Frustrated Fans and The Search for the Guilty

[Townie72]

Barring some remarkable jelling of the players into a better functioning unit or some outrageous shooting, the Orange are facing a bad year. In spite of having some very good new players in Malachi and Lydon.

My sense is that it was bound to happen. Especially in today’s environment. We are in a down cycle driven by a number of things. A sort of mini “Perfect Storm” of factors.

But the reaction of many of the “fans” on here is gone beyond funny and has moved into the “sad” area. I’m actually embarrassed to read these myriad posts assigning blame. Even though some would say they were just asking questions like “Are we really committed to giving Hopkins the job when JB returns?” As if we can’t see through that. The guy's an acting head coach for 9 games and people are suggesting that he’s not up to the job because they don’t like the results of those 9 games?

Frustrated posters looking for someone to blame this downturn have blamed everyone and everything but Roy Danforth for these recent losses.

SU’s and JB’s commitment to the Zone were early targets and allowed those who been laying in the weeds to trot out old arguments for some M2M.They were silenced for years but resurrect themselves when things are bleak.

JB’s failure to recruit the right players is a frequent attack. It’s his fault! Are you kidding me. All of a sudden the guy can’t evaluate talent and can’t recruit the right guys? You are blaming the guy who built this remarkable program in the sticks. This isn’t like the Yankees or the Bosox who can go onto the free agent market and pick up a right-handed bat if they need one.

Then the frustrated among us are on to identifying individual players as those who are failing us. Gbinije for poor foul shooting. Cooney for too many failures to finish or too many misses. Lydon for not having the physical strength to play more effectively inside.

The coaching staff is a target for whoever is on the floor or on the bench. Not enough Coleman. Too much Cooney. etc. etc. Or how many people are in the rotation.

This is no one’s fault. It’s inappropriate to start searching for the guilty under the banner of “Accountability”.

I often wonder when I read this stuff what is that some like about the program that draws then as fans. If you don’t like Boeheim (or are convinced you are smarter than he is), if you don’t like the Zone, if you don’t like the ACC, if you don’t like the Dome … Than what is it you do like? Are you sexually attracted to Otto? Are you hooked on "Dome Dogs"?

 

[SBU72]

I gave you a like because you make some good points. So many years of ultra success has spoiled the fan base. I'm not sure if it is "accountability" that people are looking for rather than "why". Then of course if you determine the why then you look for ways to fix things.

To answer your last question, what draws people to the program. For me it was probably plain and simple, media availability/coverage. I went to a pretty good b-ball school and watched a lot of good teams/games. College b-ball became a favorite. In Rochester, SU gets probably at least 60% of the total college coverage. Even back in the mid to late '70s, thanks to Rosie. Bonnies got a fair amount but SU far out stripped them in coverage. (If Rosie had chosen Bona instead of SU, things would have been much different, at least for a while. ) So when you have to rely on news papers and TV coverage, and 1 teams gets the majority, its easy to become a fan. Now days you can be a fan of almost any team and get all the coverage you want.

 

[two3zone]

I gave you a like because you make some good points. So many years of ultra success has spoiled the fan base. I'm not sure if it is "accountability" that people are looking for rather than "why". Then of course if you determine the why then you look for ways to fix things.

To answer your last question, what draws people to the program. For me it was probably plain and simple, media availability/coverage. I went to a pretty good b-ball school and watched a lot of good teams/games. College b-ball became a favorite. In Rochester, SU gets probably at least 60% of the total college coverage. Even back in the mid to late '70s, thanks to Rosie. Bonnies got a fair amount but SU far out stripped them in coverage. (If Rosie had chosen Bona instead of SU, things would have been much different, at least for a while. ) So when you have to rely on news papers and TV coverage, and 1 teams gets the majority, its easy to become a fan. Now days you can be a fan of almost any team and get all the coverage you want.

Not sure how a fan base is spoiled with only 1 championship in its long history. The definition of spoiled would be Uconn.

 

[skurey]

http://syracusefan.com/threads/no-need-for.98585/

 

[br801]

Interesting observations, Townie72.

Downturns in performance are inevitable, even for programs as consistently successful as this one has been under JB. It certainly wouldn't be the first time that has happened in the last 40 years, although that reality seems to be lost on many posters here.

When JB states that winning consistently at this level is difficult and that success in the postseason never comes easily, many dismiss it as coachspeak. They shouldn't though, particularly considering how the sport is structured today.

 

[bballbeadle]

"These are times that try men's souls." "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times." And it's winter to boot! Did anyone read that article where Juli was acknowledging it was just awful at home and they're still reeling from it? (Very truthful is that one.)

