Frustrated Fans and The Search for the Guilty

[Townie72]

The Beatles. I mean Jagger has the longest run of alltime but the Rolling Stone are not the world's greatest Rock and Roll band of alltime or ever.
They didn't change music. They have had the longevity but their entire of body of work is not the GOAT.

All the Beatles did was to reflect back at us our own music. And they were a relative "Flash in the Pan"

 

[bballbeadle]

Here's what I hear from you.

I paid my money. I'm a customer. If I don't get what I want, I'm going to complain. I'm entitled. Don't tell me about your problems, just show me the results.

And on your point about the sanctions. Lots of this was driven by the Fab Melo situation. With Fab Melo I think the Powers that Be on the Hill could almost smell another NC and all the benefits ($$$) that flow from that. So everybody in the BB program and Academic Support was put under a tremendous amount of pressure to make Fab eligible. What we are dealing with now is the aftermath or hangover from that. I doubt if JB wanted to do any of it.

Yes! And that season was also the Bernie season, with JB was holding it together in remarkable fashion. He told them that they were one of the best teams he had ever coached. And they were! But Fab was not suited for college. He was critical to their success. It was a pressure cooker of excitement and expectations. Then Fab fails a course. The rest is history.

I can't imagine that when someone told Boeheim that Fab had failed he said, "Do ANYTHING you can to make it right and don't tell me about it."

Also, it's the Beatles.

 

[Shenexon]

"These are times that try men's souls." "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times." And it's winter to boot! Did anyone read that article where Juli was acknowledging it was just awful at home and they're still reeling from it? (Very truthful is that one.)

I liked what you wrote, Townie. This is bad. It's hard. Now we get to see how some fan bases live, and we no likee. But I feel the worst for the players and second worst for the coaches. One question is: how can we be fans of character but also express our feelings of frustration (and doom)? Is it "wrong" to do so? Must we always be Pollyannas? (I am a huge Pollyanna in most situations.) I come to the board to become part of a community. I find it nourishing, comforting, occasionally cosmic. If there is a thread that makes me feel crappy, I don't have to keep reading that thread. Occasionally I play the blame game, too. (Why didn't they foul at the end of the game? OMG!!) But mostly I don't blame because it adds nothing of value to my life or anyone else's.

I think we are just going to have to walk through the rain as best we can, each in our own ways, but I come to syracusefan.com because here I know I don't have to walk alone.

Liberal Beadle

I love being a fan, from my seat or from this board. We're fortunate to have the dome, a basketball program with marked success, a football program that is creating incredible excitement, leadership that gets it, and a community of fans that can make every game a home game. We're in a great era of SU sports and though we're struggling this season, we're able to expect great things before and after JB retires. Babers is going to make the dome rock with "basketball played on grass". It's not just men's basketball & football that should provide great excitement for us as fans. SU sports programs are thriving and giving us lots of great moments. It's a great era to be a fan and we should relish our opportunities to participate. Tis a great day to celebrate our past, present, and future. Superb things are yet to come...

LGO!!!

 

[SWC75]

The problem is not when fans are critical. the problem is when they have stopped being fans. During a downturn, fans are going to discuss what caused the downturn and what is necessary to pull out of it. That means they still care. That's a good thing.

 

[br801]

So the best thing to do is to call out all critical fans for being jerks. Got it.

Lashing out at fellow fans for being critical isn't any better than lashing out at the coaches.

I hardly think Nicknack (or anyone else in this thread) did any of that. If that's your interpretation, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[AlaskaSU]

Misinterpretation is the problem. Whether it is intentional or not is the question that interests me. The critics are not saying that JB should resign!!! They are not saying that they are not grateful. They are not saying that the balance of his work has been detrimental. He is the Mick Jagger of college basketball but at the same time, for those who can hold two thoughts at once, there was lack of institutional control, and it happened twice. The reason why our program is down is because the endless investigation damaged our reputation and that affects recruiting, not to mention the actual sanctions.

