Francis new podcast

[AZOrange]

Let's apply that to the Kaleb Joseph situation. Newton wanted to come here. He visited here first. He had connections to our program through Neumann-Goretti, his coach, etc. and was ready to pull the trigger on his visit. We told him to hold off because our top guy was Joseph, and we wanted to bring Joseph on campus before accepting a commitment from anyone. Joseph visited, and the writing seemed on the wall, and Newton decided to take the next best offer for him. That was pre-sanctions, and we had several open scholarships to play with.

In Monte Morris's case, he also wanted to come here. I believe he went on record as stating that he didn't have an issue with coming in alongside / playing behind Ennis. We didn't offer, he ends up at Iowa State and has a fantastic collegiate career. Meanwhile, we desperately tried to convince Rysheed Jordan to come in alongside Ennis, but he balked and ended up at St. John's. So clearly, we had room and wanted to bring in an extra guard [I don't know if you remember, but that year we had Ennis / Cooney in the backcourt, and no other guards [Gbinije filled in there as the backup at both guard spots]. Monte Morris was literally a bird in the hand who would have committed on the spot, but we passed--and the rest is history. At the very least, it shows that our assessment of Morris's capabilities was off-target to not even offer him a scholarship.

So while I acknowledge that none of us really know what happened behind the scenes in deliberations between players / coaches, the fact that we actively sought to add other guards in both of those classes suggests that something else was afoot. And in a couple of cases, that the staff may have mis-judged the potential of some of the guys we passed on.

Still wonder if our handling of Newton may have fed into the Green situation

 

[TCuse99]

What is misguided and unfortunate? Both Morris and Brunson came to our Elite Camp on their own dime with the expectations of receiving an offer. Neither ended up getting an offer and we decided to pass on them. You're acting like we were so loaded with guard depth over the years to justify doing so and coming up with these ridiculous scenarios and demands. Like the Tyler Ennis camp was going to be ticked off that we got another guard who was barely ranked in the top 100. Plus that thought doesn't even make sense when considering how hard we were pushing for Rysheed Jordan(another top 25 PG like Ennis) to join that class, but ended up with Ron Patterson instead. RF, explained the Brunson situation in great detail, so no need for me to repeat that. Nobody is saying that the staff is incompetent or tanking on purpose, but as I tried to explain on my latest pod is that they need to be held somewhat accountable for how things have played out with our current roster. Can't blame the sanctions for choices and recruiting decisions that was made years ago. People still wouldn't continue to complain about Tyler Ennis leaving early four recruiting classes later if you had guys like Morris, Brunson, or Newton on this roster.

It's obvious that you're in the camp that the staff can do no wrong and that's your right, but you keep asking questions in which it shouldn't be hard to know the answers of because it's stuff that has been discussed and explained time and time again. You're just not trying to hear any of it and falsely claim people of attacking and disrespecting the staff when we're just trying to keep it real.

Francis what an amazing podcast, really well done. I think we all know it's time for Jim to go. End of an era. Dude has no heart in it for the little things that help build rosters. Once we get a new coach and play some man to man I have no doubt we will get studs again. Height will not be such a ridiculously big factor in guards we choose.

 

[AZOrange]

Agreed on the pod. We made some poor strategic decisions and we are seeing the effects.

 

[pfister1]

Let's apply that to the Kaleb Joseph situation. Newton wanted to come here. He visited here first. He had connections to our program through Neumann-Goretti, his coach, etc. and was ready to pull the trigger on his visit. We told him to hold off because our top guy was Joseph, and we wanted to bring Joseph on campus before accepting a commitment from anyone. Joseph visited, and the writing seemed on the wall, and Newton decided to take the next best offer for him. That was pre-sanctions, and we had several open scholarships to play with.

In Monte Morris's case, he also wanted to come here. I believe he went on record as stating that he didn't have an issue with coming in alongside / playing behind Ennis. We didn't offer, he ends up at Iowa State and has a fantastic collegiate career. Meanwhile, we desperately tried to convince Rysheed Jordan to come in alongside Ennis, but he balked and ended up at St. John's. So clearly, we had room and wanted to bring in an extra guard [I don't know if you remember, but that year we had Ennis / Cooney in the backcourt, and no other guards [Gbinije filled in there as the backup at both guard spots]. Monte Morris was literally a bird in the hand who would have committed on the spot, but we passed--and the rest is history. At the very least, it shows that our assessment of Morris's capabilities was off-target to not even offer him a scholarship.