I liked what you wrote, Townie. This is bad. It's hard. Now we get to see how some fan bases live, and we no likee. But I feel the worst for the players and second worst for the coaches. One question is: how can we be fans of character but also express our feelings of frustration (and doom)? Is it "wrong" to do so? Must we always be Pollyannas? (I am a huge Pollyanna in most situations.) I come to the board to become part of a community. I find it nourishing, comforting, occasionally cosmic. If there is a thread that makes me feel crappy, I don't have to keep reading that thread. Occasionally I play the blame game, too. (Why didn't they foul at the end of the game? OMG!!) But mostly I don't blame because it adds nothing of value to my life or anyone else's.

I think we are just going to have to walk through the rain as best we can, each in our own ways, but I come to syracusefan.com because here I know I don't have to walk alone.

Liberal Beadle

 

[Cowtown]

The Six Phases of SU Hoops seasons ...

1.) Enthusiasm

2.) Disillusionment

3.) Panic and Hysteria

4.) Search for the Guilty

5.) Punishment of the Innocent

6.) Praise and Honor for the Non-participants

It must be a really good season thus far, we're already in the middle of no. 4, and no. 5 is coming like a train!

 

[AlaskaSU]

Reading your post, the conclusion is that no one is at fault. It was inevitable. One could argue that there is a person at fault and it is JB. The sanctions hobbled us. JB has expectations and he expects people to be honorable. If he was the type to distrust he could have given a speech to staff warning them to behave. If there was a different attitude the stooges that surround every program might have been better behaved. We will never know if that is the case, but it is certainly a consideration.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Some fair points in the OP. But, as unfair as it may have been to blame JB for all of the sanctions debacles, the same can be said about the players who haven't developed, transferred, out, whatever, etc. He's responsible. Of course some bad luck came into play. Still, you can't pretty much strikeout on two straight recruiting classes and expect to remain a Top 10-25 team. We can spend another whole topic on scheme, instruction, fundamentals, and how much or how little is going on with that these days. I think it is COMPLETELY fair to question things be it accountability/fault when one sees so many lack of fundamentals displayed, meltdowns, bad turnovers, etc. to the point where the team often looks like a high school team in that dept. And there is fault. It's not some magic bad omen or anything. To be in the position where Cooney is having to play nearly 40 MPG for almost 2.5 seasons now and Gbinjie the same for almost 1.5 seasons leaves one certainly scratching their heads. Again, there is absolutely fault to go around and yes the future looks brighter.

 

[Orange Barrel]

Everything is somebody else's fault. And they need to apologize now. Publicly.

 

[OHIORANGES]

Yes. Ok, Ill admit it. I'm sexually attracted to Otto.

I often wonder when I read this stuff what is that some like about the program that draws then as fans. If you don’t like Boeheim (or are convinced you are smarter than he is), if you don’t like the Zone, if you don’t like the ACC, if you don’t like the Dome … Than what is it you do like? Are you s e xually attracted to Otto? Are you hooked on "Dome Dogs"?[/QUOTE]

 

[AlaskaSU]

Yes. Ok, Ill admit it. I'm s e xually attracted to Otto.

I often wonder when I read this stuff what is that some like about the program that draws then as fans. If you don’t like Boeheim (or are convinced you are smarter than he is), if you don’t like the Zone, if you don’t like the ACC, if you don’t like the Dome … Than what is it you do like? Are you s e xually attracted to Otto? Are you hooked on "Dome Dogs"?

[/QUOTE]
I get your points. 1) No one is ever accountable for anything, and 2) If you discuss accountability you are not a real fan. Thank you, I now realize that I have been a fake fan for the last 40 plus years.

 

[HOFCeluck]

We've had three straight classes fall short or expectations. Yeah, that falls on the coaching staff. It's ok to be critical once in a while.

 

[br801]

We've had three straight classes fall short or expectations. Yeah, that falls on the coaching staff. It's ok to be critical once in a while.

Of course it's okay to be critical. It's the way some people go about it and/or the frequency with which they do so that leaves some of us shaking our heads in amazement.

 

[Nicknack]

"One question is: how can we be fans of character but also express our feelings of frustration (and doom)? Is it "wrong" to do so? Must we always be Pollyannas? (I am a huge Pollyanna in most situations.) I come to the board to become part of a community.

Very well said, Beadle. To answer your question, NO, there is nothing wrong to express feelings of frustration or disappointment, and this is coming from a fellow pollyanna who tries to see the positive in just about everything SU related. HOWEVER, it's all how one does it which is the issue I sometimes have on this board. There are some posters who can be down right nasty instead of respectfully expressing their thoughts and opinions. There is a big difference between the two and this line often gets crossed.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Of course it's okay to be critical. It's the way some people go about it and/or the frequency with which they do so that leaves some of us shaking our heads in amazement.

