Football Sell-Out...

[xc84]

Also, I care less about individual games than seasons. Here is my go-to page for season attendance (not updated recently). The 90s were good. Look at '92...averaged over 49.

http://www.suathletics.com/sports/2008/4/23/sufootballhomeattendance.aspx

 

[OttoMets]

My bad on my other post. According to wiki, the capacity is/was as follows:

​

Football: 49,262 (2003-present), 49,550 (1998-2002), 50,000 (1980-1997)
That makes this a sellout:

'98: #10 Tennessee* #17 Carrier Dome • Syracuse, NY ESPN L 33–34 49,550

Sweet, good find.

And if that's the case, I'm wrong about Tennessee (though I remember the usual "how could we not sell out our opener against Tennessee" grumbling the next day, and I could swear that people were buying walk-ups from the box office near Archbold that morning).

 

[CUSU]

My bad on my other post. According to wiki, the capacity is/was as follows:


Football: 49,262 (2003-present), 49,550 (1998-2002), 50,000 (1980-1997)
That makes this a sellout:

'98: #10 Tennessee* #17 Carrier Dome • Syracuse, NY ESPN L 33–34 49,550

I was 5 years old and at that game. Remember what the dome looked like to this day and there is nothing like it. A fight broke out right in front of where my dad and I were sitting. Lets do what we can to fill it this year.

 

[Chip]

Sweet, good find.

And if that's the case, I'm wrong about Tennessee (though I remember the usual "how could we not sell out our opener against Tennessee" grumbling the next day, and I could swear that people were buying walk-ups from the box office near Archbold that morning).

I think the Tennessee fans would have bought the place out. They were everywhere.

I remember on the Michigan game, we had decided not to give them a full allotment of tickets based on how little they gave us in 1998, could have had some impact.

I also remember Marrone (last year?) saying the Dome had only officially sold out once. Which didn't seem right to me.

 

[Libero2]

Part of the problem is something no one wants to hear. Watching a game on TV is better than going to the stadium. Even if you think the in game atmosphere is better (I do) it's undeniably cheaper to stay home. Between ticket costs, in stadium buys (food, gifts, jerseys,hats and whatnot) parking issues, traffic, gas costs and everything else involved a lot of people would just rather watch the games at home, especially when you add in the convenience of TiVO and TV features, they just would rather be home.

 

[SUFan44]

Product, game time, better off the field stuff (the PA announcers stink), more up to date out of town scores, a better scored and choreographed band, better pre & post game congregated tail-gate areas, etc.

Sent from my SCH-I200 using Tapatalk 2

Those are ALL things that would be nice, but the uptick in attendance seen if all of them are corrected and fixed would not make the Dome full.

Tomcat is correct - win and I think the large crowds will follow.

 

[OttoMets]

I think the Tennessee fans would have bought the place out. They were everywhere.

I remember on the Michigan game, we had decided not to give them a full allotment of tickets based on how little they gave us in 1998, could have had some impact.

I also remember Marrone (last year?) saying the Dome had only officially sold out once. Which didn't seem right to me.

Yeah, I'm leafing through that column now (http://www.syracuse.com/poliquin/index.ssf/2011/08/poliquin_its_time_for_syracuse.html).

I guess one could argue that he's correct (if the first crowd was the biggest, they could paint that as capacity and say that everything since has fallen short), but it's probably silly for our purposes: a sell-out is more like "SU routinely prints/makes available X number of tickets for a football game and for this game they've sold/distributed X tickets."

Fans and members of the press tend to have a liberal interpretation of the term, but it shouldn't be difficult for SU to better detail the crowds they've drawn and the effect of Dome renovations on capacity (after all, how easy is to find exact figures regarding, say, capacity and field dimensions for Yankee Stadium over the past 90 years?). And "sell-outs" are well-documented for the basketball team, too. (On a related note, is SU ever going to pay attention to its website? "Year-by-year statistics" hasn't been updated in two seasons; half the links are broken; and it cuts off in 1992.)

