Future Campus Framework Presentation...

[Cusefan0307]

Love the University Plans. It's a good move.

As far as M street goes, I realize it's a little outdated, but please please please stay away from the cookie cutter, corporate franchising model everyone else follows, and please don't change Faegan's from it's current setup.

 

[OttoMets]

You can make it less dumpy and have cheap eats.

Meh, maybe, but not likely. The Marshall Street side of the Hill is some of the most expensive real estate in the county (SU paid $1.4 million an acre for a lot in the neighborhood last year - that's extraordinarily high for this region); that's going to be reflected in the rent. This is why we've got Chipotle and Starbucks and a bank on that block. Some landlords will eat that potential profit and operate their own businesses or even cut a break to local store owners (as the Dellas family has done), but we're certain to see more chains as the area is redeveloped.

The plan that JR saw represents a real (positive) change from the status quo on campus. Building, oddly enough, on Cantor's work, he wants to move the center of activity north - housing at Skytop is viewed as unattractive and the opportunity exists to draw students by offering school-owned residential options on the north and west peripheries of campus (which, again, would create synergy between SU and downtown). Like all previous plans, however, it's unlikely that many aspects of the plan would be implemented (we're still waiting on that sweet Bird addition and the absurd parking garage under Walnut Park detailed in the 2003 plan). Among other things, I don't see Waverly being closed as a public through-street (though it'll probably get a complete-street reconstruction in 2017).

The Dome renovation is probably going forward, though, and everyone on here is going to like it. Don't worry - Kent's not going to alienate Fine Messers or the other handful of people who want to tailgate. Far from it - I expect enhancements to the experience.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I'm so sick of that look. Box store/chain. Everywhere in CO looks like those Rochester pics and it's already old. So tired of Syracuse doing everything other cities have done 10 years ago and they're not even that cool or comfortable. I love the term you used "antiseptic-ness". Syracuse is a very unique city, be progressive not 10 yrs behind. Like every restaurant/bar they put in Destiny. Those are not only old in every other city, they're lame and not money makers anyways.

Destiny blows. There's nothing unique about it. None of that money gets re-invested in Syracuse.

 

[OttoMets]

City Planning board, Building Department, Zoning etc. They can pass ordinances to force things like brick facades and better signage. that's all they need to do. can still have cheap eats and non- chains but you turn it into 13th Street in Boulder or the main drag in Ann Arbor - East Liberty Street?

i'd go two story buildings with eats and shopping underneath. apartments on top. - or some rooftop bars, that'd be cool.

The city is exploring form-based zoning in its ongoing zoning rewrite.

The cynic in me fears they'll screw it up.

If good zoning regulations are passed, though, it'll make economic sense for some private Hill landlords to make aesthetic and functional improvements to their properties. Hope it doesn't get too Disney up there.

 

[jr4750]

Meh, maybe, but not likely. The Marshall Street side of the Hill is some of the most expensive real estate in the county (SU paid $1.4 million an acre for a lot in the neighborhood last year - that's extraordinarily high for this region); that's going to be reflected in the rent. This is why we've got Chipotle and Starbucks and a bank on that block. Some landlords will eat that potential profit and operate their own businesses or even cut a break to local store owners (as the Dellas family has done), but we're certain to see more chains as the area is redeveloped.

The plan that JR saw represents a real (positive) change from the status quo on campus. Building, oddly enough, on Cantor's work, he wants to move the center of activity north - housing at Skytop is viewed as unattractive and the opportunity exists to draw students by offering school-owned residential options on the north and west peripheries of campus (which, again, would create synergy between SU and downtown). Like all previous plans, however, it's unlikely that many aspects of the plan would be implemented (we're still waiting on that sweet Bird addition and the absurd parking garage under Walnut Park detailed in the 2003 plan). Among other things, I don't see Waverly being closed as a public through-street (though it'll probably get a complete-street reconstruction in 2017).

