Give me a 4 year Scoop over a 1 year MCW or Ennis

[NateW]

It drives me crazy when people belittle Scoop.

He had his faults but the only perfect player that ever walked through that door was Carmelo. The guy LOVED being an Orangemen and anyone who doesn't appreciate the evolution of him as a player and person doesn't get what college basketball SHOULD be all about. He'll always be one of my all-time favorites and if you didn't think he was a good player I seriously question your knowledge of basketball. Like, as in, my girlfriend knows more than you. Wish Jimmy could give a "Not Ten" speech about Scoop to our fan base.

Oh, and the OP is spot on. Spot on.

 

[ROCuse]

Scoop bashers swallowed there tongues when Scoop single handedly brought us back in the pitt game at the Pete after going down like what... 18-0?

That's an interesting slant on that game.

 

[OttoMets]

It drives me crazy when people belittle Scoop.

He had his faults but the only perfect player that ever walked through that door was Carmelo. The guy LOVED being an Orangemen and anyone who doesn't appreciate the evolution of him as a player and person doesn't get what college basketball SHOULD be all about. He'll always be one of my all-time favorites and if you didn't think he was a good player I seriously question your knowledge of basketball. Like, as in, my girlfriend knows more than you. Wish Jimmy could give a "Not Ten" speech about Scoop to our fan base.

Oh, and the OP is spot on. Spot on.

True. And Scoop was one of the five best point guards of the Boeheim era (a better collegian than either guy who succeeded him). Terrific player whose career a minority of people seem to have missed.

 

[Trueblue25]

That's an interesting slant on that game.

Just remember him being the one to jump start our offense, he didn't have a spectacular game and we lost...but he helped save us from embarrassment at the Pete.

 

[OrangePA]

flynn was short. he wasn't going to get taller at SU. guy is the poster child for getting paid while you're healthy

How many years did Jonny play at SU?

 

[sufandu]

The only people who bashed Scoop's game didn't know anything about basketball.

And while it's difficult to compare a forward to a guard, I think a better case could be made for Scoop as the superior player to C.J.

The people completely bashing Scoop are just as off as the people speaking as if he were the second coming of the Pearl. He was a good college player that had very questionable shot selection. He was a strong contributor in his last two years (both years where we had more balance), but he was never the best player on the team in any season and was never saddled with the pressure of being the number one option like CJ was this year.

 

[OttoMets]

The people completely bashing Scoop are just as off as the people speaking as if he were the second coming of the Pearl. He was a good college player that had very questionable shot selection. He was a strong contributor in his last two years (both years where we had more balance), but he was never the best player on the team in any season and was never saddled with the pressure of being the number one option like CJ was this year.

Unfortunately, there was one year when Scoop was the de facto number one option (2011). Wasn't his strongest. But he still put up offensive numbers that make some of us envious. Good college player, no doubt. Very good Syracuse point guard.

 

[sufandu]

True. And Scoop was one of the five best point guards of the Boeheim era (a better collegian than either guy who succeeded him). Terrific player whose career a minority of people seem to have missed.

Pearl, Sherman Douglas, Adrian Autry, Jason Hart, Gerry McNamara (should have been a 2 but was forced to play point), Jonny Flynn, MCW. So you're putting him in front of 3 guys on that list?

 

[sufandu]

Unfortunately, there was one year when Scoop was the de facto number one option (2011). Wasn't his strongest. But he still put up offensive numbers that make some of us envious. Good college player, no doubt. Very good Syracuse point guard.

No he wasn't. Both Rick Jackson and Kris Joseph scored more than him. You're number 1 option isn't the team's third leading scorer while averaging less than 6 assists per game. I'll give you that he took a lot of shots if the shot clock was running down, but he was rarely, if ever, the first offensive option.

 

[OttoMets]

Pearl, Sherman Douglas, Adrian Autry, Jason Hart, Gerry McNamara (should have been a 2 but was forced to play point), Jonny Flynn, MCW. So you're putting him in front of 3 guys on that list?