 

[AlaskaSU]

Most of us know quite a bit about JB. We know that he was brought up very strictly. There were high, but unspoken expectations, and there was no coddling what-so-ever. That is how JB runs our program. He does not coddle players or staff. He expects them to perform. However, there are now so many players and so much staff that there needs to be more emphasis on control. Unfortunately, some players and staff should be treated as if they cannot be trusted to behave appropriately; but that is not JB's style.

There is too much cheating and that is why the NCAA rightfully wants tighter institutional control. Most fans reflectively blame all our problems on the NCAA. Fact is that our institutional control was not as tight as it might have been if JB were a tyrannical, vindictive micromanager that struck fear in the heart of players and staff, and that is why we are now suffering. There needs to be a happy medium between overbearing and delegation based on expectations of responsible behavior.

 

[Jack Hall]

I get your points. 1) No one is ever accountable for anything, and 2) If you discuss accountability you are not a real fan. Thank you, I now realize that I have been a fake fan for the last 40 plus years.[/QUOTE]
Accountability always matters. All of us are held accountable. So if one of us making 50k a year is held accountable and some kid on a 40 k scholly is held accountable, but a coach making a MILLION a year is NOT held accountable on the basis that he should be able to rest on his laurels? Not sure i buy it.
I am all for Hop being next coach whenever JB decides hes had enough. Imo they have both earned that right. But not sure they have both earned the right to be above accountability. recently the PS asked Hopkins about the recent results and he basically said: the kids are really playing their hardest but they arent hitting shots. While he might be correct in that assessment it also might be a bit of an oversimplification, ie why arent they making more shots? Who is calling the plays that result in these missed shots? Who recruited these kids that cant make these shots? But whatever i guess those nuances are too complicated and cant be addressed. So in the end he clearly said poor shooting (ie not the coaching staff) was accountable for the losses. I guess accountabilty does matter!! To the coaches it does anyway, but it shouldnt matter to the fans? Ok thats probably just the world we live in.

 

[Jack Hall]

No I am saying if you are going to make money when it is good and get all the donations and praise then when its bad I am still giving my money but I have right to speak up about the problems. I am not withholding support but when you get a bad report card you hear a lot more then when you get a good report card.

The problems should fall on the top of the pyramid not the bottom. Our problems right now are on JB. I am not calling for him to be out or resign but he has to own the current problems. The lack of depth, the lack of development is on him. If you take the praise when its good you better not complain when the legit gripping occurs.

Good post. even if the "problems" arent necessarily "on" you, imo not the worst thing to take SOME ownership, but to each their own...

 

[Ringostar57]

Nobody is guilty of anything!. Accountability? What an empty word. We should all be accountable to ourselves period; fini! The world ain't going to end if we have a bad year. Got to realize that this TEAM has little chemistry and a lot of limitations that they themselves don't realize and as Clint once said in a movie a man has got to know his limitations. Opinions are just that and everybody has one on everything and that is why we are here.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

The guy's an acting head coach for 9 games and people are suggesting that he’s not up to the job because they don’t like the results of those 9 games?

SU’s and JB’s commitment to the Zone were early targets and allowed those who been laying in the weeds to trot out old arguments for some M2M.They were silenced for years but resurrect themselves when things are bleak.

JB’s failure to recruit the right players is a frequent attack. It’s his fault! Are you kidding me. All of a sudden the guy can’t evaluate talent and can’t recruit the right guys? You are blaming the guy who built this remarkable program in the sticks. This isn’t like the Yankees or the Bosox who can go onto the free agent market and pick up a right-handed bat if they need one.

Then the frustrated among us are on to identifying individual players as those who are failing us. Gbinije for poor foul shooting. Cooney for too many failures to finish or too many misses. Lydon for not having the physical strength to play more effectively inside.

This is no one’s fault. It’s inappropriate to start searching for the guilty under the banner of “Accountability”.

I often wonder when I read this stuff what is that some like about the program that draws then as fans. If you don’t like Boeheim (or are convinced you are smarter than he is), if you don’t like the Zone, if you don’t like the ACC, if you don’t like the Dome … Than what is it you do like? Are you s e xually attracted to Otto? Are you hooked on "Dome Dogs"?

