Did anyone notice that we have 10 conference wins?

[longtimefan]

And we lost to GT.
So?

Point.
Head.

 

[orangecuse]

Like I said, Frank hasn't been the same player since he returned. He was terrific last season and was one of our most dependable players.

It's not insane. All of our PGs were injured during the preseason. That set the entire team back. And with Carey struggling, HW would give us the backup PG we're lacking right now.

Actually, Frank has been that same exact player he has always been. We lost 14 games last year, and we lost them in the same manner as we have lost this season, stagnant offense, predictable/easy to defend, inability for our PG to consistently beat/take his defender off the dribble, total discombobulation when facing aggressive/hounding pressure D, lack of a true floor general, etc.

Remember, the staff brought in a 5th year senior in Gillon to run the offense for a reason Frank's soph season. Last year, the staff did the same thing when bringing in Geno Thorpe, remember how he was going to run the show? However, he had that early season ankle injury and then quit because, let's just say, he didn't see eye to eye with JB, so we were stuck with Frank at the PG. JB had no other options last season but Frank...all 40 minutes of him. This year, many thought Carey would take a bunch of Frank's minutes, but instead it has turned out to be Buddy.

 

[Day2]

Actually, Frank has been that same exact player he has always been. We lost 14 games last year, and we lost them in the same manner as we have lost this season, stagnant offense, predictable/easy to defend, inability for our PG to consistently beat/take his defender off the dribble, total discombobulation when facing aggressive/hounding pressure D, lack of a true floor general, etc.

Remember, the staff brought in a 5th year senior in Gillon to run the offense for a reason Frank's soph season. Last year, the staff did the same thing when bringing in Geno Thorpe, remember how he was going to run the show? However, he had that early season ankle injury and then quit because, let's just say, he didn't see eye to eye with JB, so we were stuck with Frank at the PG. JB had no other options last season but Frank...all 40 minutes of him. This year, many thought Carey would take a bunch of Frank's minutes, but instead it has turned out to be Buddy.

Getting a little loosey-goosey with the facts, aren’t you?

 

[kcsu]

If we beat Clemson and if we had beat buffalo and ODU we would be ranked. The early losses are unfortunate and cost us. 11 wins in the ACC regardless of who you play is solid. Franks injury really hurt us way more than we imagine as he hasn't played well at all this season and he was counted on big time. Sid not recovering or bouncing back from Tendinitis has also been a big issue. If Frank hadn't been injured and if Sid had gotten better this team would be much better. Still 11 wins is very solid. Lets see how we do in March as the jury is still out.

 

[orangecuse]

Getting a little loosey-goosey with the facts, aren’t you?

If I am, it's not intentional, but more or less my recollection. Can you tighten up the facts for me?

 

[Day2]

If I am, it's not intentional, but more or less my recollection. Can you tighten up the facts for me?

Yeah, every word you just said about Howard’s junior season was wrong.

 

[sufandu]

Nobody? Are you new here?

Howard Washington had a stroke. Yeah, Frank’s injury was major. He missed the first part of the season - including preseason practices - and hasn’t been the same player since he returned.

The difference is the effect of our injuries have been season long. Duke got their injured guys back after our win and will have Zion back for the tournament. I suspect he could be back by now if they needed him. The Duke that has lost recently will not be the same Duke that is in the tournament. We are exactly what we are.

 

[orangecuse]

Yeah, every word you just said about Howard’s junior season was wrong.

Every word. Ok, so much for trying to have an honest discussion. Go back and look at those games we lost last year, 14 of them. There are a lot of parallels to games in which we have lost this season. And, it all starts at PG, since that is what makes any college team go, especially if that team is having a high degree of success on the court. Interestingly, if we lose to Clemson on the road Saturday (we are underdogs) and lose one game in the ACC tourney and the dance, guess what, we finish with 14 losses again...and, if you care to examine, the parallels will be very similar to last season's.

 

[Day2]

The difference is the effect of our injuries have been season long. Duke got their injured guys back after our win and will have Zion back for the tournament. I suspect he could be back by now if they needed him. The Duke that has lost recently will not be the same Duke that is in the tournament. We are exactly what we are.

Which isn’t who we were expected to be going into the season. That’s the point.

 

[Day2]

Every word. Ok, so much for trying to have an honest discussion. Go back and look at those games we lost last year, 14 of them. There are a lot of parallels to games in which we have lost this season. And, it all starts at PG, since that is what makes any college team go, especially if that team is having a high degree of success on the court. Interestingly, if we lose to Clemson on the road Saturday (we are underdogs) and lose one game in the ACC tourney and the dance, guess what, we finish with 14 losses again...and the parallels will be very similar to last season's.

