Future Campus Framework Discussion

[xc84]

You mean like Solyndra (or however you spell it) ?

And when they give credits they expect some tax revenue back like enticing a company to relocate to or stay in NY State?

SU gives plenty back. Imagine Syracuse without it.

 

[Cheriehoop]

I was explaining what Texan Mark was talking about and not suggesting it was a viable approach for SU.

That SU got NY State dollars for the Dome is amazing but reflective of the way in which tax dollars are distributed in the State. That a State should take tax dollars and give it to a private school to build a facility that the school would then own is mind-boggling.

Of course all the SU fans on here think it's a great idea.

If you are talking about fiscal responsibility, NYS has made an extremely lucrative and sound investment with SU's multi use dome and collected hundreds of millions more from the sales tax from yearly concessions, ticket sales, NCAA hosting events, outside concerts etc. The state isn't responsible for the maintenance, administrative costs like they are for NYS public universities either. I wish I could get the return on investment that NYS has garnered for their relatively small contribution to the dome over the past 36 years.

 

[Townie72]

If you are talking about fiscal responsibility, NYS has made an extremely lucrative and sound investment with SU's multi use dome and collected hundreds of millions more from the sales tax from yearly concessions, ticket sales, NCAA hosting events, outside concerts etc. The state isn't responsible for the maintenance, administrative costs like they are for NYS public universities either. I wish I could get the return on investment that NYS has garnered for their relatively small contribution to the dome over the past 36 years.

My recollection is that only the outside events revenue is taxable.

Can you support your claims of tax revenue NYS received? You may be right, but I don't think so.

 

[PhatOrange]

Here's a good way for the Athletic dept to make a little cash.

Dead & Company concerts netted $700K in profit for CU Athletics

Dead & Company concerts netted $700K in profit for CU Athletics

 

[Townie72]

SU gives plenty back. Imagine Syracuse without it.

I agree 100%

But giving a private university money to build a stadium seems beyond the pale.

I just read some of the stuff from The NY Times from the 1984 battle over Syracuse trying to tax Dome revenue. SU contended that 90% of usage had "educational purposes" and that high operating costs meant there was no profit and therefor no taxes due.

 

[xc84]

I agree 100%

But giving a private university money to build a stadium seems beyond the pale.

I just read some of the stuff from The NY Times from the 1984 battle over Syracuse trying to tax Dome revenue. SU contended that 90% of usage had "educational purposes" and that high operating costs meant there was no profit and therefor no taxes due.

I recall the arguments and I believe things like concerts are taxed now.

For me, the dome is the most significant structure built in Syracuse in my lifetime. It has brought in much needed revenue and related taxes to the area (spectators spend money locally). If I think of state money being wasted, this is not even close to being on my list.

 

[TexanMark]

I was explaining what Texan Mark was talking about and not suggesting it was a viable approach for SU.

That SU got NY State dollars for the Dome is amazing but reflective of the way in which tax dollars are distributed in the State. That a State should take tax dollars and give it to a private school to build a facility that the school would then own is mind-boggling.

Of course all the SU fans on here think it's a great idea.

Yeah my comment was TIC...but a peer school like TCU is flush with deep pockets willing to throw money at sports.

 

[Townie72]

Yeah my comment was TIC...but a peer school like TCU is flush with deep pockets willing to throw money at sports.

Mark, as I am sure you know, there are two huge differences between TCU and SU.

The first is that there has been a lot of money made by Texans. There aren't thousands of multi-millionaires, but there are a bunch of them. And they are incredibly tied to their Alma Mater whether that be TCU, A&M or whatever.

The second Texans are sports crazy, especially for football.

The SU alumni base --- by and large --- doesn't give a damn about sports. When I went there half the student body didn't care at all.

The locals, who are the majority of SU boosters, don't have any money. Appalachia has extended its borders northward to absorb once-prosperous CNY.

 

[retro44]

If you are talking about fiscal responsibility, NYS has made an extremely lucrative and sound investment with SU's multi use dome and collected hundreds of millions more from the sales tax from yearly concessions, ticket sales, NCAA hosting events, outside concerts etc. The state isn't responsible for the maintenance, administrative costs like they are for NYS public universities either. I wish I could get the return on investment that NYS has garnered for their relatively small contribution to the dome over the past 36 years.

I don't remember paying a sales tax on food bought at the stadium...As for the cafeterias on campus I never paid attention to that either when working up there also.

