FSU vs The ACC

[longtimefan]

Two 32 team super conferences, one in the ne, mid west, San Fran going north on the west coast, the other in the south starting in Virginia.

obviously can’t be rigid if the numbers don’t line up, might have to adjust the border.

4 x 8 Geographic based divisions, 7 division games, 1 each in the other three, 2 vs the other conference (randomly selected home/away games)

post season is 4 x 16 flights. Top 16 national championship.

Gives you logistic scheduling sanity, creates rivalries with real stakes. Everyone has a 13-16 game season with real competitive balance to post season games.

Sounds like the NFL. We don't need another.

 

[Van1144]

Now FSU not making the final 4 is starting to make sense. I'll bet dollar to donut that it was for them to leave the ACC and this may be their "loophole". Sorry but my mistrust for anything Big 10 just makes think things like this.

Here is the problem FSU will face. Since the millennium only the SEC has won more national championships than the ACC. Also the embarrassing loss it had against GA, sure it wasn’t Savanah State that plaid that game? And the committee didn’t use the ACC as a conference as a reason for not admitting them, it was about how inept they were offensively. That said, they can leave as long as they pay, how much they pay will set the stone or watermark on how much it’s going to cost you and the new conference that wants you. Than others that wish to follow may. We are talking half billion dollars and gross looking lawyer fees. I can’t see a court overturning something you signed letting them off the hook, as we are talking 15 other universities in the balance. No, it will take ESPN to get involved as the owner of the rights for both the ACC and SEC! Do they bend for 1 university.

 

[CousCuse]

Eh, no. They signed the deal. Unless there was a line in there about being competitive financially with other conferences (there’s not), they live with the ramifications.

They will make a deal before it gets to court. The media people don't want some kind of precedent against GOR's, which could be a possible outcome.

 

[Cheriehoop]

Eh, no. They signed the deal. Unless there was a line in there about being competitive financially with other conferences (there’s not), they live with the ramifications.

I’m a little confused (not a rare status) why if FSU’s complaint has to do with the amount of the ESPN contract with the ACC, why would they sue the ACC, instead of ESPN? It would make more sense, if there’s any sense involved, at least to me. It seems to me that it’s all just a smokescreen for wanting to leave the conference and negotiate the GOR’s cost for them to leave, with any reasoning for it seeming irrelevant. I don’t know if they are hiding back room dealing to break up the conference promoted by boosters, other conferences, mega media interests, political reasons, trying to eliminate any competition by private universities and weaken their overall influence etc. Crazy stuff to me.

 

[Ozone!]

Last night’s game vs UGA proved why they didn’t belong in the playoffs!

 

[SURules]

The thing I don’t understand here is how any conference or affiliation after this signs a long term deal with FSU…they are not trustworthy contracts or otherwise…this is going to kill them

I’ve heard this from a few Big Ten fans as well as they are really questioning why FSU should be apart of their conference.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Here is the problem FSU will face. Since the millennium only the SEC has won more national championships than the ACC. Also the embarrassing loss it had against GA, sure it wasn’t Savanah State that plaid that game? And the committee didn’t use the ACC as a conference as a reason for not admitting them, it was about how inept they were offensively. That said, they can leave as long as they pay, how much they pay will set the stone or watermark on how much it’s going to cost you and the new conference that wants you. Than others that wish to follow may. We are talking half billion dollars and gross looking lawyer fees. I can’t see a court overturning something you signed letting them off the hook, as we are talking 15 other universities in the balance. No, it will take ESPN to get involved as the owner of the rights for both the ACC and SEC! Do they bend for 1 university.

I am also not a fan of plaid.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I’m a little confused (not a rare status) why if FSU’s complaint has to do with the amount of the ESPN contract with the ACC, why would they sue the ACC, instead of ESPN? It would make more sense, if there’s any sense involved, at least to me. It seems to me that it’s all just a smokescreen for wanting to leave the conference and negotiate the GOR’s cost for them to leave, with any reasoning for it seeming irrelevant. I don’t know if they are hiding back room dealing to break up the conference promoted by boosters, political reasons, trying to eliminate any competition by private universities and weaken their overall influence. Crazy stuff to me.

Precisely, Cherie. That's my argument, too. ESPN made all the decisions that financially disadvantaged the ACC. For Florida State to leave them out of the court case is chickenshit, because they want ESPN to pay for them to move to another league that pays more. Without ESPN as a party, Florida State's case is horse hockey, other than perhaps the argument that the price of departure would have a negative impact on the Florida state economy, which - at half a billion dollars - is not an empty cause of action. But ESPN most definitely should be part of this case.