The Dome renovation is probably going forward, though, and everyone on here is going to like it. Don't worry - Kent's not going to alienate Fine Messers or the other handful of people who want to tailgate. Far from it - I expect enhancements to the experience.

Spot on Otto, the only thing I will add is that the architecture dean seemed quite sure that the three pathways through campus, one being Waverly would be created. The other university place, where Schein sits, would become pavers and have all buildings (Bird, Schein) creep closer to the "street," thus making the feel more pedestrian. He actually said that would be one of the first moves, as it was a relatively cheap 7-8 million development. Thats a huge change, and one that physically changes campus. We spent a lot of time talking about how weird it is, that the buildings on university face the hall of languages, while the buildings inside the quad on both sides, face north. Weird in many ways. Creates problems for where the "entry to the university," should be.

 

[OttoMets]

Dumpy works for me just fine, I would tear everything down there. Not sure who went to Maryland a few years ago but they had an off campus development that was mixed use. Nice retail on the bottom and apartments up top. It's was very nicely done and fit the landscape.

Interesting to cite Maryland - they've actually struggled for years at working with College Park to create a healthy college-town environment.

It's very difficult to create the right kind of neighborhood from a blank canvas. Marshall Street could use some improvements (more residential options and a more diverse group of property owners could go a long way), but SU's pretty fortunate to have the neighborhood it does.

 

[Millhouse]

what exactly is the issue w Marshall Street? I see something unique, very college-y and diverse as heck.

The antiseptic-ness of that Rochester picture smells like when Harvard gentrified and became "like any other square".

Again, bigger issues to the transformation of the campus but i always enjoyed the gritty nature of M Street

i agree that it's a little too uniform. but i think it's better than m street. i think they can make it a little more varied

 

[AZOrange]

I've been trying to come up with an analogy for an answer that was more than the word dumpy. You nailed it with the midway comparison.

lol thanks! I want a damn $25 turkey leg!!

M street could be really nice if they put some time/thought into it

 

[jr4750]

Interesting to cite Maryland - they've actually struggled for years at working with College Park to create a healthy college-town environment.

It's very difficult to create the right kind of neighborhood from a blank canvas. Marshall Street could use some improvements (more residential options and a more diverse group of property owners could go a long way), but SU's pretty fortunate to have the neighborhood it does.

Agree on Maryland. Seems to have a definite division between campus and their marshall street. Development along route 1 is coming along though, but it is certainly not as "accessible," as Marshall street is to their students. Route 1 is a huge street, much less pedestrian friendly than Waverly.

 

[OttoMets]

Spot on Otto, the only thing I will add is that the architecture dean seemed quite sure that the three pathways through campus, one being Waverly would be created. The other university place, where Schein sits, would become pavers and have all buildings (Bird, Schein) creep closer to the "street," thus making the feel more pedestrian. He actually said that would be one of the first moves, as it was a relatively cheap 7-8 million development. Thats a huge change, and one that physically changes campus. We spent a lot of time talking about how weird it is, that the buildings on university face the hall of languages, while the buildings inside the quad on both sides, face north. Weird in many ways. Creates problems for where the "entry to the university," should be.

Yes, the existence of Schine loading docks on Waverly (and unsightly back sides to Bird and Newhouse II) has been a sore point with neighbors for decades. SU has been unsympathetic; I know Mike gets it, and it's good to see the chancellor does, too.

Maybe they know something I don't know (get real, OttoMets - they know lots of things you don't know!), but the medical institutions would lose their minds if Waverly were closed to vehicular traffic. Depending on success of negotiations on UNSAAC money for the early-'90s closures of College/University/University, I imagine the city would resist this, too. My understanding is that Waverly will get the 400-800 University Avenue treatment in a reconstruction - two vehicle lanes, a parking lane, a cycle track, and a lot of trees (since it's an ugly wasteland right now). And hopefully much wider sidewalks, because they did a lousy job with that on University, as anyone who walks past the Sheraton can attest.