 

[OttoMets]

Part of the problem is something no one wants to hear. Watching a game on TV is better than going to the stadium. Even if you think the in game atmosphere is better (I do) it's undeniably cheaper to stay home. Between ticket costs, in stadium buys (food, gifts, jerseys,hats and whatnot) parking issues, traffic, gas costs and everything else involved a lot of people would just rather watch the games at home, especially when you add in the convenience of TiVO and TV features, they just would rather be home.

Yeah, this is much of it.

Winning matters, but people were packing the Dome when a) it was a novelty and b) television was often tape-delayed and -- even when viewed live -- was watched on a 25-inch old-timey TV. It was such a vastly inferior option to attending the game. I'd still rather be there, but the existence of live feeds and inexpensive 40+-inch HD televisions with all the perks you've mentioned have evened the playing field.

Also consider the evolution of the bar: an active, light-filled space with half a dozen new televisions, decent food, and 30+ types of beer is a far cry from its predecessor and offers one more alternative to game attendance that did not (in this form) exist in the late-'80s.

Throw in societal changes - aging of the population, further sprawl of the community - and an indifferent student body and the "game as event" just isn't as attractive as it used to be.

 

[oldpinepoint]

When the Carrier Dome is packed, it is a ridiculous home field advantage. I remember how loud it was against #9 Iowa a few years back and we werent that close to a sellout.

Jason - what is SU doing right now from an Orange Out perspective? Would be awesome to start marketing the Clemson game to be an Orange Out. Tell Daryl...

Every game should be an orange out.

 

[omniorange]

Also, I care less about individual games than seasons. Here is my go-to page for season attendance (not updated recently). The 90s were good. Look at '92...averaged over 49.

http://www.suathletics.com/sports/2008/4/23/sufootballhomeattendance.aspx

1992 - Now that was a home schedule - Texas, Ohio State, Miami, and Virginia Tech. We finished Top 7 in both polls that year. Fiesta Bowl win over Colorado.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[Rocco]

Never seen a sellout for football. Would LOVE to be able to sit inside the Dome for a packed crowd.

I would love for you too as well. It is an incredible experience.

 

[Libero2]

Yeah, this is much of it.

Winning matters, but people were packing the Dome when a) it was a novelty and b) television was often tape-delayed and -- even when viewed live -- was watched on a 25-inch old-timey TV. It was such a vastly inferior option to attending the game. I'd still rather be there, but the existence of live feeds and inexpensive 40+-inch HD televisions with all the perks you've mentioned have evened the playing field.

Also consider the evolution of the bar: an active, light-filled space with half a dozen new televisions, decent food, and 30+ types of beer is a far cry from its predecessor and offers one more alternative to game attendance that did not (in this form) exist in the late-'80s.

Throw in societal changes - aging of the population, further sprawl of the community - and an indifferent student body and the "game as event" just isn't as attractive as it used to be.

This is true anywhere. So I can still see the complaints of how come Ann Arbor can get 100k to games and we still can't get to the upper 40s. However I think (and I could be very, very wrong about this) syracuse is not nearly the city (size wise) that so many other major D1 universities are. Add in the fact the economy is down (although returning), and it doesn't surprise me to see us struggling to fill the dome.

However if we were to ask how to improve attendance, the biggest reason undeniably is winning (particularly early in the season to build hype). The other stuff would just help keep butts in the seats once they get there, but winning will get them in the door.

 

[Chip]

1992 - Now that was a home schedule - Texas, Ohio State, Miami, and Virginia Tech. We finished Top 7 in both polls that year. Fiesta Bowl win over Colorado.

Cheers,
Neil

Looks slightly better now than it did then. Other than perhaps the biggest Bruce Smith fans, no one knew who Virginia Tech was until 1993.

