Dr. Gross on the NJ Games

[rrlbees]

SU Atheltics is getting a ton of money for playing one game outside the Dome.

One game.

At the time the deal was made, SU was a Big East member in a declining revenue situation. Deal made sense. Still does. The kvetching from diehards fails to fully appreciate the opportunity Dr. Gross seized a few years back.

This is 1 game. But the deal is currently for 14. Hopefully with the ACC $$$ boost he gets out of the rest unless they are 1-1-1 deals with teams. Dump PedSt while he is at it.

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[kingottoiii]

If SU had half the success of USC they would be averaging 45K plus and would have sold out several games. SU was selling out games in the late 1990's with teams that never finished better then 9 wins and never had a sniff at a NC. They can absolutely sell out the dome again.

I disagree with that. Sure we sold out GAMES. Big games can certainly sell out. But what about the other 4-5 home games? Ten W seasons will be few and far between for a school like SU. Especially in the ACC. We cannot expect SU to consistently do that. We are much more likely to have our good years be 8-4 type seasons. That IMO will not do it for our casual fan base. 1998 was kind of a perfect storm of a year for home attendance and we still were 1500 per game under capacity. How often will we have a team coming off a league championship/BCS Bowl appearance, have a Heisman candidate, have an exciting high scoring O, have a home schedule with VT/Miami/Tenn, not have to compete with every game being on TV/HD TV/large flat screen TVs, all while in a decent economy?

I think what BC did its first five years in the ACC is about what SU can do for as a good stretch run. So if SU went 9-3, 10-3, 11-3, 9-5, 8-5 do you really think we would average over 45k for that 5 year stretch? Especially if we had a "boring" system like BCs?

IMO reducing capacity to 40k will do more for SU than trying to fill nearly 50k. First having so many empty seats is kind of a drag for TV, recruits, and even the fans there. It just looks bad. It gives a negative energy to both players and fans as well. Wouldn't it be nice to never read another "look how empty the Dome is" post again on this board? Second having increased amenities will make everyone happy. In addition if we only average 38k and charge $2.50 more per ticket ($15 a year) that is equal to getting another 3800 people at $25 per ticket. Heck now those 3800 people are likely paying closer to $10. So why spend so much on marketing and promotion to get those 3800 in at $10 per person when you can use the money to make things nicer for the 38k who actually are loyal fans?

 

[MikeSU02]

This is 1 game. But the deal is currently for 14. Hopefully with the ACC $$$ boost he gets out of the rest unless they are 1-1-1 deals with teams. Dump PedSt while he is at it.

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This is exactly my point. It isn't one game. And, it's part of a pattern.

I'll agree to disagree with Mad, but unless TGD does what Bees states, to me, this is a slap in the face for the locals.

Hope that bag of money he is getting from this game goes to good use.

 

[JeremyCuse]

I disagree with that. Sure we sold out GAMES. Big games can certainly sell out. But what about the other 4-5 home games? Ten W seasons will be few and far between for a school like SU. Especially in the ACC. We cannot expect SU to consistently do that. We are much more likely to have our good years be 8-4 type seasons. That IMO will not do it for our casual fan base. 1998 was kind of a perfect storm of a year for home attendance and we still were 1500 per game under capacity. How often will we have a team coming off a league championship/BCS Bowl appearance, have a Heisman candidate, have an exciting high scoring O, have a home schedule with VT/Miami/Tenn, not have to compete with every game being on TV/HD TV/large flat screen TVs, all while in a decent economy?

I think what BC did its first five years in the ACC is about what SU can do for as a good stretch run. So if SU went 9-3, 10-3, 11-3, 9-5, 8-5 do you really think we would average over 45k for that 5 year stretch? Especially if we had a "boring" system like BCs?

IMO reducing capacity to 40k will do more for SU than trying to fill nearly 50k. First having so many empty seats is kind of a drag for TV, recruits, and even the fans there. It just looks bad. It gives a negative energy to both players and fans as well. Wouldn't it be nice to never read another "look how empty the Dome is" post again on this board? Second having increased amenities will make everyone happy. In addition if we only average 38k and charge $2.50 more per ticket ($15 a year) that is equal to getting another 3800 people at $25 per ticket. Heck now those 3800 people are likely paying closer to $10. So why spend so much on marketing and promotion to get those 3800 in at $10 per person when you can use the money to make things nicer for the 38k who actually are loyal fans?

So you expect us to sell out every home game and if we dont it shows we need to decrease capacity? I dont get your point at all. Averaging 47K plus in 1998 isnt good enough? Who sells out every game besides the handful of schools I previously listed?

 

[orangecuse]

I dont have any problem playing an occasional game in NYC, in fact for the reason outlined by you and others I can understand why the USC game was moved to the meadowlands and I have accepted it. What I can' t accept however is the moving of every Marquee OOC game to NYC and then our AD basically stating in an interview that he expects the locals to go to the game in mass numbers and do the heavy lifting. Thats not a reasonable position in my mind and it just further erodes whats left of a crumbling fan base. You want to schedule a game in NYC every 3-5 years, no problem. Want to sign a 1-1-1- deal like we did with PSU, no problem. But it makes zero sense to continue to sign a 4 or 5 game deal with teams like ND or a 1-1 deal and play ZERO games at home. What other major college team does that? I know the 20 somethings in NYC have had to live through the Grob era and I know there as frustrated as we are but what about the fanbase and the 2o somethings here that have had to sit through the end of the P era, Grob, and the stuggles under Marrone? When does our loyalty get rewarded?

Ah, the 20 somethings...the entitled generation. What's in it for me, etc.? Loyalty is generally awarded after one's payment of dues...20 somethings haven't met this criteria yet...a lot more blood, sweat & tears is warranted before such a reward...it needs to be earned.

FYI...Athens Georgia is some 5 & 1/2 hours from Jacksonville, Florida...where the Bulldogs play every year in the World's Largest Outdoor Cocktail Party!

 

[TexanMark]

Do you think attendance would be great if SU were putting up these records at Florida, Miami, UCLA, Nebraska, USC etc? Newsflash when your team sucks people dont spend money to go games. Pitt hasnt sold out there stadium since Dan Marino was there. Rutgers expanded a stadium they haven't sold out once and are millions in the red because of it. USC can't sell out and there coming off one of the most successful decades of any program. You seem fascinated with SU meeting its capacity, outside of teams like Michigan, Alabama, Texas, Auburn, and a handful of others teams dont sell out every game.

Although I have come around to upgrading and downsizing the Dome's seating capacity a few thousand. I think they ought to go individual seats in the 100-300 level as a minimum retro fit in the preferred A-D areas. It should be a bennie to get an individual seat for those paying extra. They should also explore doing individual seats for some of the sideline seats for basketball too. I'd also look at gutting some 200 sections and building in plush boxes between the 20s for football.

 

[JeremyCuse]

Ah, the 20 somethings...the entitled generation. What's in it for me, etc.? Loyalty is generally awarded after one's payment of dues...20 somethings haven't met this criteria yet...a lot more blood, sweat & tears is warranted before such a reward...it needs to be earned.

FYI...Athens Georgia is some 5 & 1/2 hours from Jacksonville, Florida...where the Bulldogs play every year in the World's Largest Outdoor Cocktail Party!

I dont think were really entitled to anything just to have our home games played at home like every other D1 college football program.

 

[OttoMets]

So you expect us to sell out every home game and if we dont it shows we need to decrease capacity? I dont get your point at all. Averaging 47K plus in 1998 isnt good enough? Who sells out every game besides the handful of schools I previously listed?

Here're the 2010 attendance numbers; unfortunately, capacity isn't listed: http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/ncaa/pdfs/2011/2010+national+college+football+attendance

I would think that true sold-out seasons are rare, but getting 90% of capacity for the season is pretty standard in the big five conferences. Obviously there are teams that don't draw as well (private schools, teams in notoriously unenthusiastic sports regions, programs that have been bad for decades).

1998 was weird. 49,800 isn't a ton of seats to sell; while 47,000 is nice, it's crazy that Tennessee, Rutgers, Cincinnati, Virginia Tech, Boston College, and Miami couldn't achieve 100% capacity. Four big programs and two lousy teams against whom our entertaining offense scored something like 130 points.

That era saw good attendance with few sell-outs; since that time, demographics in Central New York have changed in such a way that we'll possibly never draw routine sell-outs again. I don't think that's a reason to decrease capacity, but it's probably best not to get our hopes up for packed houses. Casual folks have tuned out; the number of Central New Yorkers who care about football has dropped significantly.

