ending this recruiting cycle with a thud | Page 4 | Syracusefan.com

ending this recruiting cycle with a thud

GROB was probably the worst coach in college football history! He personally brought down 2 programs, have no idea why you constantly defend him. You might be the only one outside of his immediate family. Face it he was horrible.

where did i defend him? he was a bad head coach here. but what i posted was a fact. you sound like one of those posters that because he was a bad head coach, we'll just make stuff up. like he never had early morning workouts, he didn't care if kids went to class, he never had a recruiting board, etc. you know, anything people can grasp onto to embellish their hatred.
 
where did i defend him? he was a bad head coach here. but what i posted was a fact. you sound like one of those posters that because he was a bad head coach, we'll just make stuff up. like he never had early morning workouts, he didn't care if kids went to class, he never had a recruiting board, etc. you know, anything people can grasp onto to embellish their hatred.

He probably would have done better if he hadn't forced the team to run naked wind sprints.:)
 
He probably would have done better if he hadn't forced the team to run naked wind sprints.:)

that's a rutgers "thing". :)
 
where did i defend him? he was a bad head coach here. but what i posted was a fact. you sound like one of those posters that because he was a bad head coach, we'll just make stuff up. like he never had early morning workouts, he didn't care if kids went to class, he never had a recruiting board, etc. you know, anything people can grasp onto to embellish their hatred.
Come on! Whenever GROB is brought up you always chime in with something positive about him. Everyone here knows about your affection for him. He was an absoluetly horrendous coach for us and he did exactly the same thing with Michigan.
 
He probably would have done better if he hadn't forced the team to run naked wind sprints.:)

Or not waiting until his exit interview to give his inspirational/motivational "Little Engine That Could" speech. Oh how things could have been so very different if he had only given those speeches pre-game. :)
 
It's honestly remarkable that this thread has inspired four pages. Star rankings are arguably the worst possible way to rank classes (the exercise as a whole is ridiculous). Honestly, it doesn't take into account needs and attempts to distinguish between the 33rd best OLB and the 46th best OLB. It just defies logic.

I'm not defending this class (i thought it was absurd when a few folks were posting that this was the best and deepest class in years the other day). I just don't really know how it's possible for us to really know how good or how bad it is.

Have you correlated Star Rankings to Top 25 finishes over the last 10 years? I haven't...but I suspect it would be the way to prove your point.

44cuse
 
Come on! Whenever GROB is brought up you always chime in with something positive about him. Everyone here knows about your affection for him. He was an absoluetly horrendous coach for us and he did exactly the same thing with Michigan.

I won't speak for Bees, but I will say that the subtle point I always try to make is that to understand just how much GRob struggled as a coach it's important to understand that he wasn't actually a bad recruiter (given the uphill battle all our coaches face/will face). He was halfway decent in that regard and still struggled to win basically any games. But so many posters want to just take everything from the era and say it was a disaster -- only that doesn't make sense since Marrone's recruiting has been OK at best, yet he managed to win 8 games in one season and was a turnover vs. RU away from potentially -- terrible losing streak and all -- taking another team to a bowl game this year. Doesn't happen with "no talent."
 
I won't speak for Bees, but I will say that the subtle point I always try to make is that to understand just how much GRob struggled as a coach it's important to understand that he wasn't actually a bad recruiter (given the uphill battle all our coaches face/will face). He was halfway decent in that regard and still struggled to win basically any games. But so many posters want to just take everything from the era and say it was a disaster -- only that doesn't make sense since Marrone's recruiting has been OK at best, yet he managed to win 8 games in one season and was a turnover vs. RU away from potentially -- terrible losing streak and all -- taking another team to a bowl game this year. Doesn't happen with "no talent."

How do you guys evaluate recruiting though?

He got a lot of guys that were highly rated, but vastly underperformed and turned out to be overrated. He also got some 2 stars that were under the radar.

My main memory from the G-Rob era is the fact Syracuse couldn't recruit one guy who could catch a frickin punt.

I think people are starting to realize the cupboard wasn't completely bare. However, some of these same people still expect to have Marrone's frosh and sophs outperform redshirt juniors and seniors (especially at offensive skill positions).

In all honesty, you can't fully evaluate Marrone yet. I mean, in his first class (the only one that can be somewhat evaluated), he found 2 safeties who may get a NFL shot at camp, a starting LG (who was better as a frosh), a rush end, a starting RG (who he beat Miami out for) and usable depth in guys like Anderson and Ball. Plus, a LB who would have been in prime position to be a 4-year starter.

I mean, for half a recruiting season, that is a pretty solid class
 
Have you correlated Star Rankings to Top 25 finishes over the last 10 years? I haven't...but I suspect it would be the way to prove your point.