My kids high school keeps all the proceeds from their sales at games...Do they charge a sales tax on individual ticket sales or does ticketmaster pays a business tax as I know my seasons has no sales tax listed.

 

[Cheriehoop]

My recollection is that only the outside events revenue is taxable.

Can you support your claims of tax revenue NYS received? You may be right, but I don't think so.

I figured this would apply. It's from the tax.ny.gov website ST-8 bulletin.

Taxable admission charges
Examples of taxable admission charges include, but are not limited to, admission charges to:

• professional or college sporting events, including:
  • football, baseball, basketball, or hockey games;
  • golf tournaments;
  • tennis matches;
  • stock car races;
  • track and field events; and
  • swimming or skating competitions;
• amusement parks (however, see Amusement Parks - Admission, Ride, and Other Charges (TB-ST-30), and TSB-M-03(5)S, Charges for Admission to a Place of Amusement and for the Use of Amusement Rides);
• fairgrounds or exhibition halls;
• beaches;
• carnivals and rodeos;
• variety shows;
• museums, zoos, and aquariums;
• play centers for children;
• trade shows open to the public, such as auto, boat, or animal shows;
• closed circuit television broadcasts of any sporting event originating outside of New York State shown at a theater or other establishment in New York;
• haunted houses; and
• adult entertainment establishments.

From NYS pub 843:
Example: A private New York college that is an exempt organization charges patrons for admission to a football game. Proceeds from the admission charges benefit the college athletic department. The admission charges are subject to tax because they do not exclusively benefit an elementary or secondary school.

I did see on SU's Carrier dome concession info regarding non profit organization run concession stands this statement below:
Fundraising Opportunities


Earn money for your non-profit 501(c) (3) organization by working at the Carrier Dome with the Syracuse Orange!

Compensation: Earn 13.5% – 15.5% of your stands concession sales (less taxes and discrepancies).

This sounds like sales taxes are collected in the sales revenue and deducted from the concession stand sales.


It's interesting that I can't find many specific references to colleges in the NYS sales tax code or for stadium concessions though.

 

[sutomcat]

Cheriehoop is correct; sales tax is charged on all ticket sales, concessions, parking, merchandising, etc. in the Dome. That, along with all the taxes paid by patrons using hotel rooms, local restaurants, etc. generates enormous revenue for the state that would not exist if the Carrier Dome did not exist.

As far as property taxes, the last I knew, the Dome, as well as all property owned by SU, is exempt. The city of Syracuse and SU however negotiated a deal where the city gets a substantial payment each year in return for the city not pursuing claims it is non tax exempt.

The Carrier Dome will be exempted from property taxes...

The dome was a great investment for the state. Besides providing millions of dollars in sales tax revenue to the state, that investment has a lasting major impact on the economy of CNY, gave thousands of NYS kids a big time facility in play in (football, basketball, track and field, field hockey, soccer, marching band, etc). It also gave upstate NY residents a chance to see big time concerts that would not easily be able to see otherwise, as well as give access to other unique non-SU athletic events for CNY residents (like NCAA events in lacrosse and basketball, NFL exhibition games, boxing matches, monster trucks, etc.).

NYS rarely makes good decisions spending money. This was one of the rare good decisions. And when they invest again in a renovation of the Dome, it will be another great investment.

 

[Cheriehoop]

SU had paid $2.5 million to the city for a 5 year agreement for traffic control coverage which they increased to $7 million this year for the new 5 year agreement.
SU Pays: $2.5 million deal with city sets precedent for other nonprofits

Syracuse University agrees to pay $7M to city to offset use of services

The $15 million provided in 1979 or so from the state for the Carrier Dome is dwarfed by the revenue SU provides every year to government coffers. Remember all the permits for the IPF everyone was discussing and complaining about delaying construction, well those permits = additional revenue $ to the city too.

 

[Townie72]

Without seeing the books, I'd be reluctant to agree things are anywhere near as some think.

But let's not rewrite history here.

That $15.2 M was straight up Pork Barrel spending. It was a trade-off to get the support of Upstate pols for Downstate spending on other Pork Barrel projects. This was reported in the Press at the time.

The expansion / improvement of the Dome doesn't increase capacity and the tax revenue associated with capacity. Sounds suspiciously like more spending to achieve the same --- or nearly the same --- revenue.

