Future Campus Framework Discussion

[OttoMets]

And yet the NCAA hasn't had a Final Four on campus since the 80's, and they've been exclusively in NFL Stadiums for the last 20 years and counting. No more basketball arenas.

You want a Final Four in Syracuse?
You need:

• A 65,000 seat stadium with plenty of media working rooms
• At least 10,000 hotel rooms within walking distance of the stadium
• A convention center large enough to hold the NABC Coaches Convention
• And pray that there isn't a foot of snow on the ground in April

FWIW: The NCAA doesn't consider the Dome to be an "NFL type stadium". They think of it as a very large arena (25,000+)

It's not happening.

Generally, yeah. But not so much walking distance (Houston).

The snow thing's underrated, all things being equal. Which is funny, because nearly every other time snow is brought up as a negative it's dramatically overrated. But it matters here. One in a thousand chance, maybe, but the NCAA would need some IOC-level arm-twisting to agree to site its marquee event someplace where it just might be played in front of 10,000 people because the region is snowed in.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Guys - I love the optimism/enthusiasm - but the Final Four will not be held in Syracuse, NY - it's simply not going to happen.

Stephanie, your term is up soon.

 

[sufandu]

A couple of things...

1) The NCAA is on record as strongly preferring to host its championship events on college campuses.
2) The NCAA tries to rotate its championship events to all areas of the country and the only possible facility that could be used to host a Final Four in the Northeast is the Carrier Dome.
3) The boom in hotel construction in CNY helps address the hotel issue. Still work to be done here but it is great to see the Hotel Syracuse back up and running and already announcing plans for a major expansion.
4) I don't think the idea to have a hotel next to the Dome is specifically tied to Syracuse someday hosting Final Fours. It think that would be more of a way to raise funds for the renovation. The hope is that a hotel chain would pay a substantial fee for the right to build next to the Dome.

I hope SU has been in contact with the NCAA to see what changes would be needed to get the Dome to a place where it could host a Final Four (and to confirm that would consider Syracuse). If the NCAA indicated they were forthcoming to it, that could be taken into account when getting funding for the project. I assume this has already happened. Would love to know what the NCAA said.

I didn't know that. How long ago did they say it, and when was the last time it happened for basketball? I think #2 would be our strongest argument.

 

[sufandu]

Generally, yeah. But not so much walking distance (Houston).

The snow thing's underrated, all things being equal. Which is funny, because nearly every other time snow is brought up as a negative it's dramatically overrated. But it matters here. One in a thousand chance, maybe, but the NCAA would need some IOC-level arm-twisting to agree to site its marquee event someplace where it just might be played in front of 10,000 people because the region is snowed in.

Is the snow thing that big of a deal. When was the last time Syracuse cancelled flights because of snow? Anytime I've heard of winter weather related cancellations, it's due to other cities having trouble.

 

[OttoMets]

Is the snow thing that big of a deal. When was the last time Syracuse cancelled flights because of snow? Anytime I've heard of winter weather related cancellations, it's due to other cities having trouble.

It makes it difficult to book big wintertime events, no doubt about it. Whether or not Syracuse's airport has problems, there are plenty of places where the chances of weather-related disruption is much closer to 0%, and it's a criterion for conventions and the like. There's a reason baseball's winter meetings, for instance, aren't held in Chicago anymore. From November to April, absent some very compelling reason (say, the Super Bowl being used as bait for Minneapolis or Detroit to build a new stadium), big events tend to avoid the Snow Belt.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

I didn't know that. How long ago did they say it, and when was the last time it happened for basketball? I think #2 would be our strongest argument.

The last time the FF was held on a college campus was 1985.

The last Soccer FF on campus was 1994.

The last LAX FF on campus was 2002.

The CWS has a permanent home in Omaha.

The CFB rotates through 6 bowls, none of which are located on a campus.

Clearly, the NCAA edict to hold events on campus only applies to the "kiddie" sports.

 

[upperdeck]

i dont know how of an issue it would really be. the vast majority of the people would be in town 2-3 days before it started. major snow events cause some disruption around town but mostly for people traveling in and for a final 4 how many would be driving 20-30 miles in? almost none since many of the tickets are not sold locally.

 

[reedny]

Hasn't that ship sailed? All of the FF's go to much bigger higher profile cities. I think hotel capacity may have been the sticking point in the past, but, now that they're all going to professional football stadiums in major cities, it would be hard to believe Syracuse would ever be seriously considered.

