Dome Renovation

[Ottoble]

Except for the fact that it would sink an inch per year

Yup how do 220 ft long piles sound for expenses

 

[Ottoble]

I live in CNY and do go there. They have lost significant tenants over the last few years and traffic isn't near where they anticipated. Their theory for the addition is on the verge of failure as well.

To be clear, Destiny won't die (I may have mischaracterized that a bit). It will be there, but it is not nearly the regional/national attraction it claimed it would become. Basing a decision like a Dome around this facility, in the face of its potential future and market dynamics that are really working against it, would be foolish.

Imho I think the site next to Erie blvd on university that they were talking about with the state was the best Ive heard right between campus and downtown without being completely in the way of everything else. Piles possible need there too per Retro44 but much smaller than near destiny

 

[HtownOrange]

There is a different way of looking at corporate responsibility, which was enunciated, for example, by Robert Wood Johnson, founder of Johnson & Johnson, one of this country's enduring corporations. His "credo" designated 5 groups to be served: Customers were first, workers second, managers third, and communities fourth. Shareholders were the "fifth and last responsibility of the company".

A more recent example from Herb Kelleher, former CEO, Southwest Airlines (another fairly successful company). He stated "Your employees come first. And if you treat your employees right, guess what? Your customers come back, and that makes your shareholders happy."

The whole concept of "shareholder hegemony" has gained prominence only since the '70's.

You are addressing a management philosophy while I was discussing a legal concept. While I agree in sentiment and in structure of the philosophy, it remains a fiduciary duty to manage on behalf of the owners. If the owners/shareholders wanted Carrier to stay in Syracuse more than their desire to earn profit from their stock, then Carrier would have stayed in Syracuse. As many multinationals are largely held by institutional investors, there lacks a tie to community and there exists a more profit centered goal.

Conversely, one can argue that the Syracuse labor market has priced itself out of competition and they have breached their duty to Carrier and the managers. I don't hold this position, but it is an argument and it holds some water, especially with shareholders with no ties to Syracuse. Additionally, who is to say that the company will not have their new employees' interests at heart (just an argument, not my position in the least).

Recall that I began my comment with "Let's remove sentimentality."

 

[OttoMets]

If you think Destiny is a dying mall you obviously don't live here. It may seem to be dying at 1pm Tuesday but go by there on a weekend or 7pm any day and you'll see full or near full parking lots.

There might be a lot of people there, but it's not doing well financially. A lot of new tenants are there under extremely favorable lease agreements (and even some of those have defaulted). When those terms come up, there's likely to be an exodus of newer national tenants.

 

[OttoMets]

There is a different way of looking at corporate responsibility, which was enunciated, for example, by Robert Wood Johnson, founder of Johnson & Johnson, one of this country's enduring corporations. His "credo" designated 5 groups to be served: Customers were first, workers second, managers third, and communities fourth. Shareholders were the "fifth and last responsibility of the company".

A more recent example from Herb Kelleher, former CEO, Southwest Airlines (another fairly successful company). He stated "Your employees come first. And if you treat your employees right, guess what? Your customers come back, and that makes your shareholders happy."

The whole concept of "shareholder hegemony" has gained prominence only since the '70's.

Someone's been reading James Surowiecki lately.

And, yes, I couldn't agree more.

 

[TexanMark]

There exists a fiduciary duty to act in the best interest of their owners (shareholders). There is no law prohibiting locals from buying up Carrier stock and reversing the actions, but to date, that has not been done. Customers can only vote with their feet (wallets). In this case, if all of CNY quit buying Carrier units, it would not seriously impact the company and may only help to drive the wedge deeper between the corporation and city.

That in no way prohibits SU from obtaining another AC supplier and adding the comment to their marketing. Hopefully, the modifications are sufficient for eliminating Carrier's naming rights, only time will tell.

For the record, I do not support the Carrier decision, only providing analysis. I want Syracuse to thrive, it is my hometown and I will love the place.

While true...I just hate these corporations that are manipulated by CEOs and Corporate Raiders who only have have self interest in mind. How a CEO is worth $100M+ is beyond me...when they shutter a factor to save a smaller amount of money. A ton of mediocre CEOs have been fleecing companies for decades.

 

[FrancoPizza]

There might be a lot of people there, but it's not doing well financially. A lot of new tenants are there under extremely favorable lease agreements (and even some of those have defaulted). When those terms come up, there's likely to be an exodus of newer national tenants.

