Freshmen need to play more

[anomander]

Unfortunately I think it's pretty safe to say we aren't going to see these freshman other then a few first half spot minutes. As many of you I feel Grant has earned the minutes, and could definitely contribute if given the chance. But if he didn't play last night with the shooting woes JS was having last night then i'm afraid we will never see him. In those games where JS if off I think it would be a perfect chance to play Grant. He is arguably the best defender. He is definitely the best help defender on the team, and that's saying something as a freshman. He is always in the right place as the zone slides over, this kid is going to be a beast next year regardless so he will be in the Dion, MCW camp. As for the other 2 it's a lost cause. I think DC2 will come back strong next year, and be a productive player for us, but Mr. Cooney will not see the light of day. In terms of recruiting over, he is the definition. Especially when we land Whitehead

 

[pfister1]

In terms of being recruited over, the wildcard for Cooney will always be his shot. If he can ever get it together like people anticipated there will absolutely be a role for him regardless of who comes in behind him. If he isn't going to shoot 35% or probably better he may have a hard time carving out a role.

 

[jordoo]

It seems Grant is the most ready of the three but James is the first forward and by the time Grant gets in its usually with Cooney and Baye which is a group that struggles offensively and JB comes bacj withn the ogther guys.
DC2 hasn't adjusted yet, RAk is improving and becoming the man in the middle for us and Keita is much more experienced and better defensively.
Cooney needs to make shots and he's not.

The funny thing is that although Grant is the most ready of the three I think the other two could actually score more minutes easily just because of the make up of our team. That being said Cooney and DC2 are doing things to get themselves back to the bench almost imediately.

 

[anomander]

In terms of being recruited over, the wildcard for Cooney will always be his shot. If he can ever get it together like people anticipated there will absolutely be a role for him regardless of who comes in behind him. If he isn't going to shoot 35% or probably better he may have a hard time carving out a role.

without getting in a long drawn out debate about it I am in the camp that Cooney will never be in the 37%+ from 3 group, which he would need in order to play since he is so limited in other areas.

as for the other recruits coming in McCoulough is turning into a top 5 prospect, BJ is playing outstanding, and is about to crack the rankings. Ennis, and Silent G should start in the back court with Patterson, and Cooney backing them up. If we could have got McCoulough here next year, and convince Rak to stay I would have loved to see the front court of Rak-CM-CJ, imagine that athleticism

 

[Sgt Cuse]

this "ceremonious start" thing is just a bad JB joke that honestly needs to end. it really benefits no one IMO.

Are you kidding? It is the last remaining action that has JB playing people other than his top 5 for reasons other than foul protection.

The disparity of the ending 5 over the rest is now quite apparent. Anything that can help JB to get more playing time to the others is a plus in my book. It also keeps hope alive that DC2 could somehow play well enough to get more minutes.

And one benefit it could have is on recruiting. The next McD big can be told you will start but minutes will depend on what you do on the court. They all think they will be the exception and will earn their minutes - maybe someday one will.

 

[Gabjon]

this "ceremonious start" thing is just a bad JB joke that honestly needs to end. it really benefits no one IMO.

JB stated that he believes it helps the big guys develop and that he does it at the beginning of the game because it allows him and the team the maximum amount of minutes to recover if the team starts off slow.

 

[RF2044]

without getting in a long drawn out debate about it I am in the camp that Cooney will never be in the 37%+ from 3 group, which he would need in order to play since he is so limited in other areas.

That's a pretty indefensible position.

Also, see: the same thing lots of posters predicted for Andy Rautins, circa 2009-2010.

 

[Marsh01]

That's a pretty indefensible position.

Also, see: the same thing lots of posters predicted for Andy Rautins, circa 2009-2010.

I remember people were questioning Andy and how did he even get a D1 scholly. Worked out pretty good for us.

 

[SBU72]

The lack of playing time is really going to hurt the team (a) later in the season, (b) in the case of foul trouble or injury and (c) recruiting highly rated high school players.