So while I acknowledge that none of us really know what happened behind the scenes in deliberations between players / coaches, the fact that we actively sought to add other guards in both of those classes suggests that something else was afoot. And in a couple of cases, that the staff may have mis-judged the potential of some of the guys we passed on.

I would love to have JB write a book that really went into detail about recruiting decisions. I think it would be fascinating to know what was behind various decisions. Obviously, that would never happen because at times he would have to say "We decided not to offer player X, because while he had talent, we thought he was a complete bozo as a person or we though his mother/father/handler would completely disrupt what we would try to accomplish with him."

As we talk about these guys, its important to remember that it isn't just an evaluation of talent that is taking place. It's possible that we elect not to offer because we think the kid might be more trouble than he is worth. I realize that is probably a stretch given some of the situations we have had in recent years.

 

[pearl31]

I would love to have JB write a book that really went into detail about recruiting decisions. I think it would be fascinating to know what was behind various decisions. Obviously, that would never happen because at times he would have to say "We decided not to offer player X, because while he had talent, we thought he was a complete bozo as a person or we though his mother/father/handler would completely disrupt what we would try to accomplish with him."

As we talk about these guys, its important to remember that it isn't just an evaluation of talent that is taking place. It's possible that we elect not to offer because we think the kid might be more trouble than he is worth. I realize that is probably a stretch given some of the situations we have had in recent years.

excellent post - expresses most of what I've been trying (unsuccessfully, apparently) to express in this thread

 

[cuseinseattle]

Francis what an amazing podcast, really well done. I think we all know it's time for Jim to go. End of an era. Dude has no heart in it for the little things that help build rosters. Once we get a new coach and play some man to man I have no doubt we will get studs again. Height will not be such a ridiculously big factor in guards we choose.

I'm going to listen to the pod a second time I don't remember Francis saying JB has no heart in it and needs to go. He said that if he is here one more year and when you look at the roster maybe Hop should get started now because it's not like next years team will be winning 30 games. Although I'm not firing Boeheim or getting ride of him I think he has earned the right to go when he wants. Please Dean correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[TCuse99]

I'm going to listen to the pod a second time I don't remember Francis saying JB has no heart in it and needs to go. He said that if he is here one more year and when you look at the roster maybe Hop should get started now because it's not like next years team will be winning 30 games. Although I'm not firing Boeheim or getting ride of him I think he has earned the right to go when he wants. Please Dean correct me if I'm wrong.

He hasn't been the lead recruiter in half a decade. Won't do the leg work. Sends assistants to get slaughtered vs K and Cal. So yes, in so many words it was very much stated that Jim no longer hasee the heart to be a good recruiter.

I agree he has earned every right to leave when he wants. 100%. Let's hope he realizes that time is now.

 

[cuseinseattle]

He hasn't been the lead recruiter in half a decade. Won't do the leg work. Sends assistants to get slaughtered vs K and Cal. So yes, in so many words it was very much stated that Jim no longer hasee the heart to be a good recruiter.

I agree he has earned every right to leave when he wants. 100%. Let's hope he realizes that time is now.

I agree that Boeheim should be out there more. I also agree that we should set a wider net and not focus on one or two kids and be left with nothing which I feel like has happened lately. When you said JB leaves assistants out to get slaughtered against Cal and K all I would say to that is Duke and UK are going to get kids and our only problem is not that Boeheim isn't active enough. We need to cast a wider net and not miss on the program kids like Francis talked about in the beginning of the pod. If you are expecting for Hopkins or whoever to take over and all of sudden now that we have someone that is out there we are going to get the Nick Richards/Hami Diallo/Guade Green's of the world I feel like you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

 

[cuseinseattle]