44cuse

I think it's been done and they generally correlate to some degree. But the point is always are they predictive or reactive? In other words recruiting rankings weren't predicting Boise State's sudden emergence onto the national scene or Notre Dame's general mediocrity for the better part of the last decade (15 years?) or Cincy's dominance of the BE for a couple years? Not that I saw. I never see Boise around the rankings and ND is always top 25, generally top 10 and Cincy was always bringing in classes in the 50s even with Brian Kelly.

So it's fine to say, "Alabama got a ton of good players" but unless you're signing the cream of the crop I'm not sure these sites can accurately distinguish the differences (which isn't to say SU has a good class or a bad class, merely that we don't know).
 
How do you guys evaluate recruiting though?

He got a lot of guys that were highly rated, but vastly underperformed and turned out to be overrated. He also got some 2 stars that were under the radar.

My main memory from the G-Rob era is the fact Syracuse couldn't recruit one guy who could catch a frickin punt.

I think people are starting to realize the cupboard wasn't completely bare. However, some of these same people still expect to have Marrone's frosh and sophs outperform redshirt juniors and seniors (especially at offensive skill positions).

In all honesty, you can't fully evaluate Marrone yet. I mean, in his first class (the only one that can be somewhat evaluated), he found 2 safeties who may get a NFL shot at camp, a starting LG (who was better as a frosh), a rush end, a starting RG (who he beat Miami out for) and usable depth in guys like Anderson and Ball. Plus, a LB who would have been in prime position to be a 4-year starter.

I mean, for half a recruiting season, that is a pretty solid class

I'm with you on all points. I think I just more meant that it's hard to say Marrone has been definitively better at recruiting (coaching, yes). I always thought the biggest hole in GRob recruiting was the lack of LBs and it's completely confusing. I mean, almost no one struggles to get LBs. QBs? yes. Play makers? Yes. Great OL or DTs? Sometimes. But LBs? It defies logic.
 
My main memory from the G-Rob era is the fact Syracuse couldn't recruit one guy who could catch a frickin punt.

The complaint was we always fair caught them, just like we still do.
 
The complaint was we always fair caught them, just like we still do.

At least Steve Rene has fantastic hands. I never worried about him catching anything. Up until Rene took over every punt over the past 7 years was an adventure.
 
We lost Brantley because of chemistry. Period not anything else. I happens he is a young kid and for whatever reason he didnt feel that the other players were a fit. Who knows he is 18 have him visit cuse 10 times and i bet 5 he loves 5 he hates. Just didnt work it happens. Big loss but time to move on
 
At least Steve Rene has fantastic hands. I never worried about him catching anything. Up until Rene took over every punt over the past 7 years was an adventure.

Williams never dropped a punt and I can't remember Holmes ever dropping one either. The year Maisel did PR it was because he was the only one that could catch them. But I don't remember all these dropped punts, I think it is exaggerated. Everyone always screamed why all we did was fair catch them.
 
Holmes dropped a few and was always scary as he had balls and would try to catch and return everything still he had his moments. Rene was never a threat to do anything but catch the ball. I always wondered if we would have been better off just putting the extra player on the line going for the block as i knew the best we could ever hope for was a fair catch. Just kidding but Steve Rene puts more fear in me than he does in our opponents
 
No, I'm basing it on him losing the team after beating WVU this year and then going on a 5 game losing streak. I'm also basing it on the number of kids who have left the program, and the number of key players that seem to get suspended every season that Doug has been here so far.

You would also hope that when they assign kids to host recruits, that they would be picking hosts who are happy to be on the team, not people who complain to recruits about being here. That's specifically the part that bothers me.

Recruiting trips are supposed to be a great time - I was recruited when I was a HS senior for cross country and track, and I loved taking visits. If you are a kid and go to a school and DON'T have a good time, that is a problem. How do you sell your program with hosts complaining about the program?

WHAT IS SOMETHING IN THE WATER IN ITHACA?
 
I think it's been done and they generally correlate to some degree. But the point is always are they predictive or reactive? In other words recruiting rankings weren't predicting Boise State's sudden emergence onto the national scene or Notre Dame's general mediocrity for the better part of the last decade (15 years?) or Cincy's dominance of the BE for a couple years? Not that I saw. I never see Boise around the rankings and ND is always top 25, generally top 10 and Cincy was always bringing in classes in the 50s even with Brian Kelly.

So it's fine to say, "Alabama got a ton of good players" but unless you're signing the cream of the crop I'm not sure these sites can accurately distinguish the differences (which isn't to say SU has a good class or a bad class, merely that we don't know).