 

[MikeSU02]

I think people believe that a lot of schools have a lot more on hand cash to throw around for stuff like this than they do. And also fundraising for athletics as well. This wasn’t the case, in general, but was exacerbated by COVID.

FSU can leave today if they had the resources and landing spot. But they are still here.

It’s funny to joke about SMU putting $15bn worth of wealth in a single room at one time of boosters that support the football team. That’s a unicorn situation.

 

[HtownOrange]

They will make a deal before it gets to court. The media people don't want some kind of precedent against GOR's, which could be a possible outcome.

I respectfully disagree with your opinion. Please explain why ESPN and the ACC (as well as each individual ACC school) should agree to a deal with FSU that only benefits FSU. FSU can pay the withdrawal fee and buy back their rights at any time. What FSU cannot do is fund the withdrawal fee and the TV rights buyback. What benefit does ESPN and the ACC receive in allowing a sole school throwing a tantrum as if they are a three-year-old?

If there is not a benefit to ESPN and the ACC, there is no basis to negotiate with FSU.

 

[HtownOrange]

I’m a little confused (not a rare status) why if FSU’s complaint has to do with the amount of the ESPN contract with the ACC, why would they sue the ACC, instead of ESPN? It would make more sense, if there’s any sense involved, at least to me. It seems to me that it’s all just a smokescreen for wanting to leave the conference and negotiate the GOR’s cost for them to leave, with any reasoning for it seeming irrelevant. I don’t know if they are hiding back room dealing to break up the conference promoted by boosters, political reasons, trying to eliminate any competition by private universities and weaken their overall influence. Crazy stuff to me.

Because FSU cannot actually sue ESPN if they want into the SEC as ESPN owns at least a share of the SECN like the ACCN.

In truth, you are spot on. The lawsuit is a means of an attempt to "scare" other schools and the ACC to cave to their demands. Never mind the fact that the ACC and most schools have lawyers and law schools that meet or exceed the level of FSU's lawyers and law school, no one flinched.

Looking back a the SEC deal with UT and OU, the SEC invited and agreed to take UT and OU AFTER the Big 12 deal expired. UT and OU looked into breaking the GOR, it was too expensive and deemed not likely to work. Then, UT and OU looked into buying back their rights, it was deemed too expensive. Eventually, the Big12 worked out a deal wherein they agreed that UT and OU could leave a year early.

Likewise, USC and UCLA were accepted into the B1G AFTER the present deal is completed. USC and UCLA looked into breaking the GOR, it was too expensive and risky with no likely success. Thus, waiting until the deal expired before leaving the PAC 12, there were no legal matters to address.

Applied to FSU, the deal is far too long for anyone to simply roll over. FSU has only floated a $100MM exit, which is not sufficient to cover the withdrawal fee, let alone buy back their TV rights. Further, FSU does not have access to $100MM to follow through, even had the ACC and ESPN agreed to the offer.

Which brings us back to your reasoned and excellent assessment: FSU will need to sue ESPN but also needs ESPN for a landing spot in the SEC. Thus, FSU can only assault the ACC and hope for a deal.

 

[Don]

Why do people keep thinking 64 teams super conference league is going to happen? Are you missing the reason FSU and Clemson and maybe North Carolina and Virginia want to leave. They dont want dead weight getting the same money they do, they have no intent to share money with teams that are not as good as them. They dont care about teams that are mediocre , I dont think ESPN or Fox cares about that either , if you can turn TV's on or bring people with you, or draw like 40 -50 thousand at home games or preferably all of the above, they dont want you period. Its go big or go home time nobody is going to give you money for history , or potential you have to have something they want and pull your own weight

 

[HtownOrange]

Why do people keep thinking 64 teams super conference league is going to happen? Are you missing the reason FSU and Clemson and maybe North Carolina and Virginia want to leave. They dont want dead weight getting the same money they do, they have no intent to share money with teams that are not as good as them. They dont care about teams that are mediocre , I dont think ESPN or Fox cares about that either , if you can turn TV's on or bring people with you, or draw like 40 -50 thousand at home games or preferably all of the above, they dont want you period. Its go big or go home time nobody is going to give you money for history , or potential you have to have something they want and pull your own weight

Most people agree that the college landscape will not work and maintain sufficient fans to do away with too many teams. The number of teams necessary to survive and maintain sufficient revenue (read eyes on TV and commercials played). The problem CFB has is that most fans are not casual fans that will watch if their team(s) is not playing. Sure, some games will draw interest, but most fans will be lost. Further, the smaller the pool of top level teams means that many of the teams become losers. Sure, some surmise there will still be the lesser conferences (G-8?) but that will not work for long. People ill not watch their team be the Washington Generals for a paycheck, if their team cannot win, fans will not watch. Just my perspective.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Because FSU cannot actually sue ESPN if they want into the SEC as ESPN owns at least a share of the SECN like the ACCN.