Call it top-6, then, for comity's sake (I'm not touching McNamara).

I do think he was a better college point guard than Hart or Carter-Williams. (Obviously Carter-Williams didn't come close to reaching his ceiling in an incomplete college career.) An argument could be made that he had a better four-year career than Autry, though none of his seasons matched Autry's senior year.

 

[sufandu]

Call it top-6, then, for comity's sake (I'm not touching McNamara).

I do think he was a better college point guard than Hart or Carter-Williams. (Obviously Carter-Williams didn't come close to reaching his ceiling in an incomplete college career.) An argument could be made that he had a better four-year career than Autry, though none of his seasons matched Autry's senior year.

Hmmm, Hart was a 4 year starter with similar offensive stats (for 4 years, not two) that was a lock down on ball defender before we exclusively played zone (I think he still has our record for steals). No Syracuse guard harassed opposing players more. I would put him in front of Scoop. Saying he's better than MCW just because he stayed longer is quite a stretch. You could argue that he meant more to the program because of his longevity, but there is no way he can be considered a better player. Not only did none of his seasons match Autry's senior year, Scoops best season may only be slightly better than Autry's second best year.

 

[OttoMets]

Hmmm, Hart was a 4 year starter with similar offensive stats (for 4 years, not two) that was a lock down on ball defender before we exclusively played zone (I think he still has our record for steals). No Syracuse guard harassed opposing players more. I would put him in front of Scoop. Saying he's better than MCW just because he stayed longer is quite a stretch. You could argue that he meant more to the program because of his longevity, but there is no way he can be considered a better player. Not only did none of his seasons match Autry's senior year, Scoops best season may only be slightly better than Autry's second best year.

Hart played 1,000 more minutes, was a very good defender, and I give him a lot of credit for working his butt off during what must have been a very discouraging 1997 season. But he shot 6 percentage points worse from the field, 4 from three for his career: http://www.orangehoops.org/JHart.htm. His assist-to-turnover ratio was worse (1.63 vs. 1.99).

For Autry, it's closer, mainly because his senior year was the benchmark for what a talented four-year SU point guard should aspire to: 17/6/5 on 45% shooting (37%) from three is excellent. Over their careers, though, Scoop shot 4 percentage points higher, 3 from 3, and had a much better assist-to-turnover (1.99 vs. 1.46).

[In comparing these guys, it occurs to me (again) that I don't think people are aware of what great numbers Scoop put up while he was here. Of point guards, only Pearl, Douglas, and Flynn scored more efficiently. Few had such great assist-to-turnover numbers. Scoop was very good.]

For Mike, it just depends on how one looks at it (and it's easy for perception to become colored by the fact that he's going to be Rookie of the Year). In college, though, all his numbers other than assist totals were markedly worse than Scoop's. There's the intangible of defense (in Mike's favor). While each was wearing a Syracuse jersey, I'd call Scoop the better player.

 

[Millhouse]

How many years did Jonny play at SU?

2

 

[sufandu]

Hart played 1,000 more minutes, was a very good defender, and I give him a lot of credit for working his butt off during what must have been a very discouraging 1997 season. But he shot 6 percentage points worse from the field, 4 from three for his career: http://www.orangehoops.org/JHart.htm. His assist-to-turnover ratio was worse (1.63 vs. 1.99).

For Autry, it's closer, mainly because his senior year was the benchmark for what a talented four-year SU point guard should aspire to: 17/6/5 on 45% shooting (37%) from three is excellent. Over their careers, though, Scoop shot 4 percentage points higher, 3 from 3, and had a much better assist-to-turnover (1.99 vs. 1.46).

[In comparing these guys, it occurs to me (again) that I don't think people are aware of what great numbers Scoop put up while he was here. Of point guards, only Pearl, Douglas, and Flynn scored more efficiently. Few had such great assist-to-turnover numbers. Scoop was very good.]

