Donnie Freeman injures foot

[Jasoncuse]

ROTFLMAO!!!!

'Red won 20 games in his 1st year!!' is the modern version of 'We made the final 4 and 2 sweet 16's in a 6 year stretch' when it was obvious our program was fading quickly.

 

[RF2044]

Personally, after 2016 is where I draw the demarcation line between "great program" and "systemic decline".

The 2015-16 team was, IMHO, a very good team that underachieved in the regular season. Some of that may have been because Hopkins coached 9 games to a lousy 4-5 clip.

It was after that season that the inarguable decline began. So I don't lump, say, the 2021 sweet 16 in with the 2016 final 4. They were in distinctly different eras IMHO.

Agree 1000%.

That was the clear line of demarcation. And agree about that '16 team -- if JB doesn't "sit" a few games, we probably aren't on the bubble, and that team plays to it's proper seeding.

Every year beyond that has been part of the tangible decline, with some performing slightly better than others due to personnel, and several not coming class to qualifying for postseason play.

The data also supports that split -- the first 38 years, JB won nearly 75% of his games. The last 8, he won closer to 55%, and was .500 in ACC league play.

From that standpoint, the 2016 F4 may as well have been a lifetime ago.

 

[Irishsecra1]

Happy to be here is not the goal for a program like Syracuse. I'm sure that there probably about 300 of them. Teams like Loyola of Illinois. We are not them. 150-ish teams have never been ranked. ever. in their history.

The All-Time AP Poll

Eli Powell’s all-time men’s basketball program ranking based on the AP Poll

elipowell.com

How about teams like Ohio State? In the last 9 years, they have made the NCAA tournament 4 times. Lost in the first round once, lost in the second round 3 times.

I am not referring to the perennial also rans.

Even Michigan State has only made one final four and one sweet sixteen in the last nine years.
They make the tournament usually but often lose in the first or second round.
At least we play above our heads when we get there.

Now, do we stink this year. Absolutely.
But that doesn't take away from our other accomplishments in the past 8 years.

 

[Red2003]

Personally, after 2016 is where I draw the demarcation line between "great program" and "systemic decline".

The 2015-16 team was, IMHO, a very good team that underachieved in the regular season. Some of that may have been because Hopkins coached 9 games to a lousy 4-5 clip.

It was after that season that the inarguable decline began. So I don't lump, say, the 2021 sweet 16 in with the 2016 final 4. They were in distinctly different eras IMHO.

Me too Scooch! I’m gonna remember that name. It’s what my dog does when he has an itchy butt so I’ll be able to remember.

 

[Scooch]

But that doesn't take away from our other accomplishments in the past 8 years.

We have two accomplishments post-2016. Two sweet sixteens. That's the list.

We haven't finished a season ranked.
We haven't won a conference title.
Hell, we haven't finished more than 2 games over .500 in conference.
We have 3 tourney appearances.

 

[kingtidge]

Back to Donnie...

This situation is weird.

• the program releases a statement after the injury that he is day-to-day (imminent return)
• 2 weeks and 4 games later, he still hasn't played and Red says he's still in recovery and not putting any weight on the leg
• Red also says it's up to Donnie and his camp when he'll return

That last bullet is ominous, as it indicates the team doctors are not making that call and donnie and his camp are.

Also, if he sustained an season-ending injury and is out for the year, why wouldn't they just say that?

Something doesn't add up.

 

[oldpinepoint]

We have two accomplishments post-2016. Two sweet sixteens. That's the list.

We haven't finished a season ranked.
We haven't won a conference title.
Hell, we haven't finished more than 2 games over .500 in conference.
We have 3 tourney appearances.

Definition of average to below average in that timeframe.

 

[Fly Rodder]

That is excellent.

Yeah, note that of the top-20 teams all time, only Syracuse and Georgetown (*spit*) haven't been ranked in the last 6 seasons. And if you extend to the top-50 teams of all time, we only add seven more teams: Notre Dame, Wake Forest, UNLV, Utah, Stanford, Vanderbilt and DePaul.

 

[Red2003]

We have two accomplishments post-2016. Two sweet sixteens. That's the list.

We haven't finished a season ranked.
We haven't won a conference title.
Hell, we haven't finished more than 2 games over .500 in conference.
We have 3 tourney appearances.

I thought the win over UNC last year was possibly a turning point then immediately we lost to Ga Tech right away and have not beat a quality opponent since then. I think that was by far our best win in forever.

So yea there’s nothing to really show for a long time.

 

[phil77]

Back to Donnie...

This situation is weird.