If you look at the playing time so far this season that other ESPN 100 recruits are getting, Coleman, Grant and Cooney are all below the average for their respective positions. Coleman ranks 24th out of 35 in mpg for centers and power forwards. Grant ranks 35th out of 42 in mpg for forwards. Cooney would be 26th out of 31 guards (I'm not considering other redshirt freshmen, just ones on the 2012 list).

It is still early in conference play and the mpg numbers include mostly OOC games, but SU hasn't exactly played powerhouse teams so I don't expect these three to play very much down the stretch, which is unfortunate. I'm not at the practices and I obviously don't know every nuance of the 2-3 zone like JB does, but at some point you need to play your star recruits (especially when you've been in recruiting battles with Calipari over them), even if it weakens you temporarily. It would be nice to see freshmen develop over three-four years and be an apprentice for a year or two, but that's not the landscape of college basketball anymore. For better or for worse, it seems Boeheim is still in the "traditional" mindset.

Gee, playing Fab just a few minutes a game as a freshman didn't seem to stop Xmas from going to SU. Or X man playing just few minutes a game didn't stop Coleman for going . Or Obokoh. And having Waiters come off the bench stop MCW from attending SU and the same for Ennis. Naw. limiting the playing time of the freshmen dosen't seem to hurt the recruiting.

 

[Quazzum69]

Gee, playing Fab just a few minutes a game as a freshman didn't seem to stop Xmas from going to SU. Or X man playing just few minutes a game didn't stop Coleman for going . Or Obokoh. And having Waiters come off the bench stop MCW from attending SU and the same for Ennis. Naw. limiting the playing time of the freshmen dosen't seem to hurt the recruiting.

It is not a great precedence to top players that you might get pulled after one mistake or only play marginal minutes.

Are the top players that SU has gotten since 2010 really that bad and/or overrated by the coaches that their playing time reflects it? Other top players get more playing time and I'm sure that after a couple of seasons of the top players sitting on the bench, other players will notice this. Maybe it is already affecting recruiting ...

2010:
Fab Melo - # 1 Center (7 MPG in conference play)
Waiters - # 2 SG (16 MPG, eventual lottery pick)

2011:
Christmas - # 3 Center (9 MPG)
MCW - # 4 SG (8 MPG, 6 DNP including no NCAA tourney)

2012:
Coleman - # 6 Center (5 MPG)
Grant - # 11 PF (8 MPG)

2013:
Ennis - # 7 PG (???)
Roberson - # 10 PF (???)

Is there a trend here or am I just delusional?

 

[pfister1]

Maybe it is already affecting recruiting ...

2010:
Fab Melo - # 1 Center (7 MPG in conference play)
Waiters - # 2 SG (16 MPG, eventual lottery pick)

2011:
Christmas - # 3 Center (9 MPG)
MCW - # 4 SG (8 MPG, 6 DNP including no NCAA tourney)

2012:
Coleman - # 6 Center (5 MPG)
Grant - # 11 PF (8 MPG)

2013:
Ennis - # 7 PG (???)
Roberson - # 10 PF (???)

Is there a trend here or am I just delusional?

If it is effecting recruiting it would seem to be effecting it in a positive way. Our 2012 class has two pretty good players in it and our 2013 class is spectacular. The idea that we are even in the discussion late with guys like Noel and Dakari is different than in the past.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

Is there a chance that Cooney becomes a Mookie type? End of bench shooter that the fans shout for over the next couple years?

 

[iommi]

Is there a chance that Cooney becomes a Mookie type? End of bench shooter that the fans shout for over the next couple years?

No, because if he starts making shots, he'll be in the rotation.

 

[RF2044]

It is not a great precedence to top players that you might get pulled after one mistake or only play marginal minutes.

Are the top players that SU has gotten since 2010 really that bad and/or overrated by the coaches that their playing time reflects it? Other top players get more playing time and I'm sure that after a couple of seasons of the top players sitting on the bench, other players will notice this. Maybe it is already affecting recruiting ...

2010:
Fab Melo - # 1 Center (7 MPG in conference play)
Waiters - # 2 SG (16 MPG, eventual lottery pick)

2011:
Christmas - # 3 Center (9 MPG)
MCW - # 4 SG (8 MPG, 6 DNP including no NCAA tourney)

2012:
Coleman - # 6 Center (5 MPG)
Grant - # 11 PF (8 MPG)

2013:
Ennis - # 7 PG (???)
Roberson - # 10 PF (???)