You may be right about the FF, ultimately, as (per OrangeExtreme's posts) it seems that the venues have recently been pro arenas. However, let's not create a false dilemma here. While the FF might be beyond the reach of what the Dome/Syracuse footprint could host even with an extensive rennovation, that doesn't mean that there aren't a bunch of other possibilities for larger-scale events there to preserve and expand the facilities' economic impact. The more high-profile events, the bigger the bang for the buck. It seems in this discussion, disappointingly, people are rushing to the conclusion that if it's not possible for the Dome to host a colossal FF event, then why bother with a costly renovation at all. That, IMO, would be a mistake.

 

[sufandu]

You may be right about the FF, ultimately, as (per OrangeExtreme's post) it seems that the venues have recently been pro arenas. However, let's not create a false dilemma here. While the FF might be beyond the reach of what the Dome/Syracuse footprint could host even with an extensive rennovation, that doesn't mean that there aren't a bunch of other possibilities for larger-scale events there to preserve and expand the facilities' economic impact. The more high-profile events, the bigger the bang for the buck. It seems in this discussion, disappointingly, people are rushing to the conclusion that if it's not possible for the Dome to host a colossal FF even, then why bother with a costly renovation at all. That, IMO, would be a mistake.

My comments were strictly about the FF. I don't know enough to know what other possibilities are out there for other events. The mega concerts of the '80's seem to be less common now, but I'm sure there are bunch of things I've never considered.

 

[OrangeMojo]

Stephanie, your term is up soon.

I'm sure the big $$ NCAA corporate sponsors would be very enthusiastic to reward their clients and VIPs with an early April trip to Syracuse,NY - no issue there.

 

[sutomcat]

And yet the NCAA hasn't had a Final Four on campus since the 80's, and they've been exclusively in NFL Stadiums for the last 20 years and counting. No more basketball arenas.

You want a Final Four in Syracuse?
You need:

• A 65,000 seat stadium with plenty of media working rooms
• At least 10,000 hotel rooms within walking distance of the stadium
• A convention center large enough to hold the NABC Coaches Convention
• And pray that there isn't a foot of snow on the ground in April

FWIW: The NCAA doesn't consider the Dome to be an "NFL type stadium". They think of it as a very large arena (25,000+)

It's not happening.

Not everyone agrees with you. Some value a venue on a campus, in the Northeast, with markedly better and more intimate (relative) seating than most of the monstrous arenas that are the usual hosts.

NCAA discusses Final Four move back to arenas

But I won't argue that landing a Final Four in Syracuse will be difficult. Money is the main overriding factor and probably always will be. But I refuse to give up, at least if the Dome is renovated in a significant way.

 

[Bayside44]

Not everyone agrees with you. Some value a venue on a campus, in the Northeast, with markedly better and more intimate (relative) seating than most of the monstrous arenas that are the usual hosts.

NCAA discusses Final Four move back to arenas

But I won't argue that landing a Final Four in Syracuse will be difficult. Money is the main overriding factor and probably always will be. But I refuse to give up, at least if the Dome is renovated in a significant way.

The article is almost 5 years old.

If the Dome actually put in seats to replace the benches it loses 8K in seats. And it has no real suites (bathrooms) and limited ones at that.

If the city got their stadium up a couple of years ago at least you'd have a plug and play facility before the hotel and airport and convention space thing.

I do think it's a shame that these events basically go to second tier towns that managed to get a domed stadium, or places like Dallas or Phoenix that require massive drive times.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Not everyone agrees with you. Some value a venue on a campus, in the Northeast, with markedly better and more intimate (relative) seating than most of the monstrous arenas that are the usual hosts.

NCAA discusses Final Four move back to arenas

But I won't argue that landing a Final Four in Syracuse will be difficult. Money is the main overriding factor and probably always will be. But I refuse to give up, at least if the Dome is renovated in a significant way.

You referenced an Andy Katz article from 2012.

Since then, the NCAA has already awarded Final Fours through 2022:

2018: San Antonio
2019: Minneapolis
2020: Atlanta
2021: Indianapolis
2022: New Orleans

Will our renovations be done by 2023?

Will SU even announce the plans by 2023?

 

[shandeezy7]

I'm the biggest city of Syracuse supporter out there, but the most important factor in SU never hosting a Final Four has more to do with the city itself than it does with the stadium, the weather, etc. The last time the Final Four was held in a city with a metro area a comparable size to Syracuse was in 1985 in Lexington - 32 YEARS AGO. The Final Four is a massive event held in large cities in very large arenas.

