Future Campus Framework Discussion

[reedny]

I agree with your premise that SU could spend big in the short term and ultimately have it matter little in the grander picture. I think the unfortunate reality for major P5 sports is that we'll see in the coming years a growing divide between the state schools and the private schools. It's evolving into an arms race that many of the private schools have little chance of competing in when you start talking about the consistent costs it takes to maintain competitive practice facilities, stadium, locker rooms, player lounges, academic staff, coaching staff, players dormitory, weight lifting facilities, training staff, training/rehab facilities etc. The revenue streams for the huge state vs. smaller private groups are just not the same. Especially when you start thinking about how invested governors, senators and the like are in their state's respective flagship athletic programs and how it is relayed into funding.

However, I do think SU needs to at least try. Maybe it helps, maybe it doesn't but by not trying you are more or less guaranteeing the worst case scenario. The school and community would suffer if the basketball and football programs became irrelevant. As is, we're probably 8-10 years behind where we should be in many of our facilities. The roof dilemma alone is going to stretch our pockets and that's not even to do anything fancy but just to stay within regulations. It's a tough call but I think the history of the respective programs at the very least deserves to go down fighting.

Agree with most of those points. Even though we're competing against (in some instances) unlimited state budgets, we still have to invest (re-invest) to keep our facilities as competitive as possible. Facilities are a building block of success. You have to woo recruits to win, and you need facilities to do that. We have, not a good, but a GREAT venue. But it's not going to produce if we don't update it from time to time. And after 35 years, the Dome needs a major investment ... that's why I called it "recapitalization".

So yes, the state schools will outspend us. But we still have to do our best to stay competitive in the ACC.

 

[SWC75]

OK folks - I'm going to the Albany road show on June 29 with JB and Wildhack. Can someone frame a question re the Dome renovation which may actually elicit info from the AD?

Who's going to pay for it?
What's it going to be like?
When will it be done?

We've got the "where"

 

[Townie72]

Agree with most of those points. Even though we're competing against (in some instances) unlimited state budgets, we still have to invest (re-invest) to keep our facilities as competitive as possible. Facilities are a building block of success. You have to woo recruits to win, and you need facilities to do that. We have, not a good, but a GREAT venue. But it's not going to produce if we don't update it from time to time. And after 35 years, the Dome needs a major investment ... that's why I called it "recapitalization".

So yes, the state schools will outspend us. But we still have to do our best to stay competitive in the ACC.

And the plan the University floated appeared to do what you say.

But the money they were looking for to fund this doesn't appear to be there.

This is now a question of what the school can afford.

 

[Townie72]

Who's going to pay for it?
What's it going to be like?
When will it be done?

We've got the "where"

That's the right order of questions.

How much money you have is the determining factor.

 

[reedny]

And the plan the University floated appeared to do what you say.

But the money they were looking for to fund this doesn't appear to be there.

This is now a question of what the school can afford.

You may have more information (about public funding streams) than I do. But from what I understand, it will be a major piece of the cost. I can't say any more than that. But I think the value is proven. And for those who would minimize the public contribution, I would suggest that they're being penny-wise and pound foolish. A big enough investment to upgrade the Dome from first round beyond [by edit] the NCAA regionals would significantly expand the economic impact. If that sounds too vague, consider that one of the biggest obstacles has been that the Syracuse community doesn't have enough hotel capacity for all the people that would come.

 

[Bayside44]

You may have more information (about public funding streams) than I do. But from what I understand, it will be a major piece of the cost. I can't say any more than that. But I think the value is proven. And for those who would minimize the public contribution, I would suggest that they're being penny-wise and pound foolish. A big enough investment to upgrade the Dome from first round to the NCAA regionals would significantly expand the economic impact. If that sounds too vague, consider that one of the biggest obstacles has been that the Syracuse community doesn't have enough hotel capacity for all the people that would come.

We've hosted a number of regionals...

 

[reedny]

We've hosted a number of regionals...

Yep, I corrected it, you must have beat my edit. I'm thinking beyond the first round/regional level. Some have talked about hosting a FF here ... the issue is hotel space (especially A level). I'd like to hear from others who can offer more information and insight (perhaps you can) as to how we're doing with hotel capacity. From what I've heard, it's a pretty big leap from the earlier rounds to the crowds at a FF level event.

 

[Bayside44]

Yep, I corrected it, you must have beat my edit. I'm thinking beyond the first round/regional level. Some have talked about hosting a FF here ... the issue is hotel space (especially A level). I'd like to hear from others who can offer more information and insight (perhaps you can) as to how we're doing with hotel capacity. From what I've heard, it's a pretty big leap from the earlier rounds to the crowds at a FF level event.

I think I heard an answer years ago. Basically a new stadium and a bigger airport and more rooms...Those games are going to massive stadiums now.