Texas was also fairly down at the time if I recall. It was still exciting to have them in the Dome, they brought a lot of fans, and that was one of the more entertaining games I have attended. But that wasn't the same Texas program it was in the past, and became again in the future.

Miami was most certainly Miami that year. Even during warm ups they were intimidating. Ohio State brought about 8,000 fans and they made as much noise as any away game crowd I've ever seen in the Dome. They also had a pregame parade down Marshall St.

 

[sufandu]

Part of the problem is something no one wants to hear. Watching a game on TV is better than going to the stadium. Even if you think the in game atmosphere is better (I do) it's undeniably cheaper to stay home. Between ticket costs, in stadium buys (food, gifts, jerseys,hats and whatnot) parking issues, traffic, gas costs and everything else involved a lot of people would just rather watch the games at home, especially when you add in the convenience of TiVO and TV features, they just would rather be home.

I agree all of those are things to fight, but why don't they adversely affect attendance in other places the they do here?

 

[omniorange]

Looks slightly better now than it did then. Other than perhaps the biggest Bruce Smith fans, no one knew who Virginia Tech was until 1993.

Texas was also fairly down at the time if I recall. It was still exciting to have them in the Dome, they brought a lot of fans, and that was one of the more entertaining games I have attended. But that wasn't the same Texas program it was in the past, and became again in the future.

Miami was most certainly Miami that year. Even during warm ups they were intimidating. Ohio State brought about 8,000 fans and they made as much noise as any away game crowd I've ever seen in the Dome. They also had a pregame parade down Marshall St.

Yeah, I misremembered when VT actually got good. As for Texas, anytime you can get a King in the Dome it's good. We had three Kings in the Dome that year. Even being in the ACC now, we will be lucky to have 1 every other year.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[JeremyCuse]

Yeah, this is much of it.

Winning matters, but people were packing the Dome when a) it was a novelty and b) television was often tape-delayed and -- even when viewed live -- was watched on a 25-inch old-timey TV. It was such a vastly inferior option to attending the game. I'd still rather be there, but the existence of live feeds and inexpensive 40+-inch HD televisions with all the perks you've mentioned have evened the playing field.

Also consider the evolution of the bar: an active, light-filled space with half a dozen new televisions, decent food, and 30+ types of beer is a far cry from its predecessor and offers one more alternative to game attendance that did not (in this form) exist in the late-'80s.

Throw in societal changes - aging of the population, further sprawl of the community - and an indifferent student body and the "game as event" just isn't as attractive as it used to be.

I think this is pretty much spot on. You make a great point about the evolution of not only TV's but bars. Syracuse now has a plethera of bar choices be it a more family oriented place like Tullys, Quaker Steak, Buffalo Wild Wings, The Wildcat etc to more adult scenes like Rosies, Saltine Warrior, and a variety of other places downtown that your options are nearly limitless. Even your local watering holes/townie bars usually have a half dozen flat screens with all of the top games on. I think this is definitely hurting attendance for SU, most of the younger fans in there teens/early to mid 20's are much more likely to watch the game at a bar or restaurant then they are to trek up to the dome and deal with parking, tickets, weather, etc.

I think the older fans/generation are more apt to watch at home as you noted as its just easier for them and probably helps the bottom line financially. As someone who has season tickets I disagree with any reason not to go to the Dome but I certainly can see why some fans do what they do.

 

[oldpinepoint]

I think this is pretty much spot on. You make a great point about the evolution of not only TV's but bars. Syracuse now has a plethera of bar choices be it a more family oriented place like Tullys, Quaker Steak, Buffalo Wild Wings, The Wildcat etc to more adult scenes like Rosies, Saltine Warrior, and a variety of other places downtown that your options are nearly limitless. Even your local watering holes/townie bars usually have a half dozen flat screens with all of the top games on. I think this is definitely hurting attendance for SU, most of the younger fans in there teens/early to mid 20's are much more likely to watch the game at a bar or restaurant then they are to trek up to the dome and deal with parking, tickets, weather, etc.

