Does anyone believe that with a new football coach and the current level of talent, that Syracuse could contend for an ACC title? | Page 6 | Syracusefan.com

Does anyone believe that with a new football coach and the current level of talent, that Syracuse could contend for an ACC title?

The coach is the single most important "multidimensional aspect"of a team. The coach is at least 80% of a teams success, maybe more.
Then you don't understand how team sports work if you think coaching is 80% of a team's success.
Talented players win games...period, end of story. A little sports history if you care to read it. Bear Bryant, from Alabama, is considered to be one of the top coaches in football history. Bear coached for much of his career in a system that was segregated. Bear realized that Alabama was missing out on a lot of talented players who were Black and lobbied the school to allow him to recruit Black players and the school said Hell No Bear! So, Bear Bryant started scheduling games against schools like USC, that had talented Black players...and it was the famous loss to USC and Sam Bam Cunningham that gave Bear Bryant the leverage he needed to convince Alabama to allow him to recruit black players. I lived in Alabama up until recently, and there is no fan base that likes winning more than they do. My point in this long dissertation is that a great coach, like Bear Bryant, realized that in order to continue to win in the landscape that he found himself in, he had to recruit better talent, and that talent included Black players. Syracuse, now finds themselves in a difficult place, recruiting is different now that we are in the ACC and with NIL and all of that stuff. It is way more complex than who the coach is..
 
News flash: it’s frickin cold and snowy at OSU, PSU, MSU, etc. That argument blows and doesn’t hold up. Yes, CERTAIN kids won’t go there, but certain kids will.

I’ve always believed that we ARENT THAT PROGRAM. Never have been. Would I take it? Of course.

Every program ebbs and flows to some degree. Alabama has sucked from time to time for instance. We used to have much success with 2-3 star players many of whom were NY or northeast kids. The landscape has changed.

I want competitive football, won more than lost, and done the right way. On occasion we will have good stretches, with a couple of miracle seasons (59, 87), and fall in the 7-5 to 9-3 range. I also feel like we should regularly hold some of the best kickers, punters, and quarterbacks in the country (if they had any brains) so they could pad their stats for the NFL draft by playing 50% of their college career in a controlled environment.

I think the more realistic reality is that we are what we are. We’ve had some success in the past, we play in a stadium that was built larger than we need, and we are dating a girl (ACC) who’s out of our league.
 
Then you don't understand how team sports work if you think coaching is 80% of a team's success.
Talented players win games...period, end of story. A little sports history if you care to read it. Bear Bryant, from Alabama, is considered to be one of the top coaches in football history. Bear coached for much of his career in a system that was segregated. Bear realized that Alabama was missing out on a lot of talented players who were Black and lobbied the school to allow him to recruit Black players and the school said Hell No Bear! So, Bear Bryant started scheduling games against schools like USC, that had talented Black players...and it was the famous loss to USC and Sam Bam Cunningham that gave Bear Bryant the leverage he needed to convince Alabama to allow him to recruit black players. I lived in Alabama up until recently, and there is no fan base that likes winning more than they do. My point in this long dissertation is that a great coach, like Bear Bryant, realized that in order to continue to win in the landscape that he found himself in, he had to recruit better talent, and that talent included Black players. Syracuse, now finds themselves in a difficult place, recruiting is different now that we are in the ACC and with NIL and all of that stuff. It is way more complex than who the coach is..
So what you're saying is the coach was actually more than 80% responsible for Alabama's success? Because without a good coach they wouldn't have the good players. Kind of like the situation Syracuse is in today.
 
News flash: it’s frickin cold and snowy at OSU, PSU, MSU, etc. That argument blows and doesn’t hold up. Yes, CERTAIN kids won’t go there, but certain kids will.

I’ve always believed that we ARENT THAT PROGRAM. Never have been. Would I take it? Of course.

Every program ebbs and flows to some degree. Alabama has sucked from time to time for instance. We used to have much success with 2-3 star players many of whom were NY or northeast kids. The landscape has changed.

I want competitive football, won more than lost, and done the right way. On occasion we will have good stretches, with a couple of miracle seasons (59, 87), and fall in the 7-5 to 9-3 range. I also feel like we should regularly hold some of the best kickers, punters, and quarterbacks in the country (if they had any brains) so they could pad their stats for the NFL draft by playing 50% of their college career in a controlled environment.

I think the more realistic reality is that we are what we are. We’ve had some success in the past, we play in a stadium that was built larger than we need, and we are dating a girl (ACC) who’s out of our league.
I agree with most of your sentiment here, we are who we are! As far as the cold and the snow..it is a serious issue for kids now that we are in the ACC and compete against warm weather schools. The schools you mention, OSU, PSU and MSU all compete against each other and similar cold weather schools. Look at the great Southern Migration...NY, Jersey, New England...all those folks are moving to the ACC footprint schools in NC, SC, and Florida. ...and News Flash: 18 year old kids love seeing half dressed coeds walking the campus almost year round. Visit Clemson on a nice Friday afternoon in October...You might not want to leave...
 