I (think I) like where you're coming from, but there are just too many specious arguments/misstatements of fact/illogical conclusions...

You're lumping everyone together, which automatically invalidates your claim that people have decided hop isn't worthy of the position after 9'games. For the reasonable among us, it's not the "results" of the 9 games that troubles. It was that, even after so many years on the bench, he wasn't ready to make in-game decisions. Those mistakes made him look bad. People noticed, they commented, and the pre-suspension hype and confidence in hop waned. Natural reaction when expectations are so quickly dashed.

People who don't like the zone don't like the zone. Do you expect them to mention it at the same frequency when it is less bothersome — in wins? No one complains about missing threes either when we win. "Old arguments?" The game itself is old. Do you expect them to generate new arguments for the same problems? The issues and concepts are the same. Are there ever any new arguments in favor of zone?

JB's recruitment of players has never been infallible. We have made 'mistakes' on the same level of every other program. But, we get who we get and we don't get who we don't get. You're spinning it in the most ridiculous way, suggesting that JB gets who he wants, and doesn't look at anyone who could have been a better fit. That's insane.

He brought success to "the sticks." This bothers me most of all. 34,000 fans in a domed arena. Thst is not The Sticks. It's New York. That is not The Sticks. Just saw a documentary about the Bills where Thurman Thomas was drafted to buffalo and when he arrived, he was looking for the skyscrapers. Thinking "it's New York, right?" People outside of NY don't consider Syracuse the boonies. And look at the rest of the recruiting world. Durham is no less 'stickier.' Ditto Chapel Hill. Kansas? Kentucky? Indiana. Other than UCLA, which other successful hoops program is in the middle of a 'burgeoning metropolis?' The best kids are now even going to prep schools that really are in The Sticks. Moot point. Not even a point. Just moot. And the dome is the best physical recruiting tool in the NCAA since it was built. Big advantage to JB, albeit somewhat diminished by the fact that we play a non-NBA defense in it. Kinda like a football team trying to recruit QBs and WRs when they play a Wing T offense.

Individual players. G DOES miss too many fts. It's uncommon for such a good shooter to be so bad at this. But it fits our perennial theme, so it gets mentioned. We shouldn't notice? Lydon not strong enough in the post. Well, derp. No, he's not. Shouldn't be playing there. But someone saw a Golden State game and thought it was brilliant to have a small forward there so he tried it. It was brilliant for us too. For two games. And that Small Sample Size was fool's gold.

Everything is someone's fault. Either individually or collectively. Sometimes, people recognize that it's 'bad form' to rip individuals or collectives for those faults.

You don't know what drew us as fans? Seriously? I would posit that we are either students, alums, or residents of the area. Like any other collegiate fan base. I take issue to your implied characterization. That those who disagree with JB's principals think "they're smarter than him." First of all, yes, in general, I think I'm smarter than him. This first part reminds me of the argument I had with a moronic high school classmate who insisted that every professional baseball player was "faster than (me)" and must be 'because he's a professional athlete.' I you not. But, whatever. No one who disagrees with JB has to be smarter than him. They just have to agree with someone who is even more successful than JB who disagrees with JB. If you want a couple of simple examples, take K and Calhoun. Disagreeing with zone is merely agreeing with man, which has resulted in more success.

What draws the fans? We used to play a fast paced, high wire game. We play in a building with 33k fans. That was enough to generate fandom nationally, back in the day. Half of that hasn't really been true for a while. "Sexually attracted to Otto?" You're off the rails here... Why are YOU a fan? You're a local, and chose the lazy man rationale for liking a team? 'They're Close and Familiar and all my Friends Like Them?' The Home Team refrain? IMO, that's the most lame justification, but whatever — you're still part of The Family. For townies or alums, it doesn't really matter. SU represents us, and vice versa, in some superficial way. That's our connection. And "for me, myself, personally"* — anything that represents Me is going to be subject to the highest level of scrutiny. Doesn't mean I like it less. It means I care more.

 

[Kowbelkat]

I write my check every year so go pound rocks, I am tired of seeing us run the unwatchable offense that has been the last few years. If you are happy with that offense then you are either blind or just complacent

 

[Zelda Zonk]

I get the sense that guys like you don't really get just how hard it is to do what JB has done at a school like SU over a period of 40+ years.

Georgetown and Maryland sit it a major metro surrounded by top D-I talent with millions of potential fans with the Washington Post and the Baltimore Sun as media outlets. When you walk out the campus gate at Georgetown you have M street and the city of DC, not Marshall St. To do what JB has done at SU is beyond a remarkable feat when you consider what schools with far better locations have not achieved as consistently.
.

Sorry, man. I like the bulk of what you're saying, but this, No.

Georgetown, sure. It's in a lovely area. But have you been to Maryland? My mother went there. She lived near there for ten years. I recall passing by it once, and thinking "dump." And its proximity to washingtondc is moot. Most of DC is no wonderland.

Your two newspapers are irrelevant. Completely. I'm shocked you brought up an analog news media. Even pre-internet, they were moot re: recruiting.

This whole a Geography argument is silly. If location were so important, the powerhouses would be UC Santa Barbara, Hawaii, thst school in Malibu, that little art college in San Fran where my friend plays, Miami, usc, and St. John's.

Instead, it's two Podunk towns in Carolina north, middle of nowhere Kansas, storrs, Kentucky (KENTUCKY!), where ever Michigan state is... Come on.

To do what JB has done, he needed a Carrier Dome. JB does not have nearly the success with a bog-standard 14,000 seat arena. No one will ever convince me otherwise. He doesn't have the personality and he coaches a defense that was banned in the nba until relatively recently. See my "Wing T" reference a few frames up. The Dome, son. Pearl and Sherman and DC and Owens rocking in Manley II has not so much the same impact.

 

[samspann1]

I (think I) like where you're coming from, but there are just too many specious arguments/misstatements of fact/illogical conclusions...

You're lumping everyone together, which automatically invalidates your claim that people have decided hop isn't worthy of the position after 9'games. For the reasonable among us, it's not the "results" of the 9 games that troubles. It was that, even after so many years on the bench, he wasn't ready to make in-game decisions. Those mistakes made him look bad. People noticed, they commented, and the pre-suspension hype and confidence in hop waned. Natural reaction when expectations are so quickly dashed.

People who don't like the zone don't like the zone. Do you expect them to mention it at the same frequency when it is less bothersome — in wins? No one complains about missing threes either when we win. "Old arguments?" The game itself is old. Do you expect them to generate new arguments for the same problems? The issues and concepts are the same. Are there ever any new arguments in favor of zone?

JB's recruitment of players has never been infallible. We have made 'mistakes' on the same level of every other program. But, we get who we get and we don't get who we don't get. You're spinning it in the most ridiculous way, suggesting that JB gets who he wants, and doesn't look at anyone who could have been a better fit. That's insane.

He brought success to "the sticks." This bothers me most of all. 34,000 fans in a domed arena. Thst is not The Sticks. It's New York. That is not The Sticks. Just saw a documentary about the Bills where Thurman Thomas was drafted to buffalo and when he arrived, he was looking for the skyscrapers. Thinking "it's New York, right?" People outside of NY don't consider Syracuse the boonies. And look at the rest of the recruiting world. Durham is no less 'stickier.' Ditto Chapel Hill. Kansas? Kentucky? Indiana. Other than UCLA, which other successful hoops program is in the middle of a 'burgeoning metropolis?' The best kids are now even going to prep schools that really are in The Sticks. Moot point. Not even a point. Just moot. And the dome is the best physical recruiting tool in the NCAA since it was built. Big advantage to JB, albeit somewhat diminished by the fact that we play a non-NBA defense in it. Kinda like a football team trying to recruit QBs and WRs when they play a Wing T offense.

Individual players. G DOES miss too many fts. It's uncommon for such a good shooter to be so bad at this. But it fits our perennial theme, so it gets mentioned. We shouldn't notice? Lydon not strong enough in the post. Well, derp. No, he's not. Shouldn't be playing there. But someone saw a Golden State game and thought it was brilliant to have a small forward there so he tried it. It was brilliant for us too. For two games. And that Small Sample Size was fool's gold.