I think the older fans/generation are more apt to watch at home as you noted as its just easier for them and probably helps the bottom line financially. As someone who has season tickets I disagree with any reason not to go to the Dome but I certainly can see why some fans do what they do.

Speaking of the Wildcat, have you seen the waitresses? Tig ole bitties

 

[rmtsu]

While winning may help bring bigger crowds the Michigan game in 1999 is telling, coming off very good McNabb years, we were 2-0 with a storied program coming in, this should have been sold out before the season started (what hurt was that SU packaged the Michigan game with a directional Michigan game to discourage Michigan fans from buying up tickets, what it did was discourage SU fans apparently) and we still couldn't technically sell it out, still tickets available on game day.

So yes winning will help even in the past when we've had good teams it hasn't been a guarantee. In the past I would have a party (family and friends) on a game day and would have ~20-30 people come up for a game, usually one of the marquee games for the year (Florida, Fl St, Michigan, Ohio St., BYU, VT, Oklahoma...) and have never had problems getting decent seats for the game for everyone. I've had problems over the years even giving away my season tickets with a parking pass - good seats and nice parking location. Just not enough interest from the casual fan. For the BYU game I had a couple extra and tried to sell them to someone outside the dome for $5 a piece, the guy wanted to pay $5 for both, I ripped them up in front of him and told him, you said you can do better so now go try and went into the dome to join my group.

It would be nice to average a much higher number of fans and get close to a sellout for the name opponents but from what I see and hear, the average fan in the area is an orange fan when they are winning but not enough to go to the games. I went to Carousel a couple years ago after a game and people saw our orange shirts and asked if SU played and how they did. Not just a few but a lot of people. Gameday just isn't an event for enough people around here.

The other factor is that the younger crowds that filled the dome for football and basketball back in the early 90's has gotten older, with families, many moved away, and many just aren't as interested in going to the games for many reasons, many that have been stated above, but for most in this area, a gameday just isn't the event it is in other places that draw well or have bigger fan bases. I'd like to see the attitudes change but even winning won't be the cure all based on what I've seen in the past.

 

[SmilinBob]

Those are ALL things that would be nice, but the uptick in attendance seen if all of them are corrected and fixed would not make the Dome full.

Tomcat is correct - win and I think the large crowds will follow.

Winning is the key but it is a bit of the chicken and the egg because it certainly helps recruiting better players when you a full and active dome.

 

[OttoMets]

This is true anywhere. So I can still see the complaints of how come Ann Arbor can get 100k to games and we still can't get to the upper 40s. However I think (and I could be very, very wrong about this) syracuse is not nearly the city (size wise) that so many other major D1 universities are. Add in the fact the economy is down (although returning), and it doesn't surprise me to see us struggling to fill the dome.

However if we were to ask how to improve attendance, the biggest reason undeniably is winning (particularly early in the season to build hype). The other stuff would just help keep butts in the seats once they get there, but winning will get them in the door.

I did a quick run-through of metro area populations during basketball season; I think Syracuse compares favorably to places like Ann Arbor. 750,000 people (ignoring all the downstate alumni and people from other upstate cities) should probably be able to fill the Dome. It's just not part of the culture here.

Winning will give us a bump.

Improving game times will give us a bump.

And if the athletic department wants to take some affirmative steps to improve things, I'd suggest improving the tailgate experience on the Quad (and, if that's popular, on other open spots around campus) by offering tailgating spots to groups and arranging for remote parking and supplies drop-off. Embrace the activity. I'd incentivize early attendance by running a pre-game special on beer. And I'd coordinate carefully with other university organizations to make sure that other events don't conflict with games - give the students a push in the right direction by not giving them other social options during game times.

Of lesser importance, I'd make sure that the clumsy goofs during game presentation stop occurring and I'd find a public address guy who's a lot more restrained and professional. I'd work toward improving concessions (I could care less about this, but some people do) by increasing the scope and quality of what is sold. These things will go a long way in improving the atmosphere. It's a virtuous cycle - if SU makes the atmosphere as enjoyable as possible, more people will attend. If more people attend, the atmosphere will further improve and more people will want to attend.

