Great game by our freshmen!

[Red Holzman]

He and Marek were terrible down the stretch. So was the entire team really. Girard stopped scoring too.

Debatable, but saw signs of fatigue -a factor in not closing out strong for the W.
Liked Edwards in there -actually disappointed when Sidibe returned.

 

[Newhouser]

The biggest mistake the O did yesterday was to not get a freshman the ball. Q should have got the ball a lot more inside in the second half especially with all the foul trouble the NCS bigs had.

I agree - it seems we made a conscious decision to use Marek and hope Buddy found it. Q got gassed too I think as he was much less active on the glass.

 

[Ghost]

A board icon. Devo was absolutely dreadful on defense. He didn't even try. Did you notice how bad he was when he was playing? Most of our poorer defenders have been at the two. Going back to Marty Headd. We had a mickey Dees 2 guard named Michael brown. Amazing shooter. Another kid that didn't care about defense. Caleb Joseph couldn't guard anyone. That is quick off the top of my head.

Trying to play basketball with one guard...tough sell. Villanova has tried it with 4. Having your shooting guard being the guy that everyone has to sell out for to get shots is a rather precarious position. It's certainly not ideal. There should be some aptitude at that position to do stuff outside of match-up based penetration. We NEEDED Beverly to be on Buddy to even have him functioning last night. It was kinda like a Baylor redux!

Devo had lots other skills - what did he shoot from 3 v Buddy?

Devo could handle really well, drive really well, was about a 12 out of 10 on finishing with his left hand from near or afar, could finish very well overall - having a shooting guard that can't alleviate pressure is not great. Buddy's like a shorter, slower, weaker, less athletic version of Tyler Lydon - but at SG. Phenomenal season, player, etc...but really lacking in many areas that players like Devo did not.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Debatable, but saw signs of fatigue -a factor in not closing out strong for the W.
Liked Edwards in there -actually disappointed when Sidibe returned.

He was rotating them in and out to setup the press.

 

[OttoMets]

Sure they can get better. But I don’t buy they’ll get to even average in our current defense. And the biggest issue is they play together. If each one of them played next to a Triche or MCW or someone that has some athletic aptitude out there, it’d be one thing. Together I’m not sure it’s ever going to be a tenable venture.

That's obviously an aggravating factor that will limit their improvement. But I do think they can and will improve.

What concerns me is the lack of emphasis on defense from the staff: some of the breakdowns and flat-out lapses in effort (like the Girard play you mentioned above) should earn both of them a quick seat and a reminder that defense matters while Washington and Goodine give max effort and show them how it's done for 90 seconds. Not to go all curmudgeonly old meathead here, but letting them play through terrible defense sends them the wrong message and won't help their development. Give me the 2009 Boeheim philosophy: you lolligag, you sit.

 

[OttoMets]

He missed 6 tonight. Looks like he could use some more.

I've never seen an SU hoops player be so bad on defense get the minutes that buddy does. How about you?

Devendorf and Flynn. But I'm afraid even they might not have gotten those minutes, even when Flynn was briefly playing on a 6-man team with The Walk-On Justin Thomas backing him up in February 2008.

 

[OttoMets]

Anyone remember John Wallace’s closeout on the play where Georgia took the lead against us in 96, right before he hit the game winning 3?

You put forth more effort in typing this post than Wallace did in wandering toward the shooter in the corner.

 

[OttoMets]

...

That was a team where I think all the key guys got the most out of their ability that year and played their roles well and played well together.

And teams carried three assistants and very little additional support staff, film review was much more limited, teams shot like 12 threes per game, and literally nobody had seen a 2-3 zone defense since middle school.

I loved that team. But that defense would give up 80 a night in 2020.

 

[dasher]

Trying to play basketball with one guard...tough sell. Villanova has tried it with 4. Having your shooting guard being the guy that everyone has to sell out for to get shots is a rather precarious position. It's certainly not ideal. There should be some aptitude at that position to do stuff outside of match-up based penetration. We NEEDED Beverly to be on Buddy to even have him functioning last night. It was kinda like a Baylor redux!

Devo had lots other skills - what did he shoot from 3 v Buddy?