And you know this how? Terms of lease agreements are closely guarded by both parties. If you're trying to read between the lines because of statements made by struggling tenants who were ultimately sued by the landlord (e.g. IHOP, Toby Keith's), that's a one-sided view of things. Not every tenant is going to be successful. Even successful malls have turnover. You can argue that the expansion was too big for its britches once the economy tanked, but that's a different argument than the one you're making. The turnover rate was naturally going to be higher since they have a lot of new space to fill and because they are more or less experimenting with new retail concepts. The new entertainment and restaurants have added great value to the mall's portfolio if you ask me... and they are in talks with another major attraction that would take upwards of 60,000 square feet in the Canyon. Now I'm sure the outlet strategy isn't meeting projections, but you'd also have to be naive to take those projections at face value. And seeing as I'm not a woman, I could care less about outlets. Most malls are over-saturated with retail anyway... and the ones that survive and thrive are the ones that recognize and stay ahead of the trends toward diversification. With the Inner Harbor development and a possible future hotel connected to the mall, I'd say its outlook has a lot more upside than you're forecasting.

 

[TexanMark]

Imho I think the site next to Erie blvd on university that they were talking about with the state was the best Ive heard right between campus and downtown without being completely in the way of everything else. Piles possible need there too per Retro44 but much smaller than near destiny

Parking is problematic there...but I think there could be some solutions. I thought the spot had potential but hasn't that ship sailed?

 

[SU68]

While true...I just hate these corporations that are manipulated by CEOs and Corporate Raiders who only have have self interest in mind. How a CEO is worth $100M+ is beyond me...when they shutter a factor to save a smaller amount of money. A ton of mediocre CEOs have been fleecing companies for decades.

Everyone apparently believes that Carrier is an independent, locally-run American company with executives that have ties to the area. NOT SO FAST! Carrier is now a subsidiary of the multi-national United Technologies Corporation (UTC) which also owns UTC Aerospace Systems, Otis Elevator Company, and Pratt & Whitney. It's unrealistic to think that they give a damn about social responsibility.

 

[xc84]

52 pages of posts on this thread

Everyone apparently believes that Carrier is an independent, locally-run American company with executives that have ties to the area. NOT SO FAST! Carrier is now a subsidiary of the multi-national United Technologies Corporation (UTC) which also owns UTC Aerospace Systems, Otis Elevator Company, and Pratt & Whitney. It's unrealistic to think that they give a damn about social responsibility.

I don't think Mark's comments were about social responsibility. They were actually pointing out how shareholders get screwed by crappy CEOs who manipulate compensation to reward themselves no mater what happens to the company. This means the money that should be the shareholders' goes to a CEO and other executives.

 

[Toga]

While true...I just hate these corporations that are manipulated by CEOs and Corporate Raiders who only have have self interest in mind. How a CEO is worth $100M+ is beyond me...when they shutter a factor to save a smaller amount of money. A ton of mediocre CEOs have been fleecing companies for decades.

Preach it!

 

[HtownOrange]

While true...I just hate these corporations that are manipulated by CEOs and Corporate Raiders who only have have self interest in mind. How a CEO is worth $100M+ is beyond me...when they shutter a factor to save a smaller amount of money. A ton of mediocre CEOs have been fleecing companies for decades.

I agree. I offered my analysis purely from a legal, sanitized, emotionless perspective. As I said, I love Syracuse and hate that Carrier is moving away. I hated that GE left...and everyone else.

If had my way, corporations would be more closely held and the community would be larger investors in these corporations. This would cause a lot more reflection on a major move before shipping everything to Mexico, Asia or another developing country. We are all removed from decision making, though over half of us are invested with, with the giant funds controlling shares for individuals across the country who only seek to maximize gain, usually in the short run without understanding, or caring about, the long term impact.

 

[Alsacs]

So can someone answer this question why the Renovation project get delayed? It was being used as a reason to keep SS for another year. That we didn't want a new HC having to have their start marred with a renovation. Did the decision by Coyle to make a move on SS basically force the project announcement to be delayed one year?

If not then the whole idea of SS just coming back because of the project seems like a talking point used as a justification to keep the status quo. As a new HC and staff costing another 5-8 million dollars should not be reason for delaying an expensive renovation project.

 

[TexanMark]

What I hate is our industrial capacity is being moved offshore...if we ever get in a huge World War against Asia (i.e. China) we are screwed.

All being done for cheap TVs, AC's and Cars.

 

[xc84]

So can someone answer this question why the Renovation project get delayed? It was being used as a reason to keep SS for another year. That we didn't want a new HC having to have their start marred with a renovation. Did the decision by Coyle to make a move on SS basically force the project announcement to be delayed one year?

If not then the whole idea of SS just coming back because of the project seems like a talking point used as a justification to keep the status quo. As a new HC and staff costing another 5-8 million dollars should not be reason for delaying an expensive renovation project.