Yeah some people take it too far. I'm excited for this freshman class and next years...I don't think this downturn is suggestive of things to come.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Very well said, Beadle. To answer your question, NO, there is nothing wrong to express feelings of frustration or disappointment, and this is coming from a fellow pollyanna who tries to see the positive in just about everything SU related. HOWEVER, it's all how one does it which is the issue I sometimes have on this board. There are some posters who can be down right nasty instead of respectfully expressing their thoughts and opinions. There is a big difference between the two and this line often gets crossed.

So the best thing to do is to call out all critical fans for being jerks. Got it.

Lashing out at fellow fans for being critical isn't any better than lashing out at the coaches.

 

[Alsacs]

Last time I checked this was an entertainment game business. Now going too far your absolutely right. People should not cross the line of down right nasty. However, expressing frustration and legitimate problems and bad job is part of the game.
The sanctions were directed at Jim Boeheim because he rubs some in the NCAA the wrong way so they wanted to stick it to him. JB can coach as long as he wants he has earned that but his layer development the last 3 years has been poor.

When people are paying money they have a right to question what is going on. I would take a frustrated fanbase over a lethargic fanbase all day long. The current state of the program falls on the shoulders of Jim Boeheim. We have a nice foundation for the future in Lydon, Richardson, Battle, Moyer and good pieces in Roberson/Coleman/Howard/Joseph/Chuwku. We need JB to right the ship.

 

[Nicknack]

So the best thing to do is to call out all critical fans for being jerks. Got it.

Lashing out at fellow fans for being critical isn't any better than lashing out at the coaches.

 

[Townie72]

I get your points. 1) No one is ever accountable for anything, and 2) If you discuss accountability you are not a real fan. Thank you, I now realize that I have been a fake fan for the last 40 plus years.[/QUOTE]

I get the sense that guys like you don't really get just how hard it is to do what JB has done at a school like SU over a period of 40+ years.

Georgetown and Maryland sit it a major metro surrounded by top D-I talent with millions of potential fans with the Washington Post and the Baltimore Sun as media outlets. When you walk out the campus gate at Georgetown you have M street and the city of DC, not Marshall St. To do what JB has done at SU is beyond a remarkable feat when you consider what schools with far better locations have not achieved as consistently.

For fans to start talking about "accountability" in a down period is to me unseemly. I'm not sure what "accountability" even means in this context. Does it mean the guy is on notice to "shape up or ship out"? When you talk about "accountability", you are of course suggesting there ought to be some "consequences", right?

The current downturn shows just how fragile these programs are. Miss on a few recruits, have some injuries, have some players who aren't quite as good as expected and things go downhill pretty quickly.

This current period shows SU is not immune to problems. And instead of talking about "accountability" you might want to reflect upon the remarkable consistency over a very long period of time (Four Decades)

I watched a Charlie Rose interview with Mick Jagger a while back in which Rose was teasing Jagger gently about the Stones claim of being the "World's greatest Rock and Roll Band". After all, no single Stones song can lay claim to being the best ever. But then Rose did allow that when you consider "the entire body of work", then if not the Stones, than who?

Same deal with JB. It's his complete body of work that shields him from cries of "accountability" in one of the very few down periods.

 

[HOFCeluck]

I get your points. 1) No one is ever accountable for anything, and 2) If you discuss accountability you are not a real fan. Thank you, I now realize that I have been a fake fan for the last 40 plus years.

I get the sense that guys like you don't really get just how hard it is to do what JB has done at a school like SU over a period of 40+ years.

Georgetown and Maryland sit it a major metro surrounded by top D-I talent with millions of potential fans with the Washington Post and the Baltimore Sun as media outlets. When you walk out the campus gate at Georgetown you have M street and the city of DC, not Marshall St. To do what JB has done at SU is beyond a remarkable feat when you consider what schools with far better locations have not achieved as consistently.

For fans to start talking about "accountability" in a down period is to me unseemly. I'm not sure what "accountability" even means in this context. Does it mean the guy is on notice to "shape up or ship out"? When you talk about "accountability", you are of course suggesting there ought to be some "consequences", right?

The current downturn shows just how fragile these programs are. Miss on a few recruits, have some injuries, have some players who aren't quite as good as expected and things go downhill pretty quickly.

This current period shows SU is not immune to problems. And instead of talking about "accountability" you might want to reflect upon the remarkable consistency over a very long period of time (Four Decades)

I watched a Charlie Rose interview with Mick Jagger a while back in which Rose was teasing Jagger gently about the Stones claim of being the "World's greatest Rock and Roll Band". After all, no single Stones song can lay claim to being the best ever. But then Rose did allow that when you consider "the entire body of work", then if not the Stones, than who?