Everything is someone's fault. Either individually or collectively. Sometimes, people recognize that it's 'bad form' to rip individuals or collectives for those faults.

You don't know what drew us as fans? Seriously? I would posit that we are either students, alums, or residents of the area. Like any other collegiate fan base. I take issue to your implied characterization. That those who disagree with JB's principals think "they're smarter than him." First of all, yes, in general, I think I'm smarter than him. This first part reminds me of the argument I had with a moronic high school classmate who insisted that every professional baseball player was "faster than (me)" and must be 'because he's a professional athlete.' I . . . . you not. But, whatever. No one who disagrees with JB has to be smarter than him. They just have to agree with someone who is even more successful than JB who disagrees with JB. If you want a couple of simple examples, take K and Calhoun. Disagreeing with zone is merely agreeing with man, which has resulted in more success.

What draws the fans? We used to play a fast paced, high wire game. We play in a building with 33k fans. That was enough to generate fandom nationally, back in the day. Half of that hasn't really been true for a while. "s e xually attracted to Otto?" You're off the rails here... Why are YOU a fan? You're a local, and chose the lazy man rationale for liking a team? 'They're Close and Familiar and all my Friends Like Them?' The Home Team refrain? IMO, that's the most lame justification, but whatever — you're still part of The Family. For townies or alums, it doesn't really matter. SU represents us, and vice versa, in some superficial way. That's our connection. And "for me, myself, personally"* — anything that represents Me is going to be subject to the highest level of scrutiny. Doesn't mean I like it less. It means I care more.

This is a great post. One of the best I've read on this forum, actually.

 

[Townie72]

Sorry, man. I like the bulk of what you're saying, but this, No.

Georgetown, sure. It's in a lovely area. But have you been to Maryland? My mother went there. She lived near there for ten years. I recall passing by it once, and thinking "dump." And its proximity to washingtondc is moot. Most of DC is no wonderland.

Your two newspapers are irrelevant. Completely. I'm shocked you brought up an analog news media. Even pre-internet, they were moot re: recruiting.

This whole a Geography argument is silly. If location were so important, the powerhouses would be UC Santa Barbara, Hawaii, thst school in Malibu, that little art college in San Fran where my friend plays, Miami, usc, and St. John's.

Instead, it's two Podunk towns in Carolina north, middle of nowhere Kansas, storrs, Kentucky (KENTUCKY!), where ever Michigan state is... Come on.

To do what JB has done, he needed a Carrier Dome. JB does not have nearly the success with a bog-standard 14,000 seat arena. No one will ever convince me otherwise. He doesn't have the personality and he coaches a defense that was banned in the nba until relatively recently. See my "Wing T" reference a few frames up. The Dome, son. Pearl and Sherman and DC and Owens rocking in Manley II has not so much the same impact.

The point I am trying to make is how hard it was for JB and SU to compete.

You aren't actually trying to compare Syracuse, NY with the Research Triangle of NC?

Lots of people have. That's why there are so many CNYers in North Carolina and so few Carolinians in Onandaga County.

Do you know how far DeMatha Catholic High School is from the front gate of the University of Maryland? (Hint" They are on the same street)

Do you know how much basketball talent resides withing a 3 mile radius of Maryland? Think of guys like Kevin Garnett not Andy Rautins.)

And on JB's personality - You'd prefer great personality types like Jim Calhoun, John Thompson and Gary Williams?

 

[samspann1]

Then the frustrated among us are on to identifying individual players as those who are failing us. Gbinije for poor foul shooting. Cooney for too many failures to finish or too many misses. Lydon for not having the physical strength to play more effectively inside.

I hate when people incessantly rip on Cooney. Don't you?

 

[Jack Hall]

The point I am trying to make is how hard it was for JB and SU to compete.

You aren't actually trying to compare Syracuse, NY with the Research Triangle of NC?

Lots of people have. That's why there are so many CNYers in North Carolina and so few Carolinians in Onandaga County.