Devo could handle really well, drive really well, was about a 12 out of 10 on finishing with his left hand from near or afar, could finish very well overall - having a shooting guard that can't alleviate pressure is not great. Buddy's like a shorter, slower, weaker, less athletic version of Tyler Lydon - but at SG. Phenomenal season, player, etc...but really lacking in many areas that players like Devo did not.

He was horrible on defense. Not interested in playing it really. Why the need to talk about his offense is not understood. He had fabulous offensive skills. I was asked for other defensive players that were not very good and played a lot. First name I thought of.

 

[Fly Rodder]

There's a lot of people who take criticism of Syracuse basketball personally.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Devendorf and Flynn. But I'm afraid even they might not have gotten those minutes, even when Flynn was briefly playing on a 6-man team with The Walk-On Justin Thomas backing him up in February 2008.

The 40 minute thing is a recent trend. I'd say the last 5 years. Started with Gbinije and Cooney.

 

[Fly Rodder]

The 40 minute thing is a recent trend. I'd say the last 5 years. Started with Gbinije and Cooney.

The trend is, but the earliest gamelog that BBRef has (which only go back to 2010) is Rick Jackson in November 2010 against Detroit Mercy (!) when he corralled 22 rebounds.

Playing one or two 40+ seems to have started with Ennis and Fair, they were the first to log 10+ games each.

Tyus Battle is the career record holder with 40+ minute games (37) followed by Brissett (23), Cooney (21), Hughes (20), and Fair (20).

17-18 was the year with the most 40+ minute games (Tyus, Frank, Brissett, and Chukwu combined to log 70 (!). There have been 36 games this season. 14-15 had 41 games.

12-13 was the season with the most players with at least one 40+ game (7). Followed by 14-15 (6). But 12-13 only had 22 total games.

 

[Cusefan0307]

The trend is, but the earliest gamelog that BBRef has (which only go back to 2010) is Rick Jackson in November 2010 against Detroit Mercy (!) when he corralled 22 rebounds.

Playing one or two 40+ seems to have started with Ennis and Fair, they were the first to log 10+ games each.

Tyus Battle is the career record holder with 40+ minute games (37) followed by Brissett (23), Cooney (21), Hughes (20), and Fair (20).

17-18 was the year with the most 40+ minute games (Tyus, Frank, Brissett, and Chukwu combined to log 70 (!). There have been 36 games this season. 14-15 had 41 games.

12-13 was the season with the most players with at least one 40+ game (7). Followed by 14-15 (6). But 12-13 only had 22 total games.

Great analysis. It's amazing we haven't had more injuries the last few years with those minutes.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

The trend is, but the earliest gamelog that BBRef has (which only go back to 2010) is Rick Jackson in November 2010 against Detroit Mercy (!) when he corralled 22 rebounds.

Playing one or two 40+ seems to have started with Ennis and Fair, they were the first to log 10+ games each.

Tyus Battle is the career record holder with 40+ minute games (37) followed by Brissett (23), Cooney (21), Hughes (20), and Fair (20).

17-18 was the year with the most 40+ minute games (Tyus, Frank, Brissett, and Chukwu combined to log 70 (!). There have been 36 games this season. 14-15 had 41 games.

12-13 was the season with the most players with at least one 40+ game (7). Followed by 14-15 (6). But 12-13 only had 22 total games.

In the words of Benjamin J. Grimm, the ever-lovin' blue eyed Thing,

 

[SUFan44]

The trend is, but the earliest gamelog that BBRef has (which only go back to 2010) is Rick Jackson in November 2010 against Detroit Mercy (!) when he corralled 22 rebounds.

Playing one or two 40+ seems to have started with Ennis and Fair, they were the first to log 10+ games each.

Tyus Battle is the career record holder with 40+ minute games (37) followed by Brissett (23), Cooney (21), Hughes (20), and Fair (20).

17-18 was the year with the most 40+ minute games (Tyus, Frank, Brissett, and Chukwu combined to log 70 (!). There have been 36 games this season. 14-15 had 41 games.

12-13 was the season with the most players with at least one 40+ game (7). Followed by 14-15 (6). But 12-13 only had 22 total games.

I think that's recent data but if you go back much further, you'll see the same type of trend.

'95-96, I would bet John Wallace, Lazarus Sims and maybe Todd Burgan played their fair share of 40 minute games.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Great analysis. It's amazing we haven't had more injuries the last few years with those minutes.