 

[kingottoiii]

So you expect us to sell out every home game and if we dont it shows we need to decrease capacity? I dont get your point at all. Averaging 47K plus in 1998 isnt good enough? Who sells out every game besides the handful of schools I previously listed?

I think the Dome looks bad with a bunch of empty seats. It does SU no good when a game on TV has a bunch of empty seats. I think it gives the fanbase a negative vibe and causes people to complain, when there are a bunch of empty seats. I think it is a downer for the players to see a bunch of empty seats. I think it could influence recruits to see a bunch of empty seats. In order to alleviate the problem of having a bunch of empty seats you need to either fill them, or get rid of them. IMO it will be very hard for SU to fill those seats year in and year out. There just isn't enough loyal support to do so. And it is NOT a price issue as we have been trying to give away tix and it still hasn't brought in a bunch of people. Sure we could fill the place with a string of 1998-esque seasons. But is that even being realistic? That type of season is atypical. SU as a program is more likely to have a good stretch be a bunch of 8-4 season with an occasional 10-2 thrown in. I don't think that will be enough to get the casual fans to show up.

The casual fan wants an air it out system while playing games against USC, Texas, Bama, Ohio St, VT, and PSU. And to win most of those games. IMO it is nearly impossible for SU to satisfy the casual fan on a consistant basis. So why spend so much time, effort, and money going after something that just isn't likely to ever produce results? If you reduce capacity you make the experience better for the loyal fans. You don't have a negative vibe of "look at all the empties". You don't have the Dome look bad on TV. The players and recruits don't see an issue. And you save a bunch of time, effort, and money trying to create "new" fans to show up.

 

[TexanMark]

Really good idea.

I don't care about "loyalty" and "respect" and all the other whiny stuff thrown around on here, but the university is missing a golden opportunity by not eating a bit of its profit and running an inexpensive charter to the Meadowlands for the day. (Unless, of course, they've investigated this and think it's likely that they'd have no takers.)

Great idea...SU can book a "Boomarang Bus"

Leave at 9:30am from the regional transportation center and a quick stop on campus at a parking lot (give free parking for those using the bus), should get there by 2pm and leave 30-45 minutes after the game's end...you should be back by 11:30pm

Not much risk to book one bus and see what the demand is...this would appeal to many folks.

 

[JeremyCuse]

Here're the 2010 attendance numbers; unfortunately, capacity isn't listed: http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/ncaa/pdfs/2011/2010 national college football attendance

I would think that true sold-out seasons are rare, but getting 90% of capacity for the season is pretty standard in the big five conferences. Obviously there are teams that don't draw as well (private schools, teams in notoriously unenthusiastic sports regions, programs that have been bad for decades).

1998 was weird. 49,800 isn't a ton of seats to sell; while 47,000 is nice, it's crazy that Tennessee, Rutgers, Cincinnati, Virginia Tech, Boston College, and Miami couldn't achieve 100% capacity. Four big programs and two lousy teams against whom our entertaining offense scored something like 130 points.

That era saw good attendance with few sell-outs; since that time, demographics in Central New York have changed in such a way that we'll possibly never draw routine sell-outs again. I don't think that's a reason to decrease capacity, but it's probably best not to get our hopes up for packed houses. Casual folks have tuned out; the number of Central New Yorkers who care about football has dropped significantly.

I think the Miami and Va Tech games were sold out and Tenn was pretty close as well. I agree SU is unlikely to ever have routine sell outs again but man Gross would have an orgasm if we got 47K

 

[orangecuse]

I dont think were really entitled to anything just to have our home games played at home like every other D1 college football program.

Just as I mentioned Georgia (a D1 college football program) playing in Jacksonville every year, people/fans should just embrace it for what it is. Playing a big time program in a big time venue...a major event! With the football program being so lousy the past decade, we should all really, in this moment, be enjoying this and actually feel quite fortunate to be on this particular stage. What's the 'ol adage...any publicity is better than none at all.

 

[OttoMets]

I think the Miami and Va Tech games were sold out and Tenn was pretty close as well. I agree SU is unlikely to ever have routine sell outs again but man Gross would have an orgasm if we got 47K

Tech, Miami and Tennessee were indeed close - effective sellouts, over 49 and within a couple hundred people of capacity - but seats did go unsold. For what it's worth, I (who never attended a game in 1987 but did see Miami in 1992) have never heard the Dome louder than it was prior to kick against Tennesse (which was a noon game).