Is there a trend here or am I just delusional?

I don't think you're delusional, but I do think that you need to factor who these guys were playing behind into your analysis / conclusions. Waiters, MCW, and Grant all have had more experienced, productive players ahead of them, which has impacted their PT.

A better question is: what is going on with the centers? Three years in a row, we've brought in blue chip prospects. Three years in a row, they are essentially showing that they are incapable of providing any consistent contributions [although 2 of those 3 showed improvement as sophomores; and in Fab's case, marked improvement]. I understand that big men take longer to develop, that 2 out of these 3 have been exceptionally raw, that defensively is often the biggest adjustment bigs have to make, and that JB doesn't play guys who can't defend. But it does strike me as odd that we've gotten back-to-back-to-back McDonald's all american caliber centers, none of whom were capable of playing substantive minutes [the story is still being written in Dajuan's case, obviously--but the early returns suggest that he is going to fall into a similar pattern as his two predecesors].

 

[CuseFaninVT]

No, because if he starts making shots, he'll be in the rotation.

Based on what JB said in the coach's show comments posted by SWC, it's not him missing shots that's keeping him out of the rotation, it's his bad defense.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

It is not a great precedence to top players that you might get pulled after one mistake or only play marginal minutes.

Are the top players that SU has gotten since 2010 really that bad and/or overrated by the coaches that their playing time reflects it? Other top players get more playing time and I'm sure that after a couple of seasons of the top players sitting on the bench, other players will notice this. Maybe it is already affecting recruiting ...


Is there a trend here or am I just delusional?

I think you do see a trend. SU is not trying to be a one and done factory. Of course it could affect recruiting, the players head strong on being one and done should think twice about going here. SU probably will lose a lot of recruits with that mind set to Kentucky. However, being the premiere two and done school in the NorthEast is a good position to be in. We've recently had Fab, Dion, and now MCW on that track. Would you rather have Dakari for his one frosh year or DC2 for at least two years?

The one and done recruiting strategy has more risk than two and done. Not only in assembling each class but long term with regard to program violations.

 

[Knicks411]

I've been thinking about the big men thing a little recently. So I wanted to look up some of the other big men that were around our guys in the RSCI rankings.

The next big guy after Fab ( who was 14th) was Patric Young. He played about 18 minutes per game and scored 3.5 points per game. Then one spot later was Josh Smith. Smith had a pretty good first year; obviously struggled with the conditioning, but played 22 minutes a game and scored 11 per game. Young and Smith were within 5 spots of Fab; the next best C were int he late 20's, Adrien Payne and Meyers Leonard. The C ranked ahead of him were Tristan Thompson and Jared Sullinger.

Rak was the 21st ranked player as a senior. There were very few big guys ranked around him; Kyle Wiltjer was a few spots ahead, and Chane Bahanen was 3 spots behind him.

I'd hesitate to look at this year, since it's so early. So here are my thoughts

1) The big guys we have been recruiting are very good, but not the best of the best. Fab was #14 overall, Rak #21, Coleman #18.
2) We've often had guys in front of those freshmen who have more experience in the system (this is often the freshmen from the year before who struggled)
2) That being said, it seems like the big guys ranked around our guys generally contribute more than our bigs as frosh, but they don't light the world on fire.
3) I thjink the frosh would contribute more if they got more playing time, and they'd probably develop more, but it might be at the expense of the team. Considering the last 2 big men have improved greatly as sophomores, this doesn't bother me too much.

 

[SmilinBob]

Anyone watch their practices? It may be possible these kids are making the same mistakes there as well so Jimmy doesn't have the time to have them learn in a game. Christmas played really well and had some hops even at the end of the game so I don't have a big problem with the PT thing, for that game. Boeheim has done this from the beginning and he 's had his comfort zone for big east/big games for quite a long long time. Hopefully these 3 freshmen take it out on the rest of the team in practice and keep getting better. Nice group of complimentary players but they haven't shown they deserve the minutes ...yet.

