a bridge constructed in order to get the southbound lanes of 81 connected there. Don't see any other way around that and surprised it's not mentioned in that diagram.

 

[orangecuse]

So an extra 3 miles on a road that is 65 mph v. one that is 55/45 is 5 minutes slower. You flunked.

 

[FrancoPizza]

The impact on the average commute was shown to increase by about 1.4 miles on city streets. Five minutes, maybe.

Here's a rhetorical question. If you're a commuter who utilizes 81 to get thru the city, and citing the numbers that have been provided, let's say a boulevard will increase your commute time by 5 minutes. Now if traveling 481 will also increase the time by 5 minutes... what's to say that most of the thru traffic won't say Fluck it and just continue through the boulevard? That pattern would be impossible to predict but it should darn well be captured as a variant in those traffic simulation models. Can't have the DOT saying after the fact, "gee uhh we didn't think that was going to happen."

 

[Cuseman78]

Here's a rhetorical question. If you're a commuter who utilizes 81 to get thru the city, and citing the numbers that have been provided, let's say a boulevard will increase your commute time by 5 minutes. Now if traveling 481 will also increase the time by 5 minutes... what's to say that most of the thru traffic won't say Fluck it and just continue through the boulevard? That pattern would be impossible to predict but it should darn well be captured as a variant in those traffic simulation models. Can't have the DOT saying after the fact, "gee uhh we didn't think that was going to happen."

So all things being equal, you think people are still going to choose the route where they would go slower and potentially hit traffic lights as opposed to a highway? C'mon now.

 

[xc84]

Here's a rhetorical question. If you're a commuter who utilizes 81 to get thru the city, and citing the numbers that have been provided, let's say a boulevard will increase your commute time by 5 minutes. Now if traveling 481 will also increase the time by 5 minutes... what's to say that most of the thru traffic won't say Fluck it and just continue through the boulevard? That pattern would be impossible to predict but it should darn well be captured as a variant in those traffic simulation models. Can't have the DOT saying after the fact, "gee uhh we didn't think that was going to happen."

Since 481 is only 3 miles longer than straight 81 now and 481 is 65MPH and 81 is 45 through the city, it won't take an extra 5 minutes.

In any case, there were studies of traffic from and to many places...and increases were about 1-3 minutes depending on the start/end and some go down.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Here's a rhetorical question. If you're a commuter who utilizes 81 to get thru the city, and citing the numbers that have been provided, let's say a boulevard will increase your commute time by 5 minutes. Now if traveling 481 will also increase the time by 5 minutes... what's to say that most of the thru traffic won't say Fluck it and just continue through the boulevard? That pattern would be impossible to predict but it should darn well be captured as a variant in those traffic simulation models. Can't have the DOT saying after the fact, "gee uhh we didn't think that was going to happen."

How much longer will your commute take during the 2-3 years of construction when I-81 is down to just 1 lane? 10 minutes? 20 minutes?

Once you get used to using the I-481 bypass, you will probably continue to do so after the rebuild is completed.