Facilities

[OrangePA]

I don't see anything in his post that is incorrect. I think all he has been saying is that you need more than just facilities to have a successful program, starting with good coaches.


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He's wrong for many reasons.

I'll explain.

 

[rrlbees]

i thought we ended this like 3 pages ago?

if not, then what the hell is going on with the IPF that we actually broke ground on?

Are they waiting for volunteers?

It is a very good question.


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[wfschrec]

Yep. I changed the first sentence.

What did you change the font? The verbiage is still the same. :bang:

 

[SWC75]

You just don't get it.

On every count you don't get it and haven't gotten it.

First, Barry Switzer.

Barry won at Oklahoma because he had the most talented team every year for a number of years.

He was hired by Jerry Jones to prove to Jimmy Johnson that Cowboys could win with any coach including one who had never coached in the NFL and who hadn't coached at all in a number of years.

Barry won a bit in Dallas because he had extraordinary talent. That was part of what I was suggesting - teams with great talent can win even with mediocre coaching. In that sense your post has unwittingly confirmed part of what I was trying to convey to you.

What you failed to understand while reading my post was this - most observers agree that the Dallas Cowboys should have won two or three additional Super Bowls -that had Jimmy Johnson remained with the team, they would have done so.

And that's part of what I was saying. A mediocre coach can hurt a talented team.

As far as P and D are concerned, here is what I recall. For many years you insisted that SU Football had facilities that were equal to or better than those of our competition. I recall how adamant you were that our facilities were state of the art. You dismissed the notion that we could not compete with other schools in that regard. And you were just flat out wrong about that.

Instead, you insisted that our 6-6 seasons were due to coaching.

And now you suggest that it was the bad losses to Va Tech and Miami and Rutgers that caused the program to move in the wrong direction.

The reality of course is just the opposite.

The bad loss to Va Tech was caused by the fact that the Hokies had Mike Vick at QB while we had Troy Nunes - a Division II QB who should never have been playing for SU. Had Vick come to SU as the staff fully expected him to do, we would have won a lot more games.

Vick better than Nunes. Got that??

And, we lost badly to Miami because that team had probably 15 All Pros and we didn't.

And we lost to Rutgers because the talent differential between the two teams was not as wide as you presumed - the talent differential between the two teams created for SU a fairly narrow margin for error. When we dropped passess (Lowe) and missed FGs (Barber, I think) that margin for error was breached. I'mpretty sure that Barber missed a last minute PAT in 2002 (?) at Temple to lose that game. He was a pretty mediocre kicker whose lack of talent hurt us a great deal.

O'Neill/Biskup/Greene, Mare better than Barber. Got that?

The talent deficiency resulted not from the losses to Va Tech or others, but caused those losses.

An that talent deficiency began much earlier - during McNabb years - than most of us realized at the time.

I have the same media guides that you have but I understand that the guides are used to recruit.or that reason they tell an optimistic story about our facilities. They do not tell and have not told the actual reality. In 2003 the Media Guide for that season did not state "it's true that we have AstroTurf in the Dome that most kids do not like, but hey, so what?!"

I was told ten years ago that the AstroTurf in the Dome was really hurting our recruiting - the kids did not want to play on the stuff. That basic reality had more impact than Vick beating us badly on the field.

Many on this board have had frank conversations with coaches or Athletic Department personnel over the years, who have stated quite bluntly how far behind we have been -and how far behind we remain. I was there in the early spring of 2011 - you were not there - when Marrone told us that if no action were taken at that time -IPF - there would be another coach standing in front of the audience in a few years repeating what he was telling us.

You may recall that the Dome BB court was at one time a Tartan surface. That was quickly changed when the kids started complaining about it and recruits refused to play on it.

The AstroTurf however remained in the Dome well after our competition had gone to Field Turf.

As far as Vince Lombardi is concerned, you still don't understand.

I never suggested that we should compare our coaches to Vince Lombardi. What I said was this. Many, including you and me were raised on the "Lombardi Legend" - that a great coach could transforma bad team with bad players into a great team -that a great coach could turn a bad or mediocre player into a great player.

Well, that's not true. It's not magic.

Teams play better when they improve their talent. And good coaches can help talented players play better than can mediocre coaches. Coaches help a lot. But, the most important factor is talent. And in college the talent follows the money. Oregon -a program with no football legacy - has made that quite clear.

As far as Indiana is concerned, football recruiting has been better than ever before since the infrastructure improvements were made two years ago. The IU team has more athletes now than ever before - and it's not even close.

All of my friends who follow IU Football - all of my best friends go to every home game - agree that the new football facility has changed everything -it has transformed IU Football.

This is my last post on this subject with you Steve.

I am confident that I know the issue far better than you do. Actually, that's not right. I have no doubt that I know the issue better than you do.

There is no need to discuss it with you any further.

 

[OrangePA]

Sorry Steve, I stopped reading Peanuts a long time ago.

You still don't know what you're talking about. Sorry.

 

[Toga]

bump

 

[rrlbees]

bump

Why???


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[SWC75]

Sorry Steve, I stopped reading Peanuts a long time ago.

You still don't know what you're talking about. Sorry.

On another subject, I see you've made the Saltine Warrior your avatar. Are you advocating going back to that mascot? Or do you just like the song, (as I do)?

 

[SU2NASA]

On another subject, I see you've made the Saltine Warrior your avatar. Are you advocating going back to that mascot? Or do you just like the song, (as I do)?

We need to not only go back to it but make it more offensive.

That, and pay players.

And become the dirtiest program in the nation.

And unretire 44.

 

[nzm136]

Could someone name the recruits who were 'driven away' by our facilities?