But to the extent that this expansion/improvement rests on getting a lot of tax dollars, count me as being skeptical. The "optics" of this are not good. Except to SU fans.

 

[Cheriehoop]

Without seeing the books, I'd be reluctant to agree things are anywhere near as some think.

But let's not rewrite history here.

That $15.2 M was straight up Pork Barrel spending. It was a trade-off to get the support of Upstate pols for Downstate spending on other Pork Barrel projects. This was reported in the Press at the time.

The expansion / improvement of the Dome doesn't increase capacity and the tax revenue associated with capacity. Sounds suspiciously like more spending to achieve the same --- or nearly the same --- revenue.

But to the extent that this expansion/improvement rests on getting a lot of tax dollars, count me as being skeptical. The "optics" of this are not good. Except to SU fans.

That $15 million, a paltry amount looking back, was an economic long term investment for the Syracuse area which the State knew would pay off much more in the long run for both them and the Upstate area, not just the University. It's your prerogative to choose to think others are all lying but facts are facts. Even those dome employees paid by SU, pay income tax, sales tax, purchase homes and pay property taxes. The dome,a usable year round facility, has produced jobs and been only a boon to the community.

No one is rewriting history, there is 36 almost 37 years of reality and revenue history too. No improvements, upgrading , no dome future just eliminate the decades of revenue associated with it also - who is going to make up the loss? Hope you are raising your hand high.

 

[longtimefan]

You mean like Solyndra (or however you spell it) ?

And when they give credits they expect some tax revenue back like enticing a company to relocate to or stay in NY State?

"Solyndra" has become quite the whipping boy. It failed. But many other similar enterprises have received government money and are doing very well indeed. The proof being that the cost of solar has come down dramatically in the past decade. It is now competitive with fossil fuels in many areas of the country, and will become even less expensive than oil, if not gas, in the near future if current trends hold.

 

[Townie72]

"Solyndra" has become quite the whipping boy. It failed. But many other similar enterprises have received government money and are doing very well indeed. The proof being that the cost of solar has come down dramatically in the past decade. It is now competitive with fossil fuels in many areas of the country, and will become even less expensive than oil, if not gas, in the near future if current trends hold.

The direct connection between tax dollars given and falling costs has not been demonstrated by anyone. Falling costs have much more to do with manufacturing and technology improvements made by companies without tax dollars and improving economies of scale.

That might work on someone who does not have a background in engineering and manufacturing.

 

[longtimefan]

The direct connection between tax dollars given and falling costs has not been demonstrated by anyone. Falling costs have much more to do with manufacturing and technology improvements made by companies without tax dollars and improving economies of scale.

That might work on someone who does not have a background in engineering and manufacturing.

And yet, federal seed money has made the difference in R and D in industries from soup to nuts.

My point is that "Solyndra" has become a boogeyman term for political reasons.

 

[Townie72]

And yet, federal seed money has made the difference in R and D in industries from soup to nuts.

My point is that "Solyndra" has become a boogeyman term for political reasons.

You are right on the second point, but there's not a lot of proof on the first one, especially not in the energy field.

Name one IT technology that was based on govt seed money.

Most benefits from govt spending come from military or space programs including ARPANET.

 

[chop block]

You are right on the second point, but there's not a lot of proof on the first one, especially not in the energy field.

Name one IT technology that was based on govt seed money.

Most benefits from govt spending come from military or space programs including ARPANET.

Google

 

[Townie72]

Google

The government gave somebody money so they could develop a search engine?

 

[Townie72]

Google

I checked it out. They got a research grant not "seed money" to build anything.

I worked for Xerox for 30 years. We developed just about everything you see today (mice, icon interface, page description languages and so on) all the core technologies came from private industry or military or space programs.

 

[retro44]

I checked it out. They got a research grant not "seed money" to build anything.

I worked for Xerox for 30 years. We developed just about everything you see today (mice, icon interface, page description languages and so on) all the core technologies came from private industry or military or space programs.

Mice? Might as well throw away my fossil as " fake news"

 

[longtimefan]

You are right on the second point, but there's not a lot of proof on the first one, especially not in the energy field.

Name one IT technology that was based on govt seed money.

Most benefits from govt spending come from military or space programs including ARPANET.

Pharma and other related health-related.

 

[Townie72]

Pharma and other related health-related.

Seed money?

 

[Townie72]

Mice? Might as well throw away my fossil as " fake news"

Mice ... as in the thing you move around to position your cursor.