• the program releases a statement after the injury that he is day-to-day (imminent return)
• 2 weeks and 4 games later, he still hasn't played and Red says he's still in recovery and not putting any weight on the leg
• Red also says it's up to Donnie and his camp when he'll return

If he sustained an season-ending injury and is out for the year, why wouldn't they just say that?

Something doesn't add up.

I think someone nailed it earlier it is a pain tolerance thing. They guessed he has a hairline or multiple hairline fractures in his foot. This is probably why as the game goes on he starts running with that hitch/limp thing he does.

So all things could be true at this point. He can't put any weight on it without pain. And it is up to his camp if he wants to play through the pain or shut it down for the season and let it heal. Playing on it probably will not make it worse but it will never truly heal while playing on it.

 

[kingtidge]

I think someone nailed it earlier it is a pain tolerance thing. They guessed he has a hairline or multiple hairline fractures in his foot. This is probably why as the game goes on he starts running with that hitch/limp thing he does.

So all things good be true at this point. He can't put any weight on it without pain. And it is up to his camp if he wants to play through the pain or shut it down for the season and let it heal. Playing on it probably will not make it worse but it will never truly heal while playing on it.

OK, that's something they could say at least that makes sense.

I just don't understand all the vagueness around this. It has not been communicated well, that is for sure.

 

[tbonezone]

So yea there’s nothing to really show for a long time.

i don't believe there's another program in the country that FEARS us. if anything we've become easy Upsets.

 

[Red2003]

I think someone nailed it earlier it is a pain tolerance thing. They guessed he has a hairline or multiple hairline fractures in his foot. This is probably why as the game goes on he starts running with that hitch/limp thing he does.

So all things good be true at this point. He can't put any weight on it without pain. And it is up to his camp if he wants to play through the pain or shut it down for the season and let it heal. Playing on it probably will not make it worse but it will never truly heal while playing on it.

Agree. Personally I think he’s waiting for Duke. And If he doesn’t play that game with a national spotlight I don’t think we’ll see him again.

Having said that I also doubt he plays the Duke game if he’s not 100% so seems like it’s a lot of probably No.

Just a comment too. Autry is really bad at press conferences and media. This off-season someone needs to sit down with him and get that straightened out. He gives just bad responses when he shouldn’t say anything and then doesn’t say anything when he should give more thought out responses.

Hell Fran Brown has never been even a Coordinator and he got up at the podium day 1 was confident and demanded respect. Autry was pretty much the opposite.

 

[MSOrange]

Agree 1000%.

That was the clear line of demarcation. And agree about that '16 team -- if JB doesn't "sit" a few games, we probably aren't on the bubble, and that team plays to it's proper seeding.

Every year beyond that has been part of the tangible decline, with some performing slightly better than others due to personnel, and several not coming class to qualifying for postseason play.

The data also supports that split -- the first 38 years, JB won nearly 75% of his games. The last 8, he won closer to 55%, and was .500 in ACC league play.

From that standpoint, the 2016 F4 may as well have been a lifetime ago.

Thanks for the stats as hard as they may be to read. I love what JB did over many years, but I don't think many of us have a job where we can be 20% less successful than we used to be over a stretch of several years and the reaction is "Nothing to see here."

 

[RF2044]

We have two accomplishments post-2016. Two sweet sixteens. That's the list.

We haven't finished a season ranked.
We haven't won a conference title.
Hell, we haven't finished more than 2 games over .500 in conference.
We have 3 tourney appearances.

Sobering.

The thing about 2016, I think, that often gets lost in the discussion is that 2016 happened on the tail end of the program having a resurgent period of sustained excellence.

• We were a #1 ranked / #1 seed in 2010.
• We only lost 1 regular season game in 2012, en route to an extended #1 ranking / being a #1 seed again.
• We went to the Final Four in 2013
• We started out 25-0 in 2014, with an extended #1 ranking [even though we faded, and the team was flawed, it felt like an extension of the previous years' success].
• 2015 was a lost year -- we were down, but the NCAA investigation led to us self-banning.
• 2016, we were up and down, but still made the F4.

So, the NCAA stuff felt like an outlier blip [at the time], which seemed "supported" by us bouncing back the next year and STILL made the Final Four. It was something that the fanbase could rally around, and a sign that we might not experience the drop off that the NCAA sanctions / scholarship restrictions implied. Back then, it felt like we'd already bottomed out, and STILL made the Final Four.

Unfortunately, in actuality, it was the beginning of the decline. The next few years had limited depth, due to the scholarship restrictions. The talent level dipped [Battle, Hughes, Buddy, and a bunch of pretty average supporting cast otherwise]. We got ransacked by injuries. And Boeheim lost a little off his fastball with respect to recruiting.