Not disagreeing because I get how that makes sense. Particularly in the case of ND. However, I bet if you took the rankings in the aggregate over ten years, that those would be the edge conditions and the correlation to high rankings and success would be the norm.

Not trying to be flip, but our classes have not been highly ranked and we have sucked. So they are getting that piece of it correct.

44cuse
 
"Losing the team"?

What a bunch of nonsense. You were obviously not at the Pitt game.

The Orange played hard and by the end were physically beating up the Panthers.

The "kids who have left the program" comment is also nonsense. The talent level on this team - this awful team that in one season won 50% of the games Robinson won in four years - is much improved and getting better and better.

I am not sure what you are suggesting re suspended players. Do you mean Coach Marrone is not monitoring his players? Or is being too tough?

Or is your reference nothing more than a misinformed, gratuitous pot shot?

Lets see how we do on February 1.

I think a 5 game losing streak to end the season speaks for itself. Didn't you read the article where Nassib called out the "bad element" on the team in the Post-Standard? We had a couple starters on defense kicked off the team, which has happened each year so far under Doug. How many other teams lose a couple starters every year due to disciplinary issues ? I want Doug to be successful, but he seems tight, and that's exactly how we played once we got past WVU and were looking for that elusive win to get us bowl eligible again.
 
I think a 5 game losing streak to end the season speaks for itself. Didn't you read the article where Nassib called out the "bad element" on the team in the Post-Standard? We had a couple starters on defense kicked off the team, which has happened each year so far under Doug. How many other teams lose a couple starters every year due to disciplinary issues ? I want Doug to be successful, but he seems tight, and that's exactly how we played once we got past WVU and were looking for that elusive win to get us bowl eligible again.


A five game losing streak means that in five games the opposition scored more points than the Orange.

It doesn't mean that Doug Marrone lost the team. Do I gather from your post that Tom Coughlin lost the team when the Giants lost four games this fall?

I still don't get your issue with player discipline. Are you suggesting that Philip Thomas - who was not kicked off the team - should not have been disciplined? Or are you suggesting that Doug caused Thomas to do whatever he did to warrant the one year suspension? Are you suggesting that Doug caused Marcus Sales to ride in the car with his brother that night? I think you fail to recognize that in an effort to improve the quality of the team, Marrone probably decided to take a few chances with certain players e.g. E.J. Carter. I remember similar things happening in the past with the program during rebuilding periods. I remember when, in 1975, Frank Maloney kicked a monster DL off the team - Marvin Powers - who was going to dominate the following year.

The fact is that in today's game, you see players being disciplined all the time.

I was at the Pitt game - the final game of the year. The Orange did not play "tight." After making a few mistakes at the outset, the Orange played hard, physical football.

The players didn't lose heart that day, they ran out of time.

And the fact is that with respect to USF, Cincy, and Louisville they played a bunch of teams toward the end of the season that were simply better than they were.

The loss to UConn was a bad loss. The defense simply failed to show up for the second half. And yet, we still should have won the game on our final drive.

So, I really don't buy the "lost the team" talk.

Last year was part of the process.
 
Not disagreeing because I get how that makes sense. Particularly in the case of ND. However, I bet if you took the rankings in the aggregate over ten years, that those would be the edge conditions and the correlation to high rankings and success would be the norm.

Not trying to be flip, but our classes have not been highly ranked and we have sucked. So they are getting that piece of it correct.

44cuse

I'm not really sure it's the edge conditions. I tend to think of it more like those temporal thermometers that scan your forehead. Generally speaking they are pretty accurate when you don't have a fever. When you do they become significantly less accurate. My point being, for the most part, a service can slot in the top tier teams in teh top 25 with a few changes each year, then fill out the rest of the top 60 or so with the BCS folks in general accordance with where they finish in the standings then do the same with the mid-majors. Most of the time, this is going to basically be played out on the field. But does that mean it was accurate recruiting rankings or merely a reflection of the state of those programs? I'd posit it's the latter.

Another example of this is that, as far as I know, we never cracked the top 25 in recruiting rankings in the early to mid-90s. I believe we finally did did with the 1998 class (mo minter, mo jackson, jeremy cooper, et al). At the time we were clearly a top 25 program producing quite a few NFL prospects, yet we never cracked the top 25. When we finally did, it was with the 1998 class -- a class that essentially coincided with our precipitous fall from the ranks of the elite (or at least the "very good.")