 

[JeremyCuse]

I did a quick run-through of metro area populations during basketball season; I think Syracuse compares favorably to places like Ann Arbor. 750,000 people (ignoring all the downstate alumni and people from other upstate cities) should probably be able to fill the Dome. It's just not part of the culture here.

Winning will give us a bump.

Improving game times will give us a bump.

And if the athletic department wants to take some affirmative steps to improve things, I'd suggest improving the tailgate experience on the Quad (and, if that's popular, on other open spots around campus) by offering tailgating spots to groups and arranging for remote parking and supplies drop-off. Embrace the activity. I'd incentivize early attendance by running a pre-game special on beer. And I'd coordinate carefully with other university organizations to make sure that other events don't conflict with games - give the students a push in the right direction by not giving them other social options during game times.

Of lesser importance, I'd make sure that the clumsy goofs during game presentation stop occurring and I'd find a public address guy who's a lot more restrained and professional. I'd work toward improving concessions (I could care less about this, but some people do) by increasing the scope and quality of what is sold. These things will go a long way in improving the atmosphere. It's a virtuous cycle - if SU makes the atmosphere as enjoyable as possible, more people will attend. If more people attend, the atmosphere will further improve and more people will want to attend.

Improving the PA and food at the dome would go a loooooooong way in pleasing season ticket holders and making the entire experience better. I dont want to get personal but the current PA guys is really bad (thats putting it nicely) and the food/concession options are straight out of 1988. Seriously when was the last time SU upgraded the food options at the Dome? With companies like Dino, Gianelli, Tullys and others are dome dogs, pretzels, sbarro pizzas and nachos the best we can do? Even the Burger King stand is gone. As someone who tailgates I very rarely eat during the game but trying to get something to eat during a bball or Lax game that wasnt being served during Marvin Graves playing days is nearly impossible.

Also why not look to expand the beer/wine offerings at the dome. New York has a plethera of local breweries and is an hour away from 3 of the busiest wine makign lakes in the North East. Syracus is sitting on a gold mind and doesnt even know it.

 

[OttoMets]

I think this is pretty much spot on. You make a great point about the evolution of not only TV's but bars. Syracuse now has a plethera of bar choices be it a more family oriented place like Tullys, Quaker Steak, Buffalo Wild Wings, The Wildcat etc to more adult scenes like Rosies, Saltine Warrior, and a variety of other places downtown that your options are nearly limitless. Even your local watering holes/townie bars usually have a half dozen flat screens with all of the top games on. I think this is definitely hurting attendance for SU, most of the younger fans in there teens/early to mid 20's are much more likely to watch the game at a bar or restaurant then they are to trek up to the dome and deal with parking, tickets, weather, etc.

I think the older fans/generation are more apt to watch at home as you noted as its just easier for them and probably helps the bottom line financially. As someone who has season tickets I disagree with any reason not to go to the Dome but I certainly can see why some fans do what they do.

I'm thinking of how J. Ryan's beats me over the head with Facebook updates before every game. I wasn't of bar-going age in 1987 (or 1997), but I don't think we're over-generalizing in saying that bars of that era were a bad option for game-watching. More likely than not a dark room with one ancient TV with bad sound, no food, and a couple light lagers on tap. These current places are a whole different world - they combine some of the benefits of the game (a crowd of people) with some of the benefits of home (multiple angles, cheaper beer).

On that note, I bought three $99 season tickets when I moved here in August 2010. Three of us had fun, four friends joined us in 2011. We got three more last season, for a total of 10 people who weren't attending games in 2009.

The rationale: "we'd blow $99 in two nights going out; if we can get into the Dome for six games for that price, how could we not?"