Great pod Francis. I agree with most of what you said. I liked Morris a lot and that still eats at me. I also liked Newton but wasn't big on the Nova kid. I admire the fact you had that positive moment when you talked about all these kids we could get to turn it around. I don't see it but I'm glad you brought it up. My only statement I would make for some of the people posting is that projecting isn't always easy. I imagine it is hard to evaluate a 16-17 year old and wonder what they will be like when they are 19-20. I work in commercial real estate and I'm constantly asked to evaluate things and make projections and sometimes I think a space is not leasable and I have people try and sell me stuff and I tell my people to pass on it and then they lease a good portion of space and market continues up and it's worth 2.5 million more or something. Then I have people looking at me and asking why we passed. I'm not making excuses I'm just saying that there is an inexact science to it. I'm guessing there are times when you think this kid isn't quick enough or he don't like his game for some other reason and then he gets better than you expected and you look like a fool. Hindsight is 50/50. I'm not suggesting Francis is wrong with his criticisms. I agree but just think this part need to be considered. Hopefully this wasn't brought up in the last 10 minutes of the pod which I need to listen to.

 

[supp]

I would love to have JB write a book that really went into detail about recruiting decisions. I think it would be fascinating to know what was behind various decisions. Obviously, that would never happen because at times he would have to say "We decided not to offer player X, because while he had talent, we thought he was a complete bozo as a person or we though his mother/father/handler would completely disrupt what we would try to accomplish with him."

As we talk about these guys, its important to remember that it isn't just an evaluation of talent that is taking place. It's possible that we elect not to offer because we think the kid might be more trouble than he is worth. I realize that is probably a stretch given some of the situations we have had in recent years.

Umm, if character was the primary consideration, then why do we have drama and character issues on our teams nearly every season? On talent and character, we've swung big and missed.

 

[billsin01]

Thanks for listening.

With Hop, he's preaching uptempo offense and multiple defensive looks. So I'm thinking he's going to target quickness, athleticism, length, shooting and position versatility. I think he'll do a better job trying to adapt towards the personnel that he's dealing with, rather than employ a system where you have to always get the perfect pieces to match. I like the recruiting philosophy that we have always had in the past with our most successful teams. Target the program guys to build a foundation and then hope to land a couple of five star/NBA type talent to take us over the top. Player development is going to be very crucial moving forward.

Appreciate the response and agree your take on the general philosophy. My theory is that there is always a balance between existing and skill and upside. Sure, if you land Carmelo or DC or Johnny Flynn or Waiters you get high marks in both categories, but guys like Fab or Etan Thomas or Rak others take a little bit more imagination.

At the same time guys like CJ Fair, Josh Pace, Arinze etc., come in playing at a certain level and while you may not have NBA upside with any of them, you get a pretty good player from day 1. Do you think with the volatility of some rosters that getting away from that player a little (or more accurately missing on those types of players) needs to be rectified? That recruiting needs to be tweaked a bit?

 

[AZOrange]

He hasn't been the lead recruiter in half a decade. Won't do the leg work. Sends assistants to get slaughtered vs K and Cal. So yes, in so many words it was very much stated that Jim no longer hasee the heart to be a good recruiter.

I agree he has earned every right to leave when he wants. 100%. Let's hope he realizes that time is now.

Eh this is insane. We've possibly had our best prolonged recruiting in the last decade

 

[Francis03]

I'm going to listen to the pod a second time I don't remember Francis saying JB has no heart in it and needs to go. He said that if he is here one more year and when you look at the roster maybe Hop should get started now because it's not like next years team will be winning 30 games. Although I'm not firing Boeheim or getting ride of him I think he has earned the right to go when he wants. Please Dean correct me if I'm wrong.

Great pod Francis. I agree with most of what you said. I liked Morris a lot and that still eats at me. I also liked Newton but wasn't big on the Nova kid. I admire the fact you had that positive moment when you talked about all these kids we could get to turn it around. I don't see it but I'm glad you brought it up. My only statement I would make for some of the people posting is that projecting isn't always easy. I imagine it is hard to evaluate a 16-17 year old and wonder what they will be like when they are 19-20. I work in commercial real estate and I'm constantly asked to evaluate things and make projections and sometimes I think a space is not leasable and I have people try and sell me stuff and I tell my people to pass on it and then they lease a good portion of space and market continues up and it's worth 2.5 million more or something. Then I have people looking at me and asking why we passed. I'm not making excuses I'm just saying that there is an inexact science to it. I'm guessing there are times when you think this kid isn't quick enough or he don't like his game for some other reason and then he gets better than you expected and you look like a fool. Hindsight is 50/50. I'm not suggesting Francis is wrong with his criticisms. I agree but just think this part need to be considered. Hopefully this wasn't brought up in the last 10 minutes of the pod which I need to listen to.