Do I think this is because scouting sites intentionally mislead people or serve no purpose? No, not really. But I just think they are inherantly flawed. For example, there is no way for them to account for any of the following:

-- a kid's makeup and how hard he'll work at the next level
-- a kid's academic status and how hard he'll work to maintain that.
-- the differences between programs in terms of coaching and strength/conditioning
-- the differences between their own evaluators (is the kid covering Seattle as good as the kid covering Buffalo/Syracuse/Albany)?
-- inherent biases: who's better the LB playing at JD or the kid playing at Mater Dei in Calif.? Probably the latter but not necessarily as kids like Will Allen or Ray Rice prove all the time.
-- the need to sell publications (ND is a national fan base -- does it make sense to rank them 38th?)
-- how a kid fits into a particular system
-- personal things going on in a kid's life.

There are just so many things and that's not even getting into the point that they try to distinguish between the 36th best OLB and the 44th -- I mean, can anyone do that?

I just think you have to trust your staff's ability to evaluate and then, more importantly, develop the talent they get. Then cross your fingers on eligibility and injury issues.
 
A five game losing streak means that in five games the opposition scored more points than the Orange.

It doesn't mean that Doug Marrone lost the team. Do I gather from your post that Tom Coughlin lost the team when the Giants lost four games this fall?

I still don't get your issue with player discipline. Are you suggesting that Philip Thomas - who was not kicked off the team - should not have been disciplined? Or are you suggesting that Doug caused Thomas to do whatever he did to warrant the one year suspension? Are you suggesting that Doug caused Marcus Sales to ride in the car with his brother that night? I think you fail to recognize that in an effort to improve the quality of the team, Marrone probably decided to take a few chances with certain players e.g. E.J. Carter. I remember similar things happening in the past with the program during rebuilding periods. I remember when, in 1975, Frank Maloney kicked a monster DL off the team - Marvin Powers - who was going to dominate the following year.

The fact is that in today's game, you see players being disciplined all the time.

I was at the Pitt game - the final game of the year. The Orange did not play "tight." After making a few mistakes at the outset, the Orange played hard, physical football.

The players didn't lose heart that day, they ran out of time.

And the fact is that with respect to USF, Cincy, and Louisville they played a bunch of teams toward the end of the season that were simply better than they were.

The loss to UConn was a bad loss. The defense simply failed to show up for the second half. And yet, we still should have won the game on our final drive.

So, I really don't buy the "lost the team" talk.

Last year was part of the process.

You skipped over the part about the team's quarterback airing the dirty laundry in the newspaper about his other teammates and there not being enough leaders on the team. But sure, everything's just rosy up on the Hill and Doug will have a long and successful career. I sure hope so, but I'm just not feeling it. I feel like he over-manages his staff and his players and they don't respond well to it.
 
You skipped over the part about the team's quarterback airing the dirty laundry in the newspaper about his other teammates and there not being enough leaders on the team. But sure, everything's just rosy up on the Hill and Doug will have a long and successful career. I sure hope so, but I'm just not feeling it. I feel like he over-manages his staff and his players and they don't respond well to it.


I don't expect 85-100 guys with very different backgrounds who play a violent game to get along with each other all the time.

That never happens on any team or in any business office for that matter. And successful teams often just don't like each other.

And when much of the team is very young I expect it to take time for leaders to emerge. I suspect, for example, that Reddish will be a leader at some point, but the guy is still completing his frosh season.

The QB said nothing that was all that provocative or unusual. He's a kid from the Main Line outside Philly who is probably a much different person than say a kid from inner city Miami.

And that changes nothing as far as the growth of this still young program.

So, while you have some weird feeling, I have no facts that warrant any concern.

And with this recruiting class showing a lot of big, fast athletes, you can have bad thoughts and feelings, but I am more encouraged than ever that Doug Marrone is doing what he promised he would do - rejuvanate the program.
 
I don't expect 85-100 guys with very different backgrounds who play a violent game to get along with each other all the time.

That never happens on any team or in any business office for that matter. And successful teams often just don't like each other.

And when much of the team is very young I expect it to take time for leaders to emerge. I suspect, for example, that Reddish will be a leader at some point, but the guy is still completing his frosh season.

The QB said nothing that was all that provocative or unusual. He's a kid from the Main Line outside Philly who is probably a much different person than say a kid from inner city Miami.

And that changes nothing as far as the growth of this still young program.

So, while you have some weird feeling, I have no facts that warrant any concern.

And with this recruiting class showing a lot of big, fast athletes, you can have bad thoughts and feelings, but I am more encouraged than ever that Doug Marrone is doing what he promised he would do - rejuvanate the program.
I may not agree with that often but i do love your passion PA lets hope that you are correct as i think that everyone is pulling for Doug. Still it is hard to simply dismiss the melt down and the fact that it caused some internal problems.
 

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