Sorry, I’m not going to pass up an opportunity to make a Star Wars reference...which you should have picked up on given your avatar.

Howard was a different player last season. Period.

 

[orangecuse]

Sorry, I’m not going to pass up an opportunity to make a Star Wars reference...which you should have picked up on given your avatar.

Howard was a different player last season. Period.

FWIW, I'm not a Star Wars fan, actually, I've never seen any of the flicks. I just thought the avatar was wicked cool when I saw it a few years back.

In regards to Howard, we can simply agree to disagree, even though your "period" proves you're correct. Interestingly enough, Howard stated himself towards the end of December, that he was 100% back and healthy, his words. His physical health has nothing to do with his struggles playing the PG position at his level, but rather the lack of the needed skill set required. Additionally, JB stated after the FSU game that Frank's physical health had nothing to do with being "unable to get by anyone."

 

[sufandu]

Which isn’t who we were expected to be going into the season. That’s the point.

The point is Duke will be at full strength in the tournament, so their recent perfromance can be somewhat discounted. Our performance reflects who we will be. There is no point in referencing the injuries since we are not getting those players back.

 

[shandeezy7]

Sorry, I’m not going to pass up an opportunity to make a Star Wars reference...which you should have picked up on given your avatar.

Howard was a different player last season. Period.

Not really sure how much different he was last year compared to this year. His per 40 stats last year and this year are very similar, as are shooting percentages. I think he just is who he is, which is an unathletic, streaky shooter who is mediocre at best at creating for himself or others.

 

[CorduroyG]

FWIW, I'm not a Star Wars fan, actually, I've never seen any of the flicks. I just thought the avatar was wicked cool when I saw it a few years back.

In regards to Howard, we can simply agree to disagree, even though your "period" proves you're correct. Interestingly enough, Howard stated himself towards the end of December, that he was 100% back and healthy, his words. His physical health has nothing to do with his struggles playing the PG position at his level, but rather the lack of the needed skill set required. Additionally, JB stated after the FSU game that Frank's physical health had nothing to do with being "unable to get by anyone."

frank averaged 14 ppg last year. while he certainly had his struggles and drove us nuts he was still a productive player. this year he has trouble completing a simple pass.hes had a god awful year.

 

[chugg21]

Sorry, I’m not going to pass up an opportunity to make a Star Wars reference...which you should have picked up on given your avatar.

Howard was a different player last season. Period.

Yeah, he shot 37% instead of 35%. The rest of his per 40 mins are pretty darn close outside of an extra bucket per game.

 

[chugg21]

frank averaged 14 ppg last year. while he certainly had his struggles and drove us nuts he was still a productive player. this year he has trouble completing a simple pass.hes had a god awful year.

He averaged 14ppg because he had to play 38.4mpg due to there being no other choice. His assist numbers per 40 are basically the same while his turnovers are actually down 20%. People have fond memories of him last year that aren't accurate. He was a mess last year too that had a few solid games in March. Go re-watch that ACC tourney game against UNC when he went 4-18 from the field with 7 turnovers. He still is what he always has been. Just so happens that we now have an alternative by sliding Tyus over and putting Buddy in.

 

[syrBossHogg]

Actually, Frank has been that same exact player he has always been. We lost 14 games last year, and we lost them in the same manner as we have lost this season, stagnant offense, predictable/easy to defend, inability for our PG to consistently beat/take his defender off the dribble, total discombobulation when facing aggressive/hounding pressure D, lack of a true floor general, etc.

Remember, the staff brought in a 5th year senior in Gillon to run the offense for a reason Frank's soph season. Last year, the staff did the same thing when bringing in Geno Thorpe, remember how he was going to run the show? However, he had that early season ankle injury and then quit because, let's just say, he didn't see eye to eye with JB, so we were stuck with Frank at the PG. JB had no other options last season but Frank...all 40 minutes of him. This year, many thought Carey would take a bunch of Frank's minutes, but instead it has turned out to be Buddy.

Gillion was brought in to be the 3rd guard behind Frank and Tyus, plan was always for Frank to be starting PG that year

 

[CorduroyG]

He averaged 14ppg because he had to play 38.4mpg due to there being no other choice. His assist numbers per 40 are basically the same while his turnovers are actually down 20%. People have fond memories of him last year that aren't accurate. He was a mess last year too that had a few solid games in March. Go re-watch that ACC tourney game against UNC when he went 4-18 from the field with 7 turnovers. He still is what he always has been. Just so happens that we now have an alternative by sliding Tyus over and putting Buddy in.

hes not what hes always been. hes never been this bad. he struggles to complete a clean pass! ive lost count on how many near turnovers hes had cuz 1 of his passes gets deflected or tipped but we maintain possession. he literally cant get by anyone. i didnt watch him last year and think "he doesnt belong on the court". watching him this year i think that every game.