As I'm sure you figured out after listening that I never said JB had no heart and such. If Hop is out there leading the charge to close on guys like Ayala and Duarte for the 2017 class, then it's my personal preference to just start the Hop era next season. JB has clearly earned the right to go out however which way that he wants. So it's up to him with however he decides to go out and we'll just have to respect that. In regards to your last post. We can definitely look at some of the choices of players over the years with 50/50 hindsight which is always reasonable. My point was basically saying that the issues for those blaming our current talent pool due to the sanctions is pretty much a false narrative imo. The staff should be held accountable for their part in this where handpicked choices either didn't develop to standard or ended up transferring out. All of our misses recently have been with players that were chosen before the sanctions came down. It doesn't mean that our staff are bums and incompetent, but they gotta share some of the blame for where things are currently at with the program. Doesn't mean that things won't change because we could hopefully hit a cycle where our hit rate is back to normal that we're used to.

 

[TCuse99]

Eh this is insane. We've possibly had our best prolonged recruiting in the last decade

Probably one of the most off base posts I've read here. Wild. To each his own I guess.

 

[DoctorBombay]

Probably one of the most off base posts I've read here. Wild. To each his own I guess.

I disagree.
We've picked up some great recruits over the last decade, although the last 3-4 years haven't been as good.
I'm too lazy to look it up, if someone wants to list the names we've brought into the program.
In any case, I just don't see this dire, PROLONGED recruiting predicament which you keep referencing.

 

[Francis03]

Appreciate the response and agree your take on the general philosophy. My theory is that there is always a balance between existing and skill and upside. Sure, if you land Carmelo or DC or Johnny Flynn or Waiters you get high marks in both categories, but guys like Fab or Etan Thomas or Rak others take a little bit more imagination.

At the same time guys like CJ Fair, Josh Pace, Arinze etc., come in playing at a certain level and while you may not have NBA upside with any of them, you get a pretty good player from day 1. Do you think with the volatility of some rosters that getting away from that player a little (or more accurately missing on those types of players) needs to be rectified? That recruiting needs to be tweaked a bit?

Good post and question. I think the staff projected guys like Joseph, Patterson, Johnson, Howard, Roberson, Diagne etc as key core programs players that could produce similar careers like the guys that you mentioned such Fair, Pace, AO, RJ, Rautins, Southy etc. Unfortunately that has not worked out lately. So we have to wonder and ask several things. Were those players overrated in HS(all top 100 ranked)? Was there something lacking with the coaching/player development? Or was the staff just way off with their evaluations and projections with those players? What I really think the staff has to do when the Hop era begins and this is something that I spoke about towards the end of the pod, is for them to formulate a plan of how they're going to approach a recruiting class. It just seems like over the past several years that our assistants are battling each other out for players and handpicking them with JB just signing off. Everybody on the staff has to be in an agreement that player A and B is a good fit for the program and worth being recruited hard and coached up. The new assistant that Hop brings along could be a game changer. So that's something to lookout for as well.

 

[AZOrange]

I disagree.
We've picked up some great recruits over the last decade, although the last 3-4 years haven't been as good.
I'm too lazy to look it up, if someone wants to list the names we've brought into the program.
In any case, I just don't see this dire, PROLONGED recruiting predicament which you keep referencing.

Oh don't mind him...he's just a "long time lurker" who's a donor and knows JB and spent 90 posts or so slamming the program. You know these types.

We've had a pretty good collection of stars and 4 years guys. But guys like devo, Flynn, scoop, kjo, fair, rautins, ao, rak, fab, cmac, ennis, grant, triche, mcw, Dion. Also landed big recruits that didn't pan out like everyone expected Dc2, cooney, Harris. And got star transfers G and Wes. I mean the last class is battle, TT, and Moyer...bunch of guys in the league. Diagne, Bryant were killer misses. Quade too. And Joseph was a whiff. But overall? Come on.