News flash: it’s frickin cold and snowy at OSU, PSU, MSU, etc. That argument blows and doesn’t hold up. Yes, CERTAIN kids won’t go there, but certain kids will.

At OSU, PSU, MSU, etc... their NIL funds will give you a fully loaded SUV for you to use when it's cold and snowy.

At Syracuse, they give you a shovel and a snow brush.
 
I think to fix our program you need a time machine and go back to November 30, 2002, and fire Coach P and the whole staff after going 4-8. We still had name brand at that point and a recent tradition of success. You invest in a good coach and facilities.

Maybe you don't go to the ACC? You try to build the Big East into a decent conference that we usually are at the top of. I don't think ACC wants us to be good. They just want a formerly great program for their top dogs to win against.

Of course none of this is possible, but I don't think us getting back to national prominence is really that much more possible at this point either. I've pretty much reached the point of acceptance I guess. Donovan McNabb isn't walking through that door.
 
? If Urban Meyer said he wanted to resurrect SU FB on his last coaching stop, would the fans accept him and his baggage for the promise of winning FB
I would be ecstatic if we got Meyers but SU would never do what it takes to get him. They are not a player in major college football. They are just pretending.
 
Since joining the ACC we have won something like 30% of our conference games. That says it all.
And we get flat out HAMMERED by the good teams. These games aren’t worth watching. 2016-18 was a fun time - we had an identity and came to play, and had one really good season and pulled a couple upsets and competed well in a number of tough matchups.

2019-present we’re boring and pathetic against anyone good.
 
At OSU, PSU, MSU, etc... their NIL funds will give you a fully loaded SUV for you to use when it's cold and snowy.

At Syracuse, they give you a shovel and a snow brush.
Well…. Even Utah just gave 85 guys a new Dodge Ram.
 
I just don't want to be tied to some mythical number and that means our coach has to stay. 7-5 and our coach stays. Not every season is the same. Sometimes a 5-7 season is a better coaching season than a 7-5 season.

The fact that nobody can say "Dino the head coach is great at this ______ and we can always count on it each and every Saturday" is a bad sign. Like if our offense is great and we are losing shootouts and it's an entertaining brand of football there would be less of an uproar from the fans.
I haven’t seen anyone say he is legitimately a good football coach. The fans wanting him retained are either saying they don’t want the upheaval of removing a head coach, or he’s a good representative of the university, or that he can get us to 6 wins consistently. No one is saying Dino is a great coach and that’s why we should retain him. And that is telling.
 
I have said this multiple times. The recruiting base was ignored under Robinson and Marone was starting to bring it back, but he left. Dino, who I thought was a good offensive mind, did not build on Marone's efforts as he didn't hire coaches with strong ties to the recruiting base and the recruiting base is now gone. Look at 2023 recruiting in the former recruiting base:

Syracuse got:

0 of the top 10 recruits in CT
0 of the top 5 recruits in DC
0 of the top 30 recruits in MD
0 of the top 10 recruits in MA
1 of the top 30 recruits in NJ
2 of the top 10 recruits in NY
0 of the top 50 recruits in OH
0 of the top 30 recruits in PA

Some on the board may disagree, but I think the best recruits Syracuse can get are in the recruiting base and that is how you make Syracuse more competitive with the top ACC schools.
Recruiting your base - especially in NY, PA, and NJ - was how Ciach Mac got SU on the map. That and the new best facility in the Dome. No surprise Narrone followed that winning formula.
 
We aren't going to compete for ACC championships. Maybe with a SR led team and a few breaks we can make the ACC CG, but it won't be often.

We need a hard playing, well coached team that can go .500 in the ACC most years. A team that you can be proud of. Dino cannot give us that.

As to HS recruiting, we need to take a similar approach to Marrone. We need a HC to make connections in the Northeast. There are a lot of overlooked kids that just need to be coached up. Which means you need good assistants who are coaches first and not just recruiters.

For the top kids we can start a relationship to get on their radar, but we will not land them out of HS. Where we might be able to get them is via the portal. If our HC has strong ties to the kid's HS HC, and already has established a casual relationship with the kid, we have a chance to land him.

We are a program that should be in the 6-6 to 8-4 range. The HC isn't going to change that much. The types of kids we can get here isn't going to change much. What can change is how we play in those games. We can have a well coached team with an exciting O that plays hard, or we can have Dino.
 
McNabb had Michael Vick all but signed to take his place. Vick wanted to check with his mother, made a phone call - she wanted him to stay home. If he did what he wanted to do things would have been much different at the time in the SU football program.
And if he had come here the problems with his home boys probably don't happen
Sometimes you need to get away from family to grow up.
 
The thread isn't misguided. The question is just as valid as the questions that you pose. Blaming the Coach is the easiest thing to do. Why do we have such a revolving door of coaches with the same results, if just changing the coach is the solution to winning. The dynamics of recruiting to Syracuse is a multifaceted problem and many Syracuse fans just want to focus on the coach. I am not defending losing, but as someone who has made a career out of creative problem solving, I recognize the multidimensional aspect of the problems that face Syracuse football.

