Does it matter how we win?

[Millhouse]

Between 2003 and 2011 TCU managed to be top 40 in both 7 out of 9 seasons.

How did they do it then?

play in a crappy conference

 

[javadoc]

do we need to visit them? we know what they did. hire air raid coordinators and leave them alone

I think that a conversation between Shafer and Patterson might be instructive. The surface impression I get is that Shafer is a defense-first guy, and the offense needs to "score some points" however that is done. Doesn't care how, to the point of being disinterested. It seems like Patterson had an "Aha!" moment, and I wish he could communicate that to Shafer.

 

[Millhouse]

I think that a conversation between Shafer and Patterson might be instructive. The surface impression I get is that Shafer is a defense-first guy, and the offense needs to "score some points" however that is done. Doesn't care how, to the point of being disinterested. It seems like Patterson had an "Aha!" moment, and I wish he could communicate that to Shafer.

teams that are interested in how it's done score more than teams that are disinterested

patterson asked himself what offense do i hate facing and hired guys he didn't know that well to run that offense

shafer asks himself who do i know from western michigan?

 

[javadoc]

teams that are interested in how it's done score more than teams that are disinterested

patterson asked himself what offense do i hate facing and hired guys he didn't know that well to run that offense

shafer asks himself who do i know from western michigan?

Generally agree. The great and ironic thing about that approach is it is exactly the approach Marrone took when hiring Shafer - from his own mouth.

 

[Scooch]

Every time we try to install exciting football, we fail. Unless we are hiring Chip Kelly, Helfrich, Briles, Malzahn or some such offensive guru we should just table this "exciting" offensive football talk.

Furthermore, without a big name HC or OC like the above, we have also not shown the ability to recruit the athletes it takes to execute "exciting" offensive football. Even the Crack Recruiter McF*** It that got Minnesota to a ranked class in the past couldn't do it here.

Talking about "sizzle" is fine, executing is a completely, totally different animal altogether.

I would prefer just to win and our Defensive style of play is always exciting. There's your "sizzle".

To answer Crusty's question, it makes no difference whatsoever what scheme we play to me as long as that play is mean, nasty and more importantly winning football.

Forget "exciting", that was not the key word.

"High scoring" is the key. I don't care how we do it, but we need to be high scoring. We haven't been high scoring, save for 7 games in 2012, for 16 freakin' years.

 

[RMH44]

teams that are interested in how it's done score more than teams that are disinterested

patterson asked himself what offense do i hate facing and hired guys he didn't know that well to run that offense

shafer asks himself who do i know from western michigan?

Selective memory?

In his first interview as head coach, SS said exactly what you profess are Patterson's beliefs. He stated that the most difficult offenses to prepare for are the ones that "play fast". As it turns out, he hired the wrong guy to run the offense.

 

[bcubs9497]

That's what you get for interrupting their 3-way circle jerk ;-)

:rolling:

So true.

 

[Chip]

Selective memory?

In his first interview as head coach, SS said exactly what you profess are Patterson's beliefs. He stated that the most difficult offenses to prepare for are the ones that "play fast". As it turns out, he hired the wrong guy to run the offense.

So the question to him now with this OC change is, do you still plan to go in that direction or do you think it's too big of a risk. No one knows if Lester's new O will play fast, so it's probably a fair question.

 

[RMH44]

So the question to him now with this OC change is, do you still plan to go in that direction or do you think it's too big of a risk. No one knows if Lester's new O will play fast, so it's probably a fair question.

That is absolutely a fair question.

If I had to guess, they still play fast. I think that two of the advantages of the base 12 personnel package are the mismatches it creates and how it limits the opponents DC substitution options. To me...it's a far better fit for our roster than running a spread-style offense.

For the record, NFL teams that employ the "12 personnel" package pass the ball over 47% of the time on first down. IMO, we'll be a power running team that passes the ball close to 50% of the time.

 

[Millhouse]

Selective memory?

In his first interview as head coach, SS said exactly what you profess are Patterson's beliefs. He stated that the most difficult offenses to prepare for are the ones that "play fast". As it turns out, he hired the wrong guy to run the offense.

so why are they changing the whole offense then if it was just a matter of hiring the wrong guy to run the offense he prefers

 

[RMH44]

so why are they changing the whole offense then if it was just a matter of hiring the wrong guy to run the offense he prefers

Umm...HCSS also said that he didn't care what offense McDonald ran as long as he "played fast". Reading between the lines, playing fast was the one mandate he gave McDonald. In other words, as HCSS has stated many times, he lets his coaches coach. In this case, it bit him in the arse.

IMO, we'll still be playing fast using a different system.

 

[Millhouse]

Umm...HCSS also said that he didn't care what offense McDonald ran as long as he "played fast". Reading between the lines, playing fast was the one mandate he gave McDonald. In other words, as HCSS has stated many times, he lets his coaches coach. In this case, it bit him in the arse.

IMO, we'll still be playing fast using a different system.