 

[MGP]

I don't think there is any magic number of minutes that any freshman is going to get in any given year. We have the luxury of being one of the deepest teams in the country the last few years. The freshman are going to have to play (for the most part) behind experienced veterans. When you are talking about top 100 recruits and average minutes played, who are we talking about? Most lesser teams that pull a top 100 recruit, that player will be one of the stars of that team and of course get a lot of minutes. If you're Kentucky, that's all you HAVE are Freshmen so naturally they will get a lot of minutes. I think that we are unique with the other few elite programs that regualrly get top 100's, and in those programs many of these kids will have to wait their turn. So using average minutes of top 100 recruits is a pretty skewed vision.

And to add to that, Frosh aren't getting more run when we're on the road in a conference game down 10. Just ain't happening. My 2 cents. Carry on...

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

I remember people were questioning Andy and how did he even get a D1 scholly. Worked out pretty good for us.

Andy had one year that you could call "good" with us. His soph/junior year, it felt like he could never make the 3 when we needed it or would have a careless turnover. Didn't he shoot like 35% from 3 until his senior year?

 

[pfister1]

Would you rather have Dakari for his one frosh year or DC2 for at least two years?

In some ways isn't it the same thing? Fab really made next to no contributions his Frosh year, so he was, in impact, a one and done player. DC II if he were to leave after his sophmore year, might look much the same based on what we've seen of him so far this season. I understand that he made some impact in the OOC portion of the schedule, but he didn't give us anything that we wouldn't have gotten plus from someone else on the roster. Maybe refer to it as a unique impact, giving us more than just minutes and fouls, something we can't just pick up from the next guy in the rotation.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

In some ways isn't it the same thing? Fab really made next to no contributions his Frosh year, so he was, in impact, a one and done player. DC II if he were to leave after his sophmore year, might look much the same based on what we've seen of him so far this season. I understand that he made some impact in the OOC portion of the schedule, but he didn't give us anything that we wouldn't have gotten plus from someone else on the roster. Maybe refer to it as a unique impact, giving us more than just minutes and fouls, something we can't just pick up from the next guy in the rotation.

Yes, from an on-court performance perspective, it does seem quite similar. For several of these people you are getting the one really good year. But I think there are two main advantages:

1. You get a more experienced player in the two and done. Someone who JB can relate to better. Someone who knows his particular role in SU better. Such as next year the difference between second year DC2 vs first year Dakari.

2. I think it can help with program stability. If they come in with this mind set, you can get two here, ie Fab and Rak. Rak and DC2. We made a play for what would have been DC2 and Dakari. Then if something happens, ie Fab or AO like, we would at least have a talented but inexperienced big at our disposal.

 

[CorduroyG]

Andy had one year that you could call "good" with us. His soph/junior year, it felt like he could never make the 3 when we needed it or would have a careless turnover. Didn't he shoot like 35% from 3 until his senior year?

andy was good his junior year, great his senior year. averaged 10.5 his junior year and shot 36.6% from 3, mostly coming off the bench. and he hit some huuuuge 3's for us in the 6ot game his junior year.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

andy was good his junior year, great his senior year. averaged 10.5 his junior year and shot 36.6% from 3, mostly coming off the bench. and he hit some huuuuge 3's for us in the 6ot game his junior year.

He had 5 really great games his junior year..but it was very uneven overall, especially in Big East play. He tore up Coppin State good that year in the early season though.

His senior year, I felt like he was really good and much more consistent.

 

[anomander]

Based on what JB said in the coach's show comments posted by SWC, it's not him missing shots that's keeping him out of the rotation, it's his bad defense.

this right here!! someone said TC was a good defender, and that got swallowed, and spit back up since the season started. i said his defensive abilities (at least in this boards eyes) are totally over rated.

And the Rautins comparison are too optimistic. You also have to consider TC is over 20 years old. This isn't an 18 year old Andy Rautins. AR had a much smoother shooting stroke, had far less movement in his shot. Also, the best part of Rautins game turned out to be his passing, I will go out on a limb and say this will never be a strength for TC. I think the Mookie comparison is closer then Rautins.