 

[reedny]

I think I heard an answer years ago. Basically a new stadium and a bigger airport and more rooms...Those games are going to massive stadiums now.

True. But I thought the whole idea of the hotel worked into the West side (overlooking On. valley) was to increase accommodations capacity and (with parallel investments in the City/surrounding area) bring us up to the level where we could host bigger events like a FF.

 

[Bayside44]

True. But I thought the whole idea of the hotel worked into the West side (overlooking On. valley) was to increase accommodations capacity and (with parallel investments in the City/surrounding area) bring us up to the level where we could host bigger events like a FF.

In the original plan going around a while ago if they got the whole deal capacity would've decreased a fair amount.

 

[reedny]

In the original plan going around a while ago if they got the whole deal capacity would've decreased a fair amount.

I think that was a (modest) reduction in seating capacity for FB. Capacity for BB, as I read the plans, was not to be reduced. And the idea of the hotel was for basketball to be able to provide better/more accessible hotel space for the press and all the glitterati that travel with the tournament.

 

[Bayside44]

I think that was a (modest) reduction in seating capacity for FB. Capacity for BB, as I read the plans, was not to be reduced. And the idea of the hotel was for basketball to be able to provide better/more accessible hotel space for the press and all the glitterati that travel with the tournament.

It was more than 5K...no matter this will be incremental now.

 

[Cheriehoop]

True. But I thought the whole idea of the hotel worked into the West side (overlooking On. valley) was to increase accommodations capacity and (with parallel investments in the City/surrounding area) bring us up to the level where we could host bigger events like a FF.

Beside hotel rooms another huge issue was the physical room and technology for press coverage inside the dome. They have so many rules and need much more room than the current dome could provide. Whether that issue would be addressed with a dome renovation ,I don't know. I heard SU may be shooting for the womens' NCAA final 4 so perhaps what's necessary to ever hold the men's finals may be out of reach.

 

[sufandu]

True. But I thought the whole idea of the hotel worked into the West side (overlooking On. valley) was to increase accommodations capacity and (with parallel investments in the City/surrounding area) bring us up to the level where we could host bigger events like a FF.

Hasn't that ship sailed? All of the FF's go to much bigger higher profile cities. I think hotel capacity may have been the sticking point in the past, but, now that they're all going to professional football stadiums in major cities, it would be hard to believe Syracuse would ever be seriously considered.

 

[UnknownOrange]

I would start by just trying to get confirmation that the new roof will be a fixed one.

If this is confirmed, is it planned to use ETFE to open p walls and/or the roof to the outside? I would be interested to see if John even knows what ETFE is. If so, that is a good sign.

He does.

 

[sutomcat]

He does.

That at least implies some of the rumored options that use ETFE are still being considered. I am a big proponent of that material. Using it has the potential to give the project a fantastic wow factor the SU sports programs could really use.

Thanks for confirming this.

 

[UnknownOrange]

That at least implies some of the rumored options that use ETFE are still being considered. I am a big proponent of that material. Using it has the potential to give the project a fantastic wow factor the SU sports programs could really use.

Thanks for confirming this.

I think if the question is asked you'll get a very 'coach-speak' answer. Maybe he's more candid on 1 on 1s

 

[jr4750]

I think if the question is asked you'll get a very 'coach-speak' answer. Maybe he's more candid on 1 on 1s

I asked him the question a few weeks ago and got nothing of substance. Perhaps I need to work on my negotiating tactics, but I agree, I doubt he will share too much.

 

[sutomcat]

Hasn't that ship sailed? All of the FF's go to much bigger higher profile cities. I think hotel capacity may have been the sticking point in the past, but, now that they're all going to professional football stadiums in major cities, it would be hard to believe Syracuse would ever be seriously considered.

A couple of things...

1) The NCAA is on record as strongly preferring to host its championship events on college campuses.
2) The NCAA tries to rotate its championship events to all areas of the country and the only possible facility that could be used to host a Final Four in the Northeast is the Carrier Dome.
3) The boom in hotel construction in CNY helps address the hotel issue. Still work to be done here but it is great to see the Hotel Syracuse back up and running and already announcing plans for a major expansion.
4) I don't think the idea to have a hotel next to the Dome is specifically tied to Syracuse someday hosting Final Fours. It think that would be more of a way to raise funds for the renovation. The hope is that a hotel chain would pay a substantial fee for the right to build next to the Dome.

I hope SU has been in contact with the NCAA to see what changes would be needed to get the Dome to a place where it could host a Final Four (and to confirm that would consider Syracuse). If the NCAA indicated they were forthcoming to it, that could be taken into account when getting funding for the project. I assume this has already happened. Would love to know what the NCAA said.

 

[OrangeMojo]

Guys - I love the optimism/enthusiasm - but the Final Four will not be held in Syracuse, NY - it's simply not going to happen.