The university has officially said that they would make a decision by the end of the 2016 academic year. This has been a consistent statement. There has been no delay. We now have 66 pages of comments in this thread with nothing new in them.

 

[CuseLegacy]

So can someone answer this question why the Renovation project get delayed? It was being used as a reason to keep SS for another year. That we didn't want a new HC having to have their start marred with a renovation. Did the decision by Coyle to make a move on SS basically force the project announcement to be delayed one year?

If not then the whole idea of SS just coming back because of the project seems like a talking point used as a justification to keep the status quo. As a new HC and staff costing another 5-8 million dollars should not be reason for delaying an expensive renovation project.

This may sound crazy, it does to me, but I have heard it from several people. Some of the indecision on the renovation has to do with the aesthetics of a renovation to the Dome especially with a major landscaping project being approved.

 

[Alsacs]

Interesting. I do think atleast we will get a new cover to the Dome in a renovation.

I just wonder why the delay in announcing as 5-8 million dollars in a new coaching staff is peanuts to the cost of a true renovation.

If they just go for the cover then the delay makes sense.

 

[TheCusian]

Interesting. I do think atleast we will get a new cover to the Dome in a renovation. I just wonder why the delay in announcing as 5-8 million dollars in a new coaching staff is peanuts to the cost of a true renovation. If they just go for the cover then the delay makes sense.

Could be they thought they'd have a decision by now or more of a direction. Or could all of been a bunch of smoke.

Water or smoke under the bridge now

 

[IthacaMatt]

What about SU at MSG in 1996?

It was at the Meadowlands

 

[SUFaninNJ]

So, no update on Dome renovations then?!

 

[reedny]

Interesting. I do think atleast we will get a new cover to the Dome in a renovation.

I just wonder why the delay in announcing as 5-8 million dollars in a new coaching staff is peanuts to the cost of a true renovation.

If they just go for the cover then the delay makes sense.

I don't see this. The Dome's 35+ years old. It's still a great facility, but it's looking tired. The concourses are crowded and the place has a concrete feel. Food options are limited, boxes and seating in general need updating, etc, etc.. I can't imagine them just re-roofing the facility when they've engaged a slew of internationally respected consultants and designers to do a campus master plan and all the rest. The trajectory seems (to me) to be towards a full re-do, which is what we (and the FB program) need.

 

[reedny]

If you have that train of thought...then the open land near Destiny would be a no brainer.

Agree. And honestly, (other than parking) I don't understand the desire to build something near a local Mall. I know there are some HUGE SU fans that want this, and that's understandable if you live locally. But I can't imagine giving up the biggest asset that SU has ... an on-campus Dome'd facility impervious to weather ... so the team can get bussed out to a mall to play at some multi-purpose field house financed by New York State. Not only would we have to give up massive amounts of control (sharing the facility with semi-pro sports, all kinds of City/regional events), we'd be giving up the most iconic symbol of our sports identity that (once redone) is just waiting to explode for higher level recruits.

I don't see it.

 

[jr4750]

Agree. And honestly, (other than parking) I don't understand the desire to build something near a local Mall. I know there are some HUGE SU fans that want this, and that's understandable if you live locally. But I can't imagine giving up the biggest asset that SU has ... an on-campus Dome'd facility impervious to weather ... so the team can get bussed out to a mall to play at some multi-purpose field house financed by New York State. Not only would we have to give up massive amounts of control (sharing the facility with semi-pro sports, all kinds of City/regional events), we'd be giving up the most iconic symbol of our sports identity that (once redone) is just waiting to explode for higher level recruits.

I don't see it.

Yes yes yes!

 

[shandeezy7]

Agree. And honestly, (other than parking) I don't understand the desire to build something near a local Mall. I know there are some HUGE SU fans that want this, and that's understandable if you live locally. But I can't imagine giving up the biggest asset that SU has ... an on-campus Dome'd facility impervious to weather ... so the team can get bussed out to a mall to play at some multi-purpose field house financed by New York State. Not only would we have to give up massive amounts of control (sharing the facility with semi-pro sports, all kinds of City/regional events), we'd be giving up the most iconic symbol of our sports identity that (once redone) is just waiting to explode for higher level recruits.

I don't see it.

At this point, I don't really have a strong opinion on either (new stadium located elsewhere or a major renovation). I think either option would be of great benefit to the football and basketball programs going forward. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the Dome, but I'll be happy with either option coming to fruition.

 

[TexanMark]

The biggest issue IMHO is the disruption of a redo of the Dome to the campus and the sports teams. Basketball is the biggest disruption...lacrosse the least. The issue of using huge cranes means at least one year of sports is disrupted.

Realistically, the school should probably wait until the I-81 decision is made. A lot of options for the stadium and future growth of the campus evolves around that decision.