In truth, you are spot on. The lawsuit is a means of an attempt to "scare" other schools and the ACC to cave to their demands. Never mind the fact that the ACC and most schools have lawyers and law schools that meet or exceed the level of FSU's lawyers and law school, no one flinched.

Looking back a the SEC deal with UT and OU, the SEC invited and agreed to take UT and OU AFTER the Big 12 deal expired. UT and OU looked into breaking the GOR, it was too expensive and deemed not likely to work. Then, UT and OU looked into buying back their rights, it was deemed too expensive. Eventually, the Big12 worked out a deal wherein they agreed that UT and OU could leave a year early.

Likewise, USC and UCLA were accepted into the B1G AFTER the present deal is completed. USC and UCLA looked into breaking the GOR, it was too expensive and risky with no likely success. Thus, waiting until the deal expired before leaving the PAC 12, there were no legal matters to address.

Applied to FSU, the deal is far too long for anyone to simply roll over. FSU has only floated a $100MM exit, which is not sufficient to cover the withdrawal fee, let alone buy back their TV rights. Further, FSU does not have access to $100MM to follow through, even had the ACC and ESPN agreed to the offer.

Which brings us back to your reasoned and excellent assessment: FSU will need to sue ESPN but also needs ESPN for a landing spot in the SEC. Thus, FSU can only assault the ACC and hope for a deal.

You're exactly right. And unless FSU has the courage to include ESPN in the lawsuit - because all the alleged harm is the direct result of ESPN's actions - then FSU has no shot in hell, other than their state budget can't afford it, in which the "public policy" argument might be used to reduce the buy-out amount.

 

[richmondcuse03]

You're exactly right. And unless FSU has the courage to include ESPN in the lawsuit - because all the alleged harm is the direct result of ESPN's actions - then FSU has no shot in hell, other than their state budget can't afford it, in which the "public policy" argument might be used to reduce the buy-out amount.

And if they do that, they may as well allege that JW as an ESPN exec conspired with his Alma mater where he’d later run the AD to screw over FSU. I’m surprised they didn’t try that yet.

 

[HtownOrange]

You're exactly right. And unless FSU has the courage to include ESPN in the lawsuit - because all the alleged harm is the direct result of ESPN's actions - then FSU has no shot in hell, other than their state budget can't afford it, in which the "public policy" argument might be used to reduce the buy-out amount.

I responded to that matter earlier in the thread. "Public Policy" is probably not a very good argument for FSU to make.

 

[NKR1978]

They will make a deal before it gets to court. The media people don't want some kind of precedent against GOR's, which could be a possible outcome.

Making a deal is a precedent against GOR.

 

[Cusefan78]

FSU owes the ACC and ESPN their TV rights, per the deal they helped negotiate and then signed. If they were forced to sign it at gun point I think you would be making sense right now.

The problem isn’t ESPN and FOX it’s CFB not having anyone actually looking out for the collective best interests of the sport. They are making deals based on their own interests as businesses must.

Exactly. There is zero leadership and the ncaa has been weakened

 

[WoadBlue]

Why do people keep thinking 64 teams super conference league is going to happen? Are you missing the reason FSU and Clemson and maybe North Carolina and Virginia want to leave. They dont want dead weight getting the same money they do, they have no intent to share money with teams that are not as good as them. They dont care about teams that are mediocre , I dont think ESPN or Fox cares about that either , if you can turn TV's on or bring people with you, or draw like 40 -50 thousand at home games or preferably all of the above, they dont want you period. Its go big or go home time nobody is going to give you money for history , or potential you have to have something they want and pull your own weight

Let's get the language right. 'Dead weight' has absolutely nothing to do with teams being as good as other teams. TV does NOT pay for Wins. Every game then would be of equal value because every game has both a Winner and a Loser. TV pays for fans who watch the games. That means that the more a league has schools that in and of themselves cannot draw fans to watch, the less TV money that league can get.