I actually know of one. I know the kid's dad.

None the less, I think that coach>facilities.
However, it's easier to build good facilities than it is to hire the right coach.

 

[nzm136]

We need to not only go back to it but make it more offensive.

That, and pay players.

And become the dirtiest program in the nation.

And unretire 44.

That seems to work for USC/Miami/PSU/OSU/OSU(OK ST)/Oregon and every SEC team not named Vanderbilt (they just cover up s*xual assault/r*pe)

Felonies aside, I'm all for it. Everyone else is already doing it. We would just be leveling the playing field.

 

[OrangePA]

On another subject, I see you've made the Saltine Warrior your avatar. Are you advocating going back to that mascot? Or do you just like the song, (as I do)?

I love the song - a truly great fight song that should be brought back - just change the lyrics if need be.

I would like to see the return of the Saltine Warrior as well - I would think that if the Onondaga and Oneida Nations were consulted and made part of the process, it could be done.

But it seems that nobody wants to take the political risk of trying it.

 

[Ernj]

I love the song - a truly great fight song that should be brought back - just change the lyrics if need be.

I would like to see the return of the Saltine Warrior as well - I would think that if the Onondaga and Oneida Nations were consulted and made part of the process, it could be done.

But it seems that nobody wants to take the political risk of trying it.

The Oneidas have been traveling to DC to convince the 'Skins to change their mascot - although based on Halbritter's past I am sure he is doing this for publicity. I highly doubt they would agree to allowing the Saltine Warrior's return. Would be counter to his argument that Washington should change their mascot.

 

[wfschrec]

The Oneidas have been traveling to DC to convince the 'Skins to change their mascot - although based on Halbritter's past I am sure he is doing this for publicity. I highly doubt they would agree to allowing the Saltine Warrior's return. Would be counter to his argument that Washington should change their mascot.

Halbritter is one of the biggest scumbags on the planet ... I went to high school with a bunch of the kids that lived on that reservation ... that man is a tremendous dirtbag and a lot of the people that live on the reservation feel the same way but won't say anything for fear of retribution.

 

[OrangePA]

The Oneidas have been traveling to DC to convince the 'Skins to change their mascot - although based on Halbritter's past I am sure he is doing this for publicity. I highly doubt they would agree to allowing the Saltine Warrior's return. Would be counter to his argument that Washington should change their mascot.

That would be the safe conclusion.

But a few things to consider.

First, the name "Redskins" is in fact offensive.

The name "Saltine Warrior" is not offensive.

Second, Halbritter and the University have established a strong financial/marketing relationhsip.

Third, I have suggested that the Oneidas/Halbritter and the Onondagas create a character that is true to their culture - that presents their people in the positive/unique light that they deserve.

The establishment of a charachter crafted by the Oneidas/Onondagas would establish its credibility and would help promote their culture - it would be a very positive thing for all involved - it would demonstrate how the Redskins approach is the wrong approach.

Having said that, I suspect that it will never happen.

 

[SWC75]

I love the song - a truly great fight song that should be brought back - just change the lyrics if need be.

I would like to see the return of the Saltine Warrior as well - I would think that if the Onondaga and Oneida Nations were consulted and made part of the process, it could be done.

But it seems that nobody wants to take the political risk of trying it.

What Lyrics would you change?

In the days of old, when knights were bold
Every city had its warrior man.
In the days of new, when fights are few
You will view them from a big grandstand.
In our college town one has great renown
If the game of football he should play.
With his pig-skin ball he is cheered by all,
He's the Saltine Warrior of today.
Chorus: The Saltine Warrior is a bold, bad man,
And his weapon is a pigskin ball,
When on the field he takes a good, firm stand,
He's the hero of large and small.
He will rush toward the goal with might and main
His opponents all fight, but they fight in vain,
Because the Saltine Warrior is a bold, bad man,
And victorious over all.

 

[Toga]

The end of the Civil War was near
When quite accidentally,
A hero who sneezed abruptly seized
Retreat and reversed it to victory.

His medal of honor pleased and thrilled
his proud little family group.
While pinning it on some blood was spilled
And so it was planned he'd command Troop.

Where Indian fights are colorful sights
and nobody takes a lickin'
Where pale face and redskin
Both turn chicken.

When killing and fighting get them down,
They know their morale can't droop.
As long as they all relax in town
Before they resume with a bang and a boom
Troop.

 

[Ernj]

I agree that the term warrior is not offensive and his relationship with Syracuse is established. My guess though is that the relationship between the Onondagas and Oneidas might get in the way of agreeing on anything. My guess is the only way Halbritter agrees to anything is if it benefits him. Like saying: "The Saltine Warrior approved by Ray Halbritter".

 

[OrangePA]

What Lyrics would you change?

In the days of old, when knights were bold
Every city had its warrior man.
In the days of new, when fights are few
You will view them from a big grandstand.
In our college town one has great renown
If the game of football he should play.
With his pig-skin ball he is cheered by all,
He's the Saltine Warrior of today.
Chorus: The Saltine Warrior is a bold, bad man,
And his weapon is a pigskin ball,
When on the field he takes a good, firm stand,
He's the hero of large and small.
He will rush toward the goal with might and main
His opponents all fight, but they fight in vain,
Because the Saltine Warrior is a bold, bad man,
And victorious over all.

I guess Saltine Warrior.

 

[Toga]

Why???

I can't remember.

 

[Orangepace]

Our peer group is the ACC and in some ways NE schools. We aren't ever going to compete with the Oregon's, Texas, SEC etc.

You are what you believe you are. If you accept things for the way they are, they will never change. I prefer to believe SU will compete with those schools. Merely need a billionaire benefactor to carry us there.