 

[Newhouser]

A couple of things...

1) The NCAA is on record as strongly preferring to host its championship events on college campuses.
2) The NCAA tries to rotate its championship events to all areas of the country and the only possible facility that could be used to host a Final Four in the Northeast is the Carrier Dome.
3) The boom in hotel construction in CNY helps address the hotel issue. Still work to be done here but it is great to see the Hotel Syracuse back up and running and already announcing plans for a major expansion.
4) I don't think the idea to have a hotel next to the Dome is specifically tied to Syracuse someday hosting Final Fours. It think that would be more of a way to raise funds for the renovation. The hope is that a hotel chain would pay a substantial fee for the right to build next to the Dome.

I hope SU has been in contact with the NCAA to see what changes would be needed to get the Dome to a place where it could host a Final Four (and to confirm that would consider Syracuse). If the NCAA indicated they were forthcoming to it, that could be taken into account when getting funding for the project. I assume this has already happened. Would love to know what the NCAA said.

Quick google search leads me to think the hotel piece needs to be fleshed out. It seems the NCAA looks for full service rooms and from what I see the area is still lacking those numbers. A couple of hundred rooms that offer soup to nuts service still leaves the area well short. Not to mention the airport and its lack of capacity and the Dome - new or old version, seems to be too small for what the NCAA has been selecting. I get the NCAA saying they prefer on campus locations for championships, but their main preference is $ and for their one event that draws people I think they want much larger venues.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

A couple of things...

1) The NCAA is on record as strongly preferring to host its championship events on college campuses.
2) The NCAA tries to rotate its championship events to all areas of the country and the only possible facility that could be used to host a Final Four in the Northeast is the Carrier Dome.
3) The boom in hotel construction in CNY helps address the hotel issue. Still work to be done here but it is great to see the Hotel Syracuse back up and running and already announcing plans for a major expansion.
4) I don't think the idea to have a hotel next to the Dome is specifically tied to Syracuse someday hosting Final Fours. It think that would be more of a way to raise funds for the renovation. The hope is that a hotel chain would pay a substantial fee for the right to build next to the Dome.

I hope SU has been in contact with the NCAA to see what changes would be needed to get the Dome to a place where it could host a Final Four (and to confirm that would consider Syracuse). If the NCAA indicated they were forthcoming to it, that could be taken into account when getting funding for the project. I assume this has already happened. Would love to know what the NCAA said.

And yet the NCAA hasn't had a Final Four on campus since the 80's, and they've been exclusively in NFL Stadiums for the last 20 years and counting. No more basketball arenas.

You want a Final Four in Syracuse?
You need:

• A 65,000 seat stadium with plenty of media working rooms
• At least 10,000 hotel rooms within walking distance of the stadium
• A convention center large enough to hold the NABC Coaches Convention
• And pray that there isn't a foot of snow on the ground in April

FWIW: The NCAA doesn't consider the Dome to be an "NFL type stadium". They think of it as a very large arena (25,000+)

It's not happening.

 

[shandeezy7]

Yeah let's do away with the hosting the final 4 discussion. It was a pipe dream in the 90's and it's an impossibility now and in the future.

 

[MSOrange]

And yet the NCAA hasn't had a Final Four on campus since the 80's, and they've been exclusively in NFL Stadiums for the last 20 years and counting. No more basketball arenas.

You want a Final Four in Syracuse?
You need:

• A 65,000 seat stadium with plenty of media working rooms
• At least 10,000 hotel rooms within walking distance of the stadium
• A convention center large enough to hold the NABC Coaches Convention
• And pray that there isn't a foot of snow on the ground in April

FWIW: The NCAA doesn't consider the Dome to be an "NFL type stadium". They think of it as a very large arena (25,000+)

It's not happening.

I have to agree with this. I like to be positive but I just don't see a Final 4 as realistic.

 

[OttoMets]

Quick google search leads me to think the hotel piece needs to be fleshed out. It seems the NCAA looks for full service rooms and from what I see the area is still lacking those numbers. A couple of hundred rooms that offer soup to nuts service still leaves the area well short. Not to mention the airport and its lack of capacity and the Dome - new or old version, seems to be too small for what the NCAA has been selecting. I get the NCAA saying they prefer on campus locations for championships, but their main preference is $ and for their one event that draws people I think they want much larger venues.

I don't think the airport is a problem per se (though weather is taken into consideration; while the NCAA has used Detroit or Minneapolis, the possibility of a weekend's worth of flights wiped out due to mid-spring snow is on the minds of any event organizer). But the capacity's OK - the airport was built to handle way more traffic than the market currently wants, and airlines would just add a bunch of flights if there were some unusual demand for that kind of event.

But the hotel thing is and forever will be way short of what the NCAA requires. You mentioned it: full service. A few new Hampton Inns aren't going to bridge the gap.