For Mike, it just depends on how one looks at it (and it's easy for perception to become colored by the fact that he's going to be Rookie of the Year). In college, though, all his numbers other than assist totals were markedly worse than Scoop's. There's the intangible of defense (in Mike's favor). While each was wearing a Syracuse jersey, I'd call Scoop the better player.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. I don't put quite the emphasis on shooting percentage you do.

 

[OttoMets]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. I don't put quite the emphasis on shooting percentage you do.

Fair enough. There's also the eye test as a criterion (subjective, of course), which I think favors Autry over the other three.

 

[sufandu]

Fair enough. There's also the eye test as a criterion (subjective, of course), which I think favors Autry over the other three.

Yeah, I would take Autry there. In my mind, Hart and Jardeen would've been neck and neck there.

 

[OrangePA]

2

Right. I thought Jonny played more than one season - it seems like a long time ago!

And I think that Ennis should have done at least the same thing.

He will get paid, no doubt, but with more time at SU I think he would have a longer and better pro career.

 

[OrangePA]

Hmmm, Hart was a 4 year starter with similar offensive stats (for 4 years, not two) that was a lock down on ball defender before we exclusively played zone (I think he still has our record for steals). No Syracuse guard harassed opposing players more. I would put him in front of Scoop. Saying he's better than MCW just because he stayed longer is quite a stretch. You could argue that he meant more to the program because of his longevity, but there is no way he can be considered a better player. Not only did none of his seasons match Autry's senior year, Scoops best season may only be slightly better than Autry's second best year.

Hart's pro career settles the issue in my opinion.

He had a nice run.

 

[orangefan13]

No he wasn't. Both Rick Jackson and Kris Joseph scored more than him. You're number 1 option isn't the team's third leading scorer while averaging less than 6 assists per game. I'll give you that he took a lot of shots if the shot clock was running down, but he was rarely, if ever, the first offensive option.

I kind of agree besides the numbers that scoop was the best option on that team. Agree with your point on giving it to scoop with the shotclock running down. And, KJO, Rick and Triche really weren't the isolation threats you were looking for when you needed a tough basket against good defense either.

Jackson,Triche and KJO I never considered all around scorers like scoop. Scoop was our most confident jumpshooter(3 point and in), and our best dribble penetrator to dion very late in the season. He also had strong upperarms that helped him to finish tough layups in the lane, and a pretty good midrange jumpshot to go with it. He was a true all around scorer. He may have been our best isolation scorer on that team as well.


just a opinion based on that teams chemistry, all numbers aside.

 

[SUGIANT]

4 years, 1 year or something in between. I have always enjoyed SU basketball and will continue to do so. No matter how long any individual player stays. BTW, Carmelo was a 1 year player so if I had a choice I'd take him...

 

[SUGIANT]

Yeah never heard of a team winning it all with a one and done.

I hope that's sarcasm

 

[SUGIANT]

During Scoop's junior year there were threads about whether Brandon Reese was a better option at point. lol

Yeah but that doesn't mean is was a legitimate debate. Just because someone takes a stupid decision doesn't make it a valid one.

 

[SUGIANT]

I can't tell if the original poster is serious or joking...I understand the being a part of us, but our only ring came with a guy who we got INCREDIBLY lucky didn't go straight to the NBA. Without Melo, what is our program? Ennis had the opportunity to do something really special. MCW took us to a Final 4. Yeah Scoop was a good player, but we bashed his game constantly when here. CJ is a different story as he was a FAR superior player to Scoop AND took us to a final 4.

No luck about Melo going straight to the NBA. The rules said the players has to play a year of college or wait 2 years (something like that). He came here because he had to play.

 

[wfschrec]

No luck about Melo going straight to the NBA. The rules said the players has to play a year of college or wait 2 years (something like that). He came here because he had to play.

The rule came after Melo ... LBJ was the same draft class man.

 

[strumpfasaurus]

I hope that's sarcasm

Lol yes.