Do you know how far DeMatha Catholic High School is from the front gate of the University of Maryland? (Hint" They are on the same street)

Do you know how much basketball talent resides withing a 3 mile radius of Maryland? Think of guys like Kevin Garnett not Andy Rautins.)

And on JB's personality - You'd prefer great personality types like Jim Calhoun, John Thompson and Gary Williams?

See now you ve hit the nail on the head! It IS HARD TO COMPETE!! And now SU instead of competing against gtown, ucon, villa, st j, etc is competing against duk, unc, virg, g tech, etc. things just got tougher. And lets face it, since we moved to acc SU has been down a little. Very tough adjustment. Look at providence, since all those teams left big east, most notably ucon who they compete against in recruiting most directly. Theyve landed more elite recruits than any of the teams who left. So that dynamic has not helped the teams who left apparently. And then you throw in the ncaa stuff. Man life aint easy but i agree w you as fans maybe we need to reset our expectations a little...

You mentioned the sticks. Ive been to ucon campus and i would choose SU campus all day long over uconn campus. 99 times out of a 100. Yet look at how many NCs uconn has . They have more Titles than duk in last 16 years. Who has the nicer campus? So how did uconn outperform the pure awesomeness of the Research Triangle for 16 years? They have one less title than mighty duk and unc combined in that timeframe. At some pt its just an excuse, yeah it matters but noone really cares...

 

[SBU72]

Not sure how a fan base is spoiled with only 1 championship in its long history. The definition of spoiled would be Uconn.[/QUOTE
That would be an extreme. I mean spoiled in that the 5 years prior to 2014-15, SU had 4 seasons with single digit loses. Previous 15 years, only 6 seasons of double digit loses. Now last year was down with the most loses in 8 years and the 2nd most in 10 and this year headed that way, people are getting antsy. When Su lost 14, many of the same comments appeared, then SU went on a small tear of going deep in the tourney. That has become the norm. Less is questioned.

 

[retro44]

 

[Eric15]

Barring some remarkable jelling of the players into a better functioning unit or some outrageous shooting, the Orange are facing a bad year. In spite of having some very good new players in Malachi and Lydon.

My sense is that it was bound to happen. Especially in today’s environment. We are in a down cycle driven by a number of things. A sort of mini “Perfect Storm” of factors.

But the reaction of many of the “fans” on here is gone beyond funny and has moved into the “sad” area. I’m actually embarrassed to read these myriad posts assigning blame. Even though some would say they were just asking questions like “Are we really committed to giving Hopkins the job when JB returns?” As if we can’t see through that. The guy's an acting head coach for 9 games and people are suggesting that he’s not up to the job because they don’t like the results of those 9 games?

Frustrated posters looking for someone to blame this downturn have blamed everyone and everything but Roy Danforth for these recent losses.

SU’s and JB’s commitment to the Zone were early targets and allowed those who been laying in the weeds to trot out old arguments for some M2M.They were silenced for years but resurrect themselves when things are bleak.

JB’s failure to recruit the right players is a frequent attack. It’s his fault! Are you kidding me. All of a sudden the guy can’t evaluate talent and can’t recruit the right guys? You are blaming the guy who built this remarkable program in the sticks. This isn’t like the Yankees or the Bosox who can go onto the free agent market and pick up a right-handed bat if they need one.

Then the frustrated among us are on to identifying individual players as those who are failing us. Gbinije for poor foul shooting. Cooney for too many failures to finish or too many misses. Lydon for not having the physical strength to play more effectively inside.

The coaching staff is a target for whoever is on the floor or on the bench. Not enough Coleman. Too much Cooney. etc. etc. Or how many people are in the rotation.

This is no one’s fault. It’s inappropriate to start searching for the guilty under the banner of “Accountability”.

I often wonder when I read this stuff what is that some like about the program that draws then as fans. If you don’t like Boeheim (or are convinced you are smarter than he is), if you don’t like the Zone, if you don’t like the ACC, if you don’t like the Dome … Than what is it you do like? Are you s e xually attracted to Otto? Are you hooked on "Dome Dogs"?

So in other words, we're just like every other sports fanbase in the history of major college and professional sports?