Lots of reasons for the decline, but I associated 2016 with the preceding era, more than the decline. That was the tipping point, after which things were not the same afterwards.

None of which has anything to do with your post, Scooch -- just thinking about this aloud using your post to think it out.

 

[djcon57]

Personally, after 2016 is where I draw the demarcation line between "great program" and "systemic decline".

The 2015-16 team was, IMHO, a very good team that underachieved in the regular season. Some of that may have been because Hopkins coached 9 games to a lousy 4-5 clip.

It was after that season that the inarguable decline began. So I don't lump, say, the 2021 sweet 16 in with the 2016 final 4. They were in distinctly different eras IMHO.

I was at Atlantis and watched that team up close.

That team vs the rest of our teams up to today. Not close, imo.

2016 was a VERY good team despite the seed.

The sweet 16 runs we had since then were we snuck in and had a couple good games.
Michigan State missed every open 3 pt shot possible one year and then Buddy basically carried us to the sweet 16

 

[Scooch]

Sobering.

The thing about 2016, I think, that often gets lost in the discussion is that 2016 happened on the tail end of the program having a resurgent period of sustained excellence.

• We were a #1 ranked / #1 seed in 2010.
• We only lost 1 regular season game in 2012, en route to an extended #1 ranking / being a #1 seed again.
• We went to the Final Four in 2013
• We started out 25-0 in 2014, with an extended #1 ranking [even though we faded, and the team was flawed, it felt like an extension of the previous years' success].
• 2015 was a lost year -- we were down, but the NCAA investigation led to us self-banning.
• 2016, we were up and down, but still made the F4.

So, the NCAA stuff was a blip, and we bounced back the next year and STILL made the Final Four. It was something that the fanbase could rally around, and a sign that we might not experience the drop off that the scholarship restrictions implied.

Unfortunately, it was the beginning of the decline. The next few years had limited depth, due to the scholarship restrictions. The talent level dipped [Battle, Hughes, Buddy, and a bunch of pretty average supporting cast otherwise]. We got ransacked by injuries. And Boeheim lost a little off his fastball with respect to recruiting.

Lots of reasons for the decline, but I associated 2016 with the preceding era, more than the decline. That was the tipping point, after which things were not the same afterwards.

None of which has anything to do with your post, Scooch -- just thinking about this aloud using your post to think it out.

I agree with all of that.

The 2018-19 season was when I realized the program might be heading into, as Mike Tyson would say, Bolivian.

We were coming off a Sweet 16 appearance and Battle came back for his junior year. I was so psyched. Returnees like senior Frank Howard (14 PPG/5 APG in '18), sophomore Oshae Brissett (15 PPG/9 PPG in '18), Dolezaj, Chukwu. And new arrivals like Elijah Hughes and Jalen Carey.

I thought that team was poised to challenge for the conference title and make a deep tourney run. And then... SPLAT. We looked totally overmatched at MSG in November, lost to Old Dominion and Buffalo at home, and totally collapsed down the stretch of the regular season. Just a big, wet, stinking disappointment in every way.

IMHO, it's all been downhill and accelerating since that season.

 

[orangecuse]

That would surprise me immensely.

Yeah. Of course those are common empty statements mad around here where there isn't anyway to be proven correct/incorrect. However, it does make for good matter of fact type malarkey. That said, what a frigging chit show high level college hoops and football have become.

 

[hoopsupstate]

Agree. Personally I think he’s waiting for Duke. And If he doesn’t play that game with a national spotlight I don’t think we’ll see him again.

Having said that I also doubt he plays the Duke game if he’s not 100% so seems like it’s a lot of probably No.

Just a comment too. Autry is really bad at press conferences and media. This off-season someone needs to sit down with him and get that straightened out. He gives just bad responses when he shouldn’t say anything and then doesn’t say anything when he should give more thought out responses.

Hell Fran Brown has never been even a Coordinator and he got up at the podium day 1 was confident and demanded respect. Autry was pretty much the opposite.

He’s not playing against Duke. Can you imagine Freeman trying to guard Flagg?

 

[Day2]

I haven’t seen this many discounts since before K-Mart closed down.

Stop discounting Freeman. We are not better off without him. Majstorovic is not a better player. Dolezaj was not a better player. Losing Freeman would not be a net positive for this program.

Stop discounting our Final Four and Sweet 16 appearances. Those happened. You can parse the hows and the whys all you want, but they happened. We’ve won one national championship in our history, so let’s not pretend these accomplishments are meaningless.