The lesson for SU: keep at it with the cheapo season tickets at promote the heck out of the "games are an awesome, inexpensive social experience for young people, not all of whom even care about football" angle. To that end, actively encourage and enhance tailgating, please.

 

[OttoMets]

Improving the PA and food at the dome would go a loooooooong way in pleasing season ticket holders and making the entire experience better. I dont want to get personal but the current PA guys is really bad (thats putting it nicely) and the food/concession options are straight out of 1988. Seriously when was the last time SU upgraded the food options at the Dome? With companies like Dino, Gianelli, Tullys and others are dome dogs, pretzels, sbarro pizzas and nachos the best we can do? Even the Burger King stand is gone. As someone who tailgates I very rarely eat during the game but trying to get something to eat during a bball or Lax game that wasnt being served during Marvin Graves playing days is nearly impossible.

Also why not look to expand the beer/wine offerings at the dome. New York has a plethera of local breweries and is an hour away from 3 of the busiest wine makign lakes in the North East. Syracus is sitting on a gold mind and doesnt even know it.

Yep. And they did a terrible job during basketball season with their alternative offerings - that first level stand with the mac and cheese and chicken parm and stuff was closed for most of the year (and the backcourt was even closed on Senior Night).

I get the space constraints, but develop some different foods and sell them consistently at each stand. If the Chiefs can do it (and, yes, this has gotten publicity and been a small draw for them), so can SU. They need more pressure from the top to get middle management and the rank and file to be more receptive to customer preferences (and to the larger goal of taking pride in making the Dome the best place in the country to see a college game). That they would shut the backcourt and their one alternative concession stand (and move a 7:00 p.m. start to 6:00 p.m. on a business day) for Senior Night says a lot about their priorities.

 

[JeremyCuse]

I'm thinking of how J. Ryan's beats me over the head with Facebook updates before every game. I wasn't of bar-going age in 1987 (or 1997), but I don't think we're over-generalizing in saying that bars of that era were a bad option for game-watching. More likely than not a dark room with one ancient TV with bad sound, no food, and a couple light lagers on tap. These current places are a whole different world - they combine some of the benefits of the game (a crowd of people) with some of the benefits of home (multiple angles, cheaper beer).

On that note, I bought three $99 season tickets when I moved here in August 2010. Three of us had fun, four friends joined us in 2011. We got three more last season, for a total of 10 people who weren't attending games in 2009.

The rationale: "we'd blow $99 in two nights going out; if we can get into the Dome for six games for that price, how could we not?"

The lesson for SU: keep at it with the cheapo season tickets at promote the heck out of the "games are an awesome, inexpensive social experience for young people, not all of whom even care about football" angle. To that end, actively encourage and enhance tailgating, please.

Agreed, I wasn't of bar going age in 87 or 97 either but I think your premise is spot on. Bars from the early 2000's to now in many cases are worlds better, I cant even imagine from the mid to late 80's to now. As you noted Syracuse's best option is to continue the $99 season ticket option and try to enhance the experience the best they can. Wins are surely the best recipe for sucess but also trying to market outside are prime area (no I don't mean NYC) would also help. Syracuse should be out with season ticket plans and single game tickets at big events and festivals throughout the state. From Utica to the southern tier there are plenty of oppportunities. Hell set up a booth at any large winery on a Saturday (Hazlitt, Glenora, Three Brothers) and you will have thousands of potential customers you can pitch that you normally would probably never interact with.. Ditto for Beer Thursdays at Fx Matt Brewery in Utica, Brew at the Zoo in Utica/Syracuse, festivals and other happenings in Rochester, Buffalo, Albany etc. The AD/Marketing Department has so many avenues it has not taken an advantage of.

 

[MassOrange]

I realize there's an issue with devaluing the currency, but come up with a system of getting unsold tickets into the hands of local youth / high school teams for the sole purpose of getting butts in seats. Hook the kids on the experience, and hopefully that starts to overcome any jadedness on the part of parents.