 

[AZOrange]

Yes, the existence of Schine loading docks on Waverly (and unsightly back sides to Bird and Newhouse II) has been a sore point with neighbors for decades. SU has been unsympathetic; I know Mike gets it, and it's good to see the chancellor does, too. Maybe they know something I don't know (get real, OttoMets - they know lots of things you don't know!), but the medical institutions would lose their minds if Waverly were closed to vehicular traffic. Depending on success of negotiations on UNSAAC money for the early-'90s closures of College/University/University, I imagine the city would resist this, too. My understanding is that Waverly will get the 400-800 University Avenue treatment in a reconstruction - two vehicle lanes, a parking lane, a cycle track, and a lot of trees (since it's an ugly wasteland right now). And hopefully much wider sidewalks, because they did a lousy job with that on University, as anyone who walks past the Sheraton can attest.

Your posts are incredibly insightful on here and much appreciated. One thing I've always thought about Marshall Street is that the layout is terrible and would actually be better as a square...maybe with game day activities in the middle. More of an open air concept.

 

[TheCusian]

eminent Domain is going to get the landlords to sell or how does everyone propose the university from dropping the hammer on M Street?

I don't know what this has to do with what I wrote?

 

[TexanMark]

I think it will be pneumatic tubes.

Hoverboards...

 

[AAM62]

I think people should probably wait and see the final plans before rolling out their Jump to Conclusions mats.

You must be new to this board

 

[OttoMets]

Your posts are incredibly insightful on here and much appreciated. One thing I've always thought about Marshall Street is that the layout is terrible and would actually be better as a square...maybe with game day activities in the middle. More of an open air concept.

Thanks, AZ. I'm not sure the diagonal parking was a great choice for Marshall (though it did improve what existed in the mid-'90s - anyone here remember that mess?). The linear set-up and tight quarters make exploring the block difficult and a little unpleasant; the dead space on the south side of the block don't help things.

To your point, maybe closing the block to through traffic on game days would make things easier - more space to move, sidewalk drinking and merchandise sales, etc.

 

[TheCusian]

Meh, maybe, but not likely. The Marshall Street side of the Hill is some of the most expensive real estate in the county (SU paid $1.4 million an acre for a lot in the neighborhood last year - that's extraordinarily high for this region); that's going to be reflected in the rent. This is why we've got Chipotle and Starbucks and a bank on that block. Some landlords will eat that potential profit and operate their own businesses or even cut a break to local store owners (as the Dellas family has done), but we're certain to see more chains as the area is redeveloped. The plan that JR saw represents a real (positive) change from the status quo on campus. Building, oddly enough, on Cantor's work, he wants to move the center of activity north - housing at Skytop is viewed as unattractive and the opportunity exists to draw students by offering school-owned residential options on the north and west peripheries of campus (which, again, would create synergy between SU and downtown). Like all previous plans, however, it's unlikely that many aspects of the plan would be implemented (we're still waiting on that sweet Bird addition and the absurd parking garage under Walnut Park detailed in the 2003 plan). Among other things, I don't see Waverly being closed as a public through-street (though it'll probably get a complete-street reconstruction in 2017). The Dome renovation is probably going forward, though, and everyone on here is going to like it. Don't worry - Kent's not going to alienate Fine Messers or the other handful of people who want to tailgate. Far from it - I expect enhancements to the experience.

Right. Chains typically feature decent upgrades in appearance and inexpensive food that students like?

I'd prefer small and unique over chains - but it's been a dump for a long time. Not a lots changed since I was a student. Tenets come and go but the appearance only degrades.

I don't know the answer, but I like it that Kent has his eyes set on fixing it somehow.