 

[AZOrange]

Probably one of the most off base posts I've read here. Wild. To each his own I guess.

Ok hoss...

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

He's sending GMac out to battle Calipari 1-on-1 for the rights to Quade Green. AAaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhhh

Yeah this is crap. We had the kid signed, sealed and delivered. It didn't matter if Boeheim was the one doing the deal or Gmac. Fact is the kid changed his mind to UK regardless of what Syracuse had to offer. Kentucky is a better program. It happens.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

Umm, if character was the primary consideration, then why do we have drama and character issues on our teams nearly every season? On talent and character, we've swung big and missed.

We do? Examples.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

Hopkins and Autry are identifying targets and JB is signing off.

Hopkins identified Hakim Warrick. Boehiem didn't want him. Hopkins was persistent, and when we lost Hodge, Boeheim gave in. Hop turned out to be right. This is what assistant coaches at every school does. Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, UNC all lean on their assistants to do the work. They all go to camps and high school games. It's not just Calipari, Izzo, K, and Prino. Their assistants are all over the place. I attend Peach Jam and another camp down here almost every year. Hopkins and JB are always there, and so are the assistants at every major program. I saw Greg Paulus representing Ohio State at an Addidas camp last year. Matt Moyer was playing and he's from Ohio. Where was Thad Matta ??!

 

[SoBeCuse]

Hopkins identified Hakim Warrick. Boehiem didn't want him. Hopkins was persistent, and when we lost Hodge, Boeheim gave in. Hop turned out to be right. This is what assistant coaches at every school does. Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, UNC all lean on their assistants to do the work. They all go to camps and high school games. It's not just Calipari, Izzo, K, and Prino. Their assistants are all over the place. I attend Peach Jam and another camp down here almost every year. Hopkins and JB are always there, and so are the assistants at every major program. I saw Greg Paulus representing Ohio State at an Addidas camp last year. Matt Moyer was playing and he's from Ohio. Where was Thad Matta ??!

I realize all of this. My issues are with the players in question. The KJ, Patterson, Frank Howards, etc. Not being able to secure a PG since the immaculate Tyler Ennis. I don't think anyone would argue that sending GMac to wrap up the Quade Green recruitment VS Calipari was a big mistake.

We'll see how Moyer turns out. The players around Columbus usually aren't good enough for Matta and OSU. He's usually in the Dayton, Toledo, and Cleveland areas battling Izzo for the top guys in OH.

 

[two3zone]

Hopkins identified Hakim Warrick. Boehiem didn't want him. Hopkins was persistent, and when we lost Hodge, Boeheim gave in. Hop turned out to be right. This is what assistant coaches at every school does. Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, UNC all lean on their assistants to do the work. They all go to camps and high school games. It's not just Calipari, Izzo, K, and Prino. Their assistants are all over the place. I attend Peach Jam and another camp down here almost every year. Hopkins and JB are always there, and so are the assistants at every major program. I saw Greg Paulus representing Ohio State at an Addidas camp last year. Matt Moyer was playing and he's from Ohio. Where was Thad Matta ??!

Maybe Thad Matta didn't want him? Dayton was on him though.

 

[two3zone]

Yeah this is crap. We had the kid signed, sealed and delivered. It didn't matter if Boeheim was the one doing the deal or Gmac. Fact is the kid changed his mind to UK regardless of what Syracuse had to offer. Kentucky is a better program. It happens.

Maybe JB is on him earlier and gets him to sign earlier so it doesn't get to that point. Not saying that's what would have happened but the entire scenario hurt us.

 

[721Comstock]

I don't think anyone would argue that sending GMac to wrap up the Quade Green recruitment VS Calipari was a big mistake.

I'll argue it.

We didn't send GMac out VS Cal - it was against WorldWide Wes. Oh Lord

And since SU doesn't have an official bag-man like WWW , we lost. :bang:

We could have sent Boeheim, Joe Biden, and Vanessa Williams out, and still not closed on Quade.
His own HS coach stated that it was nothing that GMac did or didn't do.