 

[Day2]

The point is Duke will be at full strength in the tournament, so their recent perfromance can be somewhat discounted. Our performance reflects who we will be. There is no point in referencing the injuries since we are not getting those players back.

Context is everything. You replied to a reply about preseason expectations.

 

[sufandu]

Context is everything. You replied to a reply about preseason expectations.

Just went back through all the replies and didn't see anything mentioned about preseason expectations. I suppose I was expected to know it was implied.

 

[orangecuse]

He averaged 14ppg because he had to play 38.4mpg due to there being no other choice. His assist numbers per 40 are basically the same while his turnovers are actually down 20%. People have fond memories of him last year that aren't accurate. He was a mess last year too that had a few solid games in March. Go re-watch that ACC tourney game against UNC when he went 4-18 from the field with 7 turnovers. He still is what he always has been. Just so happens that we now have an alternative by sliding Tyus over and putting Buddy in.

I agree completely with this assessment. JB had no other options last year, Frank played a ton of minutes, on a team that had zero depth. We lost 14 games last year, and if people would just revisit those losses and see where we struggled, it's a direct parallel to this season, immense struggles on offense, difficulty scoring, a lot related to inconsistent play at the PG spot, and total discombobulation with the offense when facing aggressive/hounding in your face D.

Additionally, turnovers do not tell the complete story, as much of the time on offense in these losses we held the ball, pounding it in place for 15 seconds, side to side passing above the 3 point line, etc. Very little north/south movement at all. It is quite interesting as you allude how some have such fond memories, likely as you also allude due to those 3 W's in the tourney. I remember a few times late in games in some of those losses, with the game out of reach, Frank getting a bunch of garbage buckets...which padded his scoring average a bit as well.

 

[orangecuse]

Gillion was brought in to be the 3rd guard behind Frank and Tyus, plan was always for Frank to be starting PG that year

Was he? A 5th year grad transfer brought in to be "behind" our guards? I don't believe that was the case in regards to the PG spot, you'll not get any argument from me in relation to Battle. The PG spot for that season was a big question mark. Frank was a 2G at the prep level, and only played limited action his frosh season. I think Gillon was brought in to see who would win that spot as it was there for the taking. Gillon ultimately won out...isn't that in part why Frank was so allegedly distraught, messing with team camaraderie, recruit visits, etc. to the point where several here were sure he was transferring out after that season?

Last year we brought in another 5th year guard to battle for that position in Geno Thorpe. Many were pretty high on him based on his senior year scoring averages etc. at USF. However, he hurt his ankle in the preseason and then had a falling out with the coach. Afterwards, we were left with only Frank to really run the point.

I'm not making any statement here as fact, it's just my assessment/viewpoint. Maybe, this isn't correct at all.

 

[Day2]

Just went back through all the replies and didn't see anything mentioned about preseason expectations. I suppose I was expected to know it was implied.

Maybe you missed this one:
Did anyone notice that we have 10 conference wins?

 

[Day2]

FWIW, I'm not a Star Wars fan, actually, I've never seen any of the flicks. I just thought the avatar was wicked cool when I saw it a few years back.

In regards to Howard, we can simply agree to disagree, even though your "period" proves you're correct. Interestingly enough, Howard stated himself towards the end of December, that he was 100% back and healthy, his words. His physical health has nothing to do with his struggles playing the PG position at his level, but rather the lack of the needed skill set required. Additionally, JB stated after the FSU game that Frank's physical health had nothing to do with being "unable to get by anyone."

While his defense tends to be overrated in general (I'm looking at you, Jay Bilas), Howard was a better defender last year. He could get by some people last year. Was always good for a shot or two from the elbow and could hit that floating runner. Protected the ball better.

He's struggling physically and mentally this season.

 

[chugg21]

I agree completely with this assessment. JB had no other options last year, Frank played a ton of minutes, on a team that had zero depth. We lost 14 games last year, and if people would just revisit those losses and see where we struggled, it's a direct parallel to this season, immense struggles on offense, difficulty scoring, a lot related to inconsistent play at the PG spot, and total discombobulation with the offense when facing aggressive/hounding in your face D.

Additionally, turnovers do not tell the complete story, as much of the time on offense in these losses we held the ball, pounding it in place for 15 seconds, side to side passing above the 3 point line, etc. Very little north/south movement at all. It is quite interesting as you allude how some have such fond memories, likely as you also allude due to those 3 W's in the tourney. I remember a few times late in games in some of those losses, with the game out of reach, Frank getting a bunch of garbage buckets...which padded his scoring average a bit as well.

Same people that consider last year a success because we made the sweet 16 despite the season being completely miserable.