Incidentally, this brings up something else germane to renovation/capacity discussions: people are both wider than they were in 1980 and more expecting of comfortable surroundings that they were in 1980. I don't think a true sellout - which is now down to about 49,250 sold - is possible anymore. People would be spilling out into the aisles. Even 48,000 on those narrow benches would make the joint feel cramped.

 

[kingottoiii]

Although I have come around to upgrading and downsizing the Dome's seating capacity a few thousand. I think they ought to go individual seats in the 100-300 level as a minimum retro fit in the preferred A-D areas. It should be a bennie to get an individual seat for those paying extra. They should also explore doing individual seats for some of the sideline seats for basketball too. I'd also look at gutting some 200 sections and building in plush boxes between the 20s for football.

Unfortunately we know what we can pull in with 4-8 seasons. Outside factors have changed but we have a clue based on P's last few years what we can pull in with 6-6 seasons. I think the question is what can we pull in with 8-4 type seasons in today's landscape? If that number is 48k then I am wrong and we should not reduce capacity. If that number is 45k, then I see more benefit from a reduction. I think as a program we are likely to be in the 6 to 8 W range most years. Sure there will be down years or up years mixed in. But if the typical season is only getting 40k to show up, what is the point in having the extra 10k?

 

[JeremyCuse]

Just as I mentioned Georgia (a D1 college football program) playing in Jacksonville every year, people/fans should just embrace it for what it is. Playing a big time program in a big time venue...a major event! With the football program being so lousy the past decade, we should all really, in this moment, be enjoying this and actually feel quite fortunate to be on this particular stage. What's the 'ol adage...any publicity is better than none at all.

Thats a specific rivalry game played there every year, its not the same thing.

 

[GoSU96]

Unfortunately we know what we can pull in with 4-8 seasons. Outside factors have changed but we have a clue based on P's last few years what we can pull in with 6-6 seasons. I think the question is what can we pull in with 8-4 type seasons in today's landscape? If that number is 48k then I am wrong and we should not reduce capacity. If that number is 45k, then I see more benefit from a reduction. I think as a program we are likely to be in the 6 to 8 W range most years. Sure there will be down years or up years mixed in. But if the typical season is only getting 40k to show up, what is the point in having the extra 10k?

The program is +7K from 2007. My guess is that the ACC move adds another 2.5 to 5K. There is nothing wrong with mid 40's, and the access capacity is a good thing.

 

[44doubledees]

This just isn't about exposure in terms of attracting recruits Gross is running a business and this is about making the most money we can by being creative the money will be used to build facilities that will then get the recruits, the status quo is not working and if he can increase the budget by playing in the Meadowlands to me it is a good deal and can hopefully accelerate this rebuild.

 

[DPCuse]

Look, moving games out of the dome are not Plan A. We just haven't had the fan support and donations to bring in the dough to upgrade the facilities. So the good Dr. is forced to make arrangements such as this. Would we rather continue on the path we are currently on? I think we all want a winning program so we are forced to accept things such as moving games. If it brings in more money and better facitlies and better recruits, then the wins will come. Time will tell.

 

[kingottoiii]

The program is +7K from 2007. My guess is that the ACC move adds another 2.5 to 5K. There is nothing wrong with mid 40's, and the access capacity is a good thing.

Excess capacity is never a good thing. Does the casual fan care about Clemson, BC, MD, Pitt, NC St, and Wake? Or GA Tech, UNC, Duke, and UVA? I think the ACC move will absolutely help the butts in seats. So that announced 40k that is actually only 36k will actually be 40k. I think the ACC move will help for the real fans and decrease no shows. But it has been a long time since we have had over 42k at SU. In the 2000s we reached that number only twice. And one of those, the butts in seats was likely under 42k. In the last 12 years the actual attendance averaged over 43k zero times. You certainly can blame the GRob years on our record. But how can one explain the last 5 years of P and the Marrone years so far? Can we average much more than 42k if we are a 6 to 8 W program year in and year out? If so then we should keep capacity at 49k. If not then why not spruce up the Dome and make it look full at 44k?