There’s a big difference in the infrastructure at Syracuse when we hired grob/marrone/Shaffer/and even when we first hired dino to today. The foundation of the program is in a much better place. Now we need to bring in a good to great gameday coach who can make the most of the improved situation.
 
Yes, because of the portal. A competent coach would be able to hit the portal hard and get the players needed to get Syracuse to the next level!
Success in the portal isn’t about coach competency it’s about how much NIL money coaches have to offer.

Dino’s successor won’t do any better if he doesn’t have more NIL backing.
 
The dynamics of recruiting to Syracuse is a multifaceted problem and many Syracuse fans just want to focus on the coach. I am not defending losing, but as someone who has made a career out of creative problem solving, I recognize the multidimensional aspect of the problems that face Syracuse football.
I agree. Without question, the issues Syracuse faces are multidimensional and chronic. And yet you post a Yes or No thread title with baked in congruence bias seemingly to support your theory that talent is the singular, primary issue independent, or nearly independent, of the impact of coaching.

Were you truly looking for reasons to be convinced otherwise? Or were you just trying to ferret out those "thinkers" who believe that it is coaching over talent? If it was the latter, you are acting contrary to most of the creative problem solving models I am familiar with.

FWIW, my understanding is that the AD department has analyzed obstacles to success specific to the football program. Obviously, recruiting and keeping talent is VERY high on the list. I would argue it should be #1. But, when you shift from focusing on obstacles to identifying potential solutions then coaching hires, salaries, staff additions, infrastructure, facilities, recruiting budgets, NIL, playing in bowl games, AND revenue (this is why we have a home game in NYC) are ALL part of the equation.
 
Some on the board may disagree, but I think the best recruits Syracuse can get are in the recruiting base and that is how you make Syracuse more competitive with the top ACC schools.
1. Recruit your base well.
2. Be well-coached, give top programs a scare or two, pull an upset or two, get national recognition.
3. Strike while the iron is hot, target the right guys outside your recruiting base (while still maintaining it), hopefully land a couple, and maybe you can bump the program up a level and try to maintain it. If not, you're back on #2 looking for the next opportunity.

The frustrating part here is that it looked like Dino was on Step 2 in 2017 and 2018. But we've gone way backwards since then.

In 2017 we put up a decent showing at LSU, knocked off #2 Clemson, gave then #8 Miami a run on the road and lost by 8, then lost at FSU (down year for them) by 3 on the road. In 2018 we played Clemson tough on the road, got ranked, and won a bowl game.

From 2019 forward, we're 1-12 against ranked teams, outscored 452-190, the lone win is an NC State team that would go on to fall out of the rankings, and we've only come within one score two other times - 2021 vs Wake and 2022 at Clemson... and we've stayed in the bottom quarter of the conference in recruiting.

People overlook the fact that SU in late 80s/90s found inefficiencies to be successful.
And this is the other thing. If you can't recruit at a high enough level overall to compete, lining up to play a traditional offense/defense is lining up to lose. You've got to find your niche. Mobile quarterbacks would be the obvious one, right? They always give you a chance against better competition. Agile offensive line in the screen game is another, some sort of offensive gimmick is another, OC/HC who are great at dialing up trick plays in high leverage spots is another, cranking up the luck factor in high leverage spots by being ultra aggressive on 4th downs is another.

On defense it can be a scheme that caters to the types of recruits you can consistently land (undersized but fast, for example) and will often rely on a coordinator who is great at dialing up pressure or disguising what he's doing to confuse the talented hotshot QBs who haven't seen those looks yet.

You also want a coach who inspires belief in the team, and gets them excited for those spots. I'd rather come out firing away in the first half, going for every 4th and 4 or less, sending blitzes, letting the team know we are playing to win, not playing it safe. If it backfires and you're getting smoked at halftime, so be it - what difference does it make versus playing it safe and losing by 30 anyway? And then you can say, "Alright boys, they got us today," and get backups some snaps and try not to get beat up by a physically inferior team and have that hangover effect.
 
I think the approach Dino took when coming here was the right thing (orange is the new fast) and what we have to do to contend, unless there is a significant influx of cash into our program to help us bring talent in via portal. To be successful, we have to be a niche team. We just can't play the same way as the clemsons, fsu's, and other programs play and expect to win. It's good for maybe 6-7 wins a year, but that's it. Also, we shouldn't consider any qb who isn't dual threat.
 
I don't think you're going to get a great coach AND great recruiter. You probably have to pick one. Then invest in a staff that has strengths in the other area.

Charles Huff is interesting to me. I think even Clay Helton too.
 
People overlook the fact that SU in late 80s/90s found inefficiencies to be successful. Deleone built an offense that worked with athletic/running qbs and a Cheesecake Factory playbook.

That was coaching and a guy who knew route 95, 84, 128, and other back roads of New England where there was less interest from sec and other southern schools

If they switch it up I want someone who knows those roads again. I’ve mentioned Bob Chesney because he’s built holy cross from a bad 1aa team to one that is playoff bound yearly. Not easy. Feels like a dick Mac hire to me. Chesney has a lot of pitino in him and would infuse energy into this thing. We need energy and youth. I think ACC is tough for us but Bob would provide the program w some oomph
I love this
 

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