 

[AZOrange]

Thanks, AZ. I'm not sure the diagonal parking was a great choice for Marshall (though it did improve what existed in the mid-'90s - anyone here remember that mess?). The linear set-up and tight quarters make exploring the block difficult and a little unpleasant; the dead space on the south side of the block don't help things. To your point, maybe closing the block to through traffic on game days would make things easier - more space to move, sidewalk drinking and merchandise sales, etc.

ok I'm going off memory which is a little bit fuzzy so forgive me if I misspeak. I do remember the terrible parking btw. Anyhoo, what if the just scraped the stores on m street altogether and created a square where they stood. I know there's a one way street going down the hill that'd be rerouted but it was terrible anyway. Then closer to the hill you have terrible parking areas that could be more a part of the commercial experience.

 

[orange79]

Those pictures are exactly the type of look we should shoot for.

Especially the fans in the seats

 

[AZOrange]

Right. Chains typically feature decent upgrades in appearance and inexpensive food that students like? I'd prefer small and unique over chains - but it's been a dump for a long time. Not a lots changed since I was a student. Tenets come and go but the appearance only degrades. I don't know the answer, but I like it that Kent has his eyes set on fixing it somehow.

IIRC armory did pretty well with non chains. Perhaps some of those proprietor/concepts could be brought to M-Square (trademarked)

 

[TexanMark]

Syracuse has the Armory area, which draws people to that area. But the Marshall area could use a facelift and some better shopping, restaurants and bars. That's why I question turning the Sheraton into dorms down the road. It's the only place in that area with any class.

Crap...I thought the Fine Lot was pretty damn classy.

 

[shandeezy7]

ok I'm going off memory which is a little bit fuzzy so forgive me if I misspeak. I do remember the terrible parking btw. Anyhoo, what if the just scraped the stores on m street altogether and created a square where they stood. I know there's a one way street going down the hill that'd be rerouted but it was terrible anyway. Then closer to the hill you have terrible parking areas that could be more a part of the commercial experience.

The problem with closing off that street is that there is that big parking garage there that empties right onto that street. Plus the planned new building going up in the place of Varsity, Dunkin Donuts, Faegan's etc. is pretty dependent on having that street there, I'm sure.

 

[OttoMets]

Right. Chains typically feature decent upgrades in appearance and inexpensive food that students like?

I'd prefer small and unique over chains - but it's been a dump for a long time. Not a lots changed since I was a student. Tenets come and go but the appearance only degrades.

I don't know the answer, but I like it that Kent has his eyes set on fixing it somehow.

Ah, maybe we're speaking past each other, but I never think of chains and "cheap eats" as synonymous (Varsity-type places tend to be my go-to for that kind of thing).

There seems to be no incentive for property owners to invest - you're right that the appearance has gotten worse, from Dave Jacobs' derelict old second story house facade above his storefront to the garish colors on what used to be Cosmo's.

It's an interesting block. It'd be cool if I could bring out-of-town friends there with promises that "the food is excellent." The market isn't driving that sort of an improvement; I don't know exactly what would, but every time I've lived in a neighborhood that has undergone redevelopment, the retail choices have gotten more bland. (I realize I'm not making any point here, just musing.)

 

[OttoMets]

ok I'm going off memory which is a little bit fuzzy so forgive me if I misspeak. I do remember the terrible parking btw. Anyhoo, what if the just scraped the stores on m street altogether and created a square where they stood. I know there's a one way street going down the hill that'd be rerouted but it was terrible anyway. Then closer to the hill you have terrible parking areas that could be more a part of the commercial experience.

Gotcha. With all the different property owners on that block, it'd be very difficult. The lack of open gathering space in close proximity to commercial spaces is a real problem, though - not sure how that can get solved.

 

[OburgOrange]

Right. Chains typically feature decent upgrades in appearance and inexpensive food that students like?

I'd prefer small and unique over chains - but it's been a dump for a long time. Not a lots changed since I was a student. Tenets come and go but the appearance only degrades.

I don't know the answer, but I like it that Kent has his eyes set on fixing it somehow.

But, but, but...What about Shirtworld?

 

[Toga]

You can make it less dumpy and have cheap eats.

See Franklin Street - Chapel Hill.