The ACC has major issues in that regard. New England and NY both have very little interest in CFB per capita, easily the least in the country. And that region also produces very little talent. And that keeps the problem growing, because there is not nearly enough Home Grown talent to inspire locals to care about CFB. Then the ACC has Wake, the smallest school in a Power/Major conference since the SWC died (Rice was permanently demoted). Literally, Wake brings almost 0 'unique' people watching ACC football, because virtually 100% who watch would do so even as Wake alums because of UNC, NCSU, VT, UVA. Clemson, etc.

Schools that have the much easier time being huge in TV numbers are larger state flagship and /or land grant schools that are in what is accorded a Major conference. The ACC has a dearth of those schools and far too many smallish private schools.

 

[longtimefan]

Let's get the language right. 'Dead weight' has absolutely nothing to do with teams being as good as other teams. TV does NOT pay for Wins. Every game then would be of equal value because every game has both a Winner and a Loser. TV pays for fans who watch the games. That means that the more a league has schools that in and of themselves cannot draw fans to watch, the less TV money that league can get.

The ACC has major issues in that regard. New England and NY both have very little interest in CFB per capita, easily the least in the country. And that region also produces very little talent. And that keeps the problem growing, because there is not nearly enough Home Grown talent to inspire locals to care about CFB. Then the ACC has Wake, the smallest school in a Power/Major conference since the SWC died (Rice was permanently demoted). Literally, Wake brings almost 0 'unique' people watching ACC football, because virtually 100% who watch would do so even as Wake alums because of UNC, NCSU, VT, UVA. Clemson, etc.

Schools that have the much easier time being huge in TV numbers are larger state flagship and /or land grant schools that are in what is accorded a Major conference. The ACC has a dearth of those schools and far too many smallish private schools.

Flagship snob.

 

[SURules]

Let's get the language right. 'Dead weight' has absolutely nothing to do with teams being as good as other teams. TV does NOT pay for Wins. Every game then would be of equal value because every game has both a Winner and a Loser. TV pays for fans who watch the games. That means that the more a league has schools that in and of themselves cannot draw fans to watch, the less TV money that league can get.

The ACC has major issues in that regard. New England and NY both have very little interest in CFB per capita, easily the least in the country. And that region also produces very little talent. And that keeps the problem growing, because there is not nearly enough Home Grown talent to inspire locals to care about CFB. Then the ACC has Wake, the smallest school in a Power/Major conference since the SWC died (Rice was permanently demoted). Literally, Wake brings almost 0 'unique' people watching ACC football, because virtually 100% who watch would do so even as Wake alums because of UNC, NCSU, VT, UVA. Clemson, etc.

Schools that have the much easier time being huge in TV numbers are larger state flagship and /or land grant schools that are in what is accorded a Major conference. The ACC has a dearth of those schools and far too many smallish private schools.

A small percentage of a very very very large pie can still be bigger than what other states or regions deliver. NYC is by far the largest city in the USA and it isn’t even close. SU delivers NYC as much as anyone. SU just needs to get back to winning and your TV numbers will be pretty darn good. Based upon the TV numbers that FSU used, SU is already better than many and that has been while we have been sucking.

 

[SURules]

Flagship snob.

He’s an homer. Nothing more. Look at the UNC TV numbers FSU used and then think about “dead weight”

 

[Don]

why would Florida state or any of these other schools be ready to pay potentially hundreds of millions of dollars to get out of the ACC to just eventually be in a 64 team league with 2- 32 reams divisions which would include many of the teams they are trying to get away from? and having them be so called partners in the league making the same amount of money?

 

[qdawgg]

The thing I don’t understand here is how any conference or affiliation after this signs a long term deal with FSU…they are not trustworthy contracts or otherwise…this is going to kill them

They may not be asked to a better conference for other reasons but this isn’t one of them. There’s been 10+ schools in the last how many years that have dropped their current conference to go to B10 or SEC. Neither of those conferences care if FSU is scummy if they bring value and they know once they’re in their conference they’ll never leave. That’s not a worry at all. If FSU joins the SEC, where are they going to go to for more money? B10 and SEC have been poaching teams for awhile now, FSU is just one more notch in the belt if they leave the conference.

 

[qdawgg]

Sounds like the NFL. We don't need another.

Do NFL players opt out of the playoffs? Do conference champions get left out of the NFL playoffs? Are playoff teams determined by some arbitrary set of rules that’s changes not only each year but week to week? Do NFL players switch teams every 1-3 years? Does the NFL enforce its rules against teams who cheat or break the rules?

CFB definitely doesn’t want to do anything to resemble the terrible, poorly run NFL.