If the NCAA decides to move away from the huge pro football stadiums, then they will be going into cities like Boston, Philly, NYC, DC, etc. in the Northeast, not Syracuse. I'm a proponent of renovating the Dome, and could even get behind a brand new facility, but neither of those options should have anything to do with whether or not Syracuse will ever possibly host a Final Four. Short of the polar ice caps completely melting and flooding all major coastal cities, Syracuse will never be selected as a host.

 

[sutomcat]

You referenced an Andy Katz article from 2012.

Since then, the NCAA has already awarded Final Fours through 2022:

2018: San Antonio
2019: Minneapolis
2020: Atlanta
2021: Indianapolis
2022: New Orleans

Will our renovations be done by 2023?

Will SU even announce the plans by 2023?

LOL. I sure hope so. The roof will be so old by then that if it hasn't been replaced, it will probably be in tatters anyway.

The Alamodome drew 43K for the Final Four when they hosted in 2008. I think they plan to get it up to around 49K for next year. I agree there is no way they will bring the Final Four to an arena with a capacity of 19 or 20K. But I think it is possible they might find a way to live with 35 or 40K for Syracuse. If they were to lower the floor some, it would be possible to get more than 50K into the Dome for basketball, and the seats would be great compared to places like the Georgia Dome or the SuperDome. I have been to Final Fours in those places and the seats were awful.

Right now, I believe I read that there are only 8 sites that can hold a Final Four in the US. If Syracuse was somehow able to get in the club, they would be part of a pretty small rotation, and my guess is that they might get more looks that some of the other areas that are over represented compared to the Northeast.

 

[reedny]

I'm sure the big $$ NCAA corporate sponsors would be very enthusiastic to reward their clients and VIPs with an early April trip to Syracuse,NY - no issue there.

Quite a Debbie Downer. Have you considered that, with a proper renovation (more light, better seating, more entertainment options, a new roof, etc...), some of these Corporate VIP types might actually enjoy coming to the Dome?

Or are they so high and mighty that only the largest cities can accommodate their entertainment needs?

 

[shandeezy7]

Quite a Debbie Downer. Have you considered that, with a proper renovation (more light, better seating, more entertainment options, a new roof, etc...), some of these Corporate VIP types might actually enjoy coming to the Dome?

Or are they so high and mighty that only the largest cities can accommodate their entertainment needs?

Yes

 

[reedny]

Not everyone agrees with you. Some value a venue on a campus, in the Northeast, with markedly better and more intimate (relative) seating than most of the monstrous arenas that are the usual hosts.

NCAA discusses Final Four move back to arenas

But I won't argue that landing a Final Four in Syracuse will be difficult. Money is the main overriding factor and probably always will be. But I refuse to give up, at least if the Dome is renovated in a significant way.

And even if the FF is out of reach, that doesn't mean that a major renovation that brings the facility into the 21st century isn't a good plan. It would revive and expand its economic impact by allowing it to host other large-scale events that might not require a major city's amenities and accommodations. I mean, until recently, the ACC tournament was held in Greensborough.

 

[reedny]

Yes

I'm guessing you're not a fan of returning the ACC tournament to Greensborough then?

 

[shandeezy7]

I'm guessing you're not a fan of returning the ACC tournament to Greensborough then?

If Greensboro ever hosts a Final Four, then I will retract my statement about Syracuse never ever hosting one!

 

[longtimefan]

The last time the FF was held on a college campus was 1985.

The last Soccer FF on campus was 1994.

The last LAX FF on campus was 2002.

The CWS has a permanent home in Omaha.

The CFB rotates through 6 bowls, none of which are located on a campus.

Clearly, the NCAA edict to hold events on campus only applies to the "kiddie" sports.

You overlooked hockey. The Frozen Four has not been on campus since ???

 

[OrangeXtreme]

You overlooked hockey. The Frozen Four has not been on campus since ???

1983

 

[longtimefan]

1983

syracusefan--what a place!! Ask and you shall receive!

 

[AZOrange]

I think I heard an answer years ago. Basically a new stadium and a bigger airport and more rooms...Those games are going to massive stadiums now.

Yes. The idea that Syracuse could host a final four in the future is over. That's not the way the NCAA rolls anymore

 

[AZOrange]

The last time the FF was held on a college campus was 1985.

The last Soccer FF on campus was 1994.

The last LAX FF on campus was 2002.

The CWS has a permanent home in Omaha.

The CFB rotates through 6 bowls, none of which are located on a campus.

Clearly, the NCAA edict to hold events on campus only applies to the "kiddie" sports.

(Mic drop)