Same deal with JB. It's his complete body of work that shields him from cries of "accountability" in one of the very few down periods.[/QUOTE]

I hope JB coaches another ten years.

But the man is a millionaire several times over because he coaches a game. He's not above criticism because of his past success.

 

[Alsacs]

I get your points. 1) No one is ever accountable for anything, and 2) If you discuss accountability you are not a real fan. Thank you, I now realize that I have been a fake fan for the last 40 plus years.

I get the sense that guys like you don't really get just how hard it is to do what JB has done at a school like SU over a period of 40+ years.

Georgetown and Maryland sit it a major metro surrounded by top D-I talent with millions of potential fans with the Washington Post and the Baltimore Sun as media outlets. When you walk out the campus gate at Georgetown you have M street and the city of DC, not Marshall St. To do what JB has done at SU is beyond a remarkable feat when you consider what schools with far better locations have not achieved as consistently.

For fans to start talking about "accountability" in a down period is to me unseemly. I'm not sure what "accountability" even means in this context. Does it mean the guy is on notice to "shape up or ship out"? When you talk about "accountability", you are of course suggesting there ought to be some "consequences", right?

The current downturn shows just how fragile these programs are. Miss on a few recruits, have some injuries, have some players who aren't quite as good as expected and things go downhill pretty quickly.

This current period shows SU is not immune to problems. And instead of talking about "accountability" you might want to reflect upon the remarkable consistency over a very long period of time (Four Decades)

I watched a Charlie Rose interview with Mick Jagger a while back in which Rose was teasing Jagger gently about the Stones claim of being the "World's greatest Rock and Roll Band". After all, no single Stones song can lay claim to being the best ever. But then Rose did allow that when you consider "the entire body of work", then if not the Stones, than who?

Same deal with JB. It's his complete body of work that shields him from cries of "accountability" in one of the very few down periods.

The Beatles. I mean Jagger has the longest run of alltime but the Rolling Stone are not the world's greatest Rock and Roll band of alltime or ever.
They didn't change music. They have had the longevity but their entire of body of work is not the GOAT.

 

[Townie72]

Last time I checked this was an entertainment game business. Now going too far your absolutely right. People should not cross the line of down right nasty. However, expressing frustration and legitimate problems and bad job is part of the game.
The sanctions were directed at Jim Boeheim because he rubs some in the NCAA the wrong way so they wanted to stick it to him. JB can coach as long as he wants he has earned that but his layer development the last 3 years has been poor.

When people are paying money they have a right to question what is going on. I would take a frustrated fanbase over a lethargic fanbase all day long. The current state of the program falls on the shoulders of Jim Boeheim. We have a nice foundation for the future in Lydon, Richardson, Battle, Moyer and good pieces in Roberson/Coleman/Howard/Joseph/Chuwku. We need JB to right the ship.

Here's what I hear from you.

I paid my money. I'm a customer. If I don't get what I want, I'm going to complain. I'm entitled. Don't tell me about your problems, just show me the results.

And on your point about the sanctions. Lots of this was driven by the Fab Melo situation. With Fab Melo I think the Powers that Be on the Hill could almost smell another NC and all the benefits ($$$) that flow from that. So everybody in the BB program and Academic Support was put under a tremendous amount of pressure to make Fab eligible. What we are dealing with now is the aftermath or hangover from that. I doubt if JB wanted to do any of it.

 

[Townie72]

View attachment 54683

That is just your opinion, Man.

 

[Alsacs]

Here's what I hear from you.

I paid my money. I'm a customer. If I don't get what I want, I'm going to complain. I'm entitled. Don't tell me about your problems, just show me the results.

And on your point about the sanctions. Lots of this was driven by the Fab Melo situation. With Fab Melo I think the Powers that Be on the Hill could almost smell another NC and all the benefits ($$$) that flow from that. So everybody in the BB program and Academic Support was put under a tremendous amount of pressure to make Fab eligible. What we are dealing with now is the aftermath or hangover from that. I doubt if JB wanted to do any of it.

No I am saying if you are going to make money when it is good and get all the donations and praise then when its bad I am still giving my money but I have right to speak up about the problems. I am not withholding support but when you get a bad report card you hear a lot more then when you get a good report card.

The problems should fall on the top of the pyramid not the bottom. Our problems right now are on JB. I am not calling for him to be out or resign but he has to own the current problems. The lack of depth, the lack of development is on him. If you take the praise when its good you better not complain when the legit gripping occurs.