Aye yi yi

if all you care about is playing fast, then you're not thinking it through very well

patterson could've kept his old offense and snapped the ball faster.

fast is not an offense. patterson and shafer aren't the same here

patterson hired people to run an offense he wanted then left them alone. shafer hires his friends to run something fast, whatever it is. ok

 

[TheCusian]

Aye yi yi if all you care about is playing fast, then you're not thinking it through very well patterson could've kept his old offense and snapped the ball faster. fast is not an offense. patterson and shafer aren't the same here patterson hired people to run an offense he wanted then left them alone. shafer hires his friends to run something fast, whatever it is. ok

In fairness it took Patterson like 5 years to "get it"...

 

[Scooch]

Marrone said he wanted to play fast too. He rarely did.

Coaches say lots of things.

 

[kcsu]

Playing fast has nothing to do with the O that you run. Doug played fast with a very simplified O and it worked. Lombardi preached perfection over complexity. You do not need a zillion plays and formations to run a great O. Actually the simplier O seem to do better as the kids get to think less and play fast. It was obvious that what George put in place had everyone confused and more worried about the play than actually executing. Hot mess times 10. Going forward i think you are going to see a huge improvement. Lester is light years ahead of George in my book not even close from a coaching stand point.

 

[Millhouse]

In fairness it took Patterson like 5 years to "get it"...

it took 2 years in the big 12. prior to that, they dominated the mountain west so how much soul searching did he need to do?

 

[OrangePA]

Throw the ball 25-30 times a game.

That's fine with me.

 

[RMH44]

Aye yi yi

if all you care about is playing fast, then you're not thinking it through very well

patterson could've kept his old offense and snapped the ball faster.

fast is not an offense. patterson and shafer aren't the same here

patterson hired people to run an offense he wanted then left them alone. shafer hires his friends to run something fast, whatever it is. ok

Marrone played fast in 2012...a decision that was made after the Spring Game. Same offense...increased speed and much better production. Any system can be played fast if done properly.

Since, as always, you know best...please describe the offense you think would work best for SU with it's current roster.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Therein lies the problem - it's not. A lot of coaches think that punting in certain situations is straightforward. We see data cited here to analyze punting decisions, where it cuts against the "gut feeling" that most coaches seem to have. Absent that data, what do you really know about the total analysis?

You said, "All of the things that benefit the defense ... also benefit the offense so that's a wash." That is not straightforward. It may very well benefit one more than the other. It may benefit one style of offense, or defense, more than others.

Imagine a DB covering a receiver. The receiver knows which way he is going to run and when he will cut or fake. The DB needs to be ready to react, regardless of which way his body is moving, so footing seems more important to him than to the WR, IMO. The WR might slip, but it's easier for him to prepare his body for the cut he wants to make, because he knows when he will do it. Thus, it seems to me that DB's benefit more from controlled conditions than WR's do. I don't have numbers to back that up, but it seems plausible.

How much would an option-based run offense benefit from controlled conditions, versus running on a rainy or icy field?

I would agree with the generic statement that "everyone plays better" in a controlled environment. Who gets the most marginal increase in performance? That is not a question with a simple and obvious answer, IMO.

Nothing related to field conditions makes defense less reactive. It is reactive by nature.

 

[TheCusian]

Nothing related to field conditions makes defense less reactive. It is reactive by nature.

Well sure - defense is always reactive - but reaction time is hampered by field conditions. It's been in Madden since the 90's or something.

 

[RMH44]

Throw the ball 25-30 times a game.

That's fine with me.

Fine with me also, with one caveat...that it's done by design and contributes to winning games.

I'd hate to have to throw it 25 or more times a game because we're always behind ;-)

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Well sure - defense is always reactive - but reaction time is hampered by field conditions. It's been in Madden since the 90's or something.

Ugh, the movement of the offensive players is hampered by the field conditions too, they just know where they're trying to go.

 

[Millhouse]

Marrone played fast in 2012...a decision that was made after the Spring Game. Same offense...increased speed and much better production. Any system can be played fast if done properly.

Since, as always, you know best...please describe the offense you think would work best for SU with it's current roster.

I don't give a about the current roster. i don't care if we suck for a year. we usually suck anyway. if you stink and are worried about your current roster, you're never going to do what you want to do

shotgun spread no huddle one back offense with 3 (if we have a WR in a TE's body like Texas Tech has) or 4 WR. leach has gone off the rails trying to continue to be different from everyone that copied him but i still like the air raid as done at TCU, aTm, even WVU, and oklahoma state most years

 

[Millhouse]

Nothing related to field conditions makes defense less reactive. It is reactive by nature.

we know that qbs throw for more yards per attempt in domes. so javadoc needs to show that defenses defend the run better in domes for it to be a wash. there's no reason to think that

http://archive.advancedfootballanalytics.com/2012/01/weather-effects-on-passing.html

if teams run more when the weather is bad, that must mean they throw more when the weather is good

the weather is good for SU more than other northeast teams. we should throw more than other northeast teams. but #hardnose

 

[Millhouse]

Throw the ball 25-30 times a game.

That's fine with me.

Auburn threw the ball 25 times a game last year. They were 115th in the country in attempts per game

Miami threw 30 times a game last year, they were 84th.

Dome teams throw the ball better than non dome teams. we should throw more than 25-30