Freeman has plenty of room for improvement and the program isn’t headed in the right direction yet. We should all be in agreement on that.

 

[orangecuse]

We have two accomplishments post-2016. Two sweet sixteens. That's the list.

We haven't finished a season ranked.
We haven't won a conference title.
Hell, we haven't finished more than 2 games over .500 in conference.
We have 3 tourney appearances.

Not only haven't we won a conference title, we haven't sniffed one. Let alone, able to win more than one consecutive ACC tournament game since we have been in the league. "Come on man!" That's just darn right pathetic, especially with the ACC being such a weak arse league for the past few seasons to boot.

 

[MikeSU02]

Not only haven't we won a conference title, we haven't sniffed one. Let alone, able to win more than one consecutive ACC tournament game since we have been in the league. "Come on man!" That's just darn right pathetic, especially with the ACC being such a weak arse league for the past few seasons to boot.

Yeah -- if we were in the hunt for a conference title, I'd be ecstatic. ECSTATIC.

I don't expect to be Duke, ever. Legitimately. That's fine.

This year I was hoping to get an invite to the NCAAT, regardless of seed. I expected to be on the bubble but outside looking in.

I'm really happy for the guys with the ND win, but ND is 8-10, it was at home and their NET is 90. I mean... Yes, enjoy every win... but, seriously?

 

[MikeSU02]

Agree 1000%.

That was the clear line of demarcation. And agree about that '16 team -- if JB doesn't "sit" a few games, we probably aren't on the bubble, and that team plays to it's proper seeding.

Every year beyond that has been part of the tangible decline, with some performing slightly better than others due to personnel, and several not coming class to qualifying for postseason play.

The data also supports that split -- the first 38 years, JB won nearly 75% of his games. The last 8, he won closer to 55%, and was .500 in ACC league play.

From that standpoint, the 2016 F4 may as well have been a lifetime ago.

Just a note about that line of demarcation (and I agree with you and others about this) is that it also aligns with Red taking over as Associate HC.

Not a great sign.

 

[orangecuse]

Sobering.

The thing about 2016, I think, that often gets lost in the discussion is that 2016 happened on the tail end of the program having a resurgent period of sustained excellence.

• We were a #1 ranked / #1 seed in 2010.
• We only lost 1 regular season game in 2012, en route to an extended #1 ranking / being a #1 seed again.
• We went to the Final Four in 2013
• We started out 25-0 in 2014, with an extended #1 ranking [even though we faded, and the team was flawed, it felt like an extension of the previous years' success].
• 2015 was a lost year -- we were down, but the NCAA investigation led to us self-banning.
• 2016, we were up and down, but still made the F4.

So, the NCAA stuff was a blip, and we bounced back the next year and STILL made the Final Four. It was something that the fanbase could rally around, and a sign that we might not experience the drop off that the scholarship restrictions implied.

Unfortunately, it was the beginning of the decline. The next few years had limited depth, due to the scholarship restrictions. The talent level dipped [Battle, Hughes, Buddy, and a bunch of pretty average supporting cast otherwise]. We got ransacked by injuries. And Boeheim lost a little off his fastball with respect to recruiting.

Lots of reasons for the decline, but I associated 2016 with the preceding era, more than the decline. That was the tipping point, after which things were not the same afterwards.

None of which has anything to do with your post, Scooch -- just thinking about this aloud using your post to think it out.

Excellent post.

The end of that '16 season was quite something. Many strongly believed that our match up against Pitt in the ACC tournament was a 'play-in' game for each team and the loser was out. Well, after we lost to Pitt (for the 3rd time that season) most were thinking NIT. Then, miraculously, the leaked bracket and a 10 seed, drawing a favorable 1st round opponent in Dayton. Then, Sparty getting bounced by some directional team from Tennessee. Richardson going off in that epic comeback against UVA. FF here we come!

Who knows where we'd be today had JB just gone out as planned/on a high note right then and there?

 

[Fly Rodder]

I haven’t seen this many discounts since before K-Mart closed down.

Stop discounting Freeman. We are not better off without him. Majstorovic is not a better player. Dolezaj was not a better player. Losing Freeman would not be a net positive for this program.

Stop discounting our Final Four and Sweet 16 appearances. Those happened. You can parse the hows and the whys all you want, but they happened. We’ve won one national championship in our history, so let’s not pretend these accomplishments are meaningless.

Freeman has plenty of room for improvement and the program isn’t headed in the right direction yet. We should all be in agreement on that.

Based on playing in a Sweet 16 game (and losing by 16 points) in 2021, do you think we should be ranked next season?