 

[OrangePA]

http://www.syracuse.com/poliquin/index.ssf/2012/08/the_morning_orange_daryl_gross.html

To be attractive to recruits, sure. He gives away the game and it's all about resources. Bottom line: CNY fans don't support the program (not any one year's team - the program) enough to get us the $ we need. Season ticket holders have to suck it up and do even more heavy lifting, by traveling to see the team near NYC, or forego those games. And it's not their fault. Blame the schlubs around you in the grocery store.

I think it's pretty clear that Dr. Gross' original motivations were two-fold - get USC to come east and accumulate much-needed money for the program.

The recruiting angle is an after the fact rationalization, based probably on a comment here and there.

Once we fill the Dome on a regular basis - something that can be done and will be done in my opinion - there will be less talk of games in the NYC area.

 

[OrangePA]

http://www.syracuse.com/poliquin/index.ssf/2012/08/the_morning_orange_daryl_gross.html

To be attractive to recruits, sure. He gives away the game and it's all about resources. Bottom line: CNY fans don't support the program (not any one year's team - the program) enough to get us the $ we need. Season ticket holders have to suck it up and do even more heavy lifting, by traveling to see the team near NYC, or forego those games. And it's not their fault. Blame the schlubs around you in the grocery store.

I think it's pretty clear that Dr. Gross' original motivations were two-fold - get USC to come east and accumulate much-needed money for the program.

The recruiting angle is an after the fact rationalization, based probably on a comment here and there.

Once we fill the Dome on a regular basis - something that can be done and will be done in my opinion - there will be less talk of games in the NYC area.

 

[OrangeCrush22]

Do you think attendance would be great if SU were putting up these records at Florida, Miami, UCLA, Nebraska, USC etc? Newsflash when your team sucks people dont spend money to go games. Pitt hasnt sold out there stadium since Dan Marino was there. Rutgers expanded a stadium they haven't sold out once and are millions in the red because of it. USC can't sell out and there coming off one of the most successful decades of any program. You seem fascinated with SU meeting its capacity, outside of teams like Michigan, Alabama, Texas, Auburn, and a handful of others teams dont sell out every game.

Pitt just had a sellout this past season...

 

[IthacaMatt]

TGD is smarter than that. Basketball still has plenty of home games and we don't play individual games there unless it is SJU which is their home game. 1 football game is 17% of the home schedule.

And now after alienating local fans for the past few years in the Dome, he's going to put the onus of Metlife attendance 5 hours away on local fans? Wow. Someone pull up that article about this game being for our metro NYC fans and alumni.

And recruiting? Who? We admittedly recruit the south now. We get plenty of NYC kids now regardless of where we play. So who are we recruiting that playing in Metlife locks down?

Bad answer.

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I don't know - if we really make 70% of the budget for that 1 game, that's the equivalent of what we make in 4 home games. Might help accelerate doing the extra expansion of facilities that we need.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Well not halfway thru, but yeah, in 2004, 10k tickets went unsold for a night game against Florida State. Just never quite got that one..


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Despite losing, that was one of the loudest times I've heard at the Dome. Great game.

 

[Cuseman78]

Excess capacity is never a good thing. Does the casual fan care about Clemson, BC, MD, Pitt, NC St, and Wake? Or GA Tech, UNC, Duke, and UVA? I think the ACC move will absolutely help the butts in seats. So that announced 40k that is actually only 36k will actually be 40k. I think the ACC move will help for the real fans and decrease no shows. But it has been a long time since we have had over 42k at SU. In the 2000s we reached that number only twice. And one of those, the butts in seats was likely under 42k. In the last 12 years the actual attendance averaged over 43k zero times. You certainly can blame the GRob years on our record. But how can one explain the last 5 years of P and the Marrone years so far? Can we average much more than 42k if we are a 6 to 8 W program year in and year out? If so then we should keep capacity at 49k. If not then why not spruce up the Dome and make it look full at 44k?

I'm with you here. I have absolutely no problem pulling out 5k seats (44,444 for example) to add some nice premium seating which will also look better on TV. Nothing worse than seeing blocks of silver in the middle of your tv screen. If we do return to the late 90s winning wise, I think the program would sell out 44,444 for conference games. The reduced capacity would create some demand for tix which we have rarely seen here. I see no shame in dropping capacity a bit to further improve the Dome seating and reduce the amount of hideous silver