And it really is a Syracuse thing. I looked at a few other top-tier teams and only other team that's close to SU is Duke with like 130 total over the same time frame.

 

[Fly Rodder]

I think that's recent data but if you go back much further, you'll see the same type of trend.

'95-96, I would bet John Wallace, Lazarus Sims and maybe Todd Burgan played their fair share of 40 minute games.

I was just looking at the available data on BBRef which only goes back to 2010-11. Jon Wallace (36) and Sims (35) averaged 36 mpg or less in their highest minute seasons. but they did have some 39 and 40 minute games in the tourney. Without the box scores, it's just a guess though.

Prior to 2013-14, it looks more like an occasional thing for the best senior(s). Since then, it's a larger component of the game strategy by JAB.

 

[jdubs30]

The trend is, but the earliest gamelog that BBRef has (which only go back to 2010) is Rick Jackson in November 2010 against Detroit Mercy (!) when he corralled 22 rebounds.

Playing one or two 40+ seems to have started with Ennis and Fair, they were the first to log 10+ games each.

Tyus Battle is the career record holder with 40+ minute games (37) followed by Brissett (23), Cooney (21), Hughes (20), and Fair (20).

17-18 was the year with the most 40+ minute games (Tyus, Frank, Brissett, and Chukwu combined to log 70 (!). There have been 36 games this season. 14-15 had 41 games.

12-13 was the season with the most players with at least one 40+ game (7). Followed by 14-15 (6). But 12-13 only had 22 total games.

Wow Brissett did that in 2 years and Eli did it in a year and a half

 

[Gabjon]

I was just looking at the available data on BBRef which only goes back to 2010-11. Jon Wallace (36) and Sims (35) averaged 36 mpg or less in their highest minute seasons. but they did have some 39 and 40 minute games in the tourney. Without the box scores, it's just a guess though.

Prior to 2013-14, it looks more like an occasional thing for the best senior(s). Since then, it's a larger component of the game strategy by JAB.

Cuse.com goes back at least to 2000

Year-by-Year Statistics/Final Release - Syracuse University Athletics

2022-23 Season 2022-23 Results and Statistics 2022-23 Final Release (pdf.) First Row (l to r): Katie Scanlon, director of student-athlete development, Dan Sh...

cuse.com

 

[Newhouser]

That's obviously an aggravating factor that will limit their improvement. But I do think they can and will improve.

What concerns me is the lack of emphasis on defense from the staff: some of the breakdowns and flat-out lapses in effort (like the Girard play you mentioned above) should earn both of them a quick seat and a reminder that defense matters while Washington and Goodine give max effort and show them how it's done for 90 seconds. Not to go all curmudgeonly old meathead here, but letting them play through terrible defense sends them the wrong message and won't help their development. Give me the 2009 Boeheim philosophy: you lolligag, you sit.

That ship/theory sales when you have a family member on the team. I don't care what anyone says - it makes it difficult to have absolutes on what gets you benched and what doesn't, when the team has a father and son combo.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Cuse.com goes back at least to 2000

Year-by-Year Statistics/Final Release - Syracuse University Athletics

2022-23 Season 2022-23 Results and Statistics 2022-23 Final Release (pdf.) First Row (l to r): Katie Scanlon, director of student-athlete development, Dan Sh...

cuse.com

Great! Looks like a great resource for someone else to go through pdfs and pull stats and compile them.

I'll stand by my original post that this trend really got going in 13-14.

 

[OttoMets]

I think that's recent data but if you go back much further, you'll see the same type of trend.

'95-96, I would bet John Wallace, Lazarus Sims and maybe Todd Burgan played their fair share of 40 minute games.

My memory: not really. (I often cite the example of Wallace getting a breather against Kentucky...if Boeheim can afford to rest an all-time top-ten SU player in the second half of a national championship game, he can rest anybody without losing too much.)

The data: not really.

3 for Wallace (in the national semifinal, in the regional final, a big loss at West Virginia*)
4 for Sims (the national semifinal, the 45-minute full game against Georgia, the to-the-wire Senior Day Notre Dame game, the loss at West Virginia)
1 for Burgan (the loss at West Virginia).

Think of the number of great opponents that I didn't list above: #3 Arizona, after a cross-country flight; #1 UMass, in Hawaii; #5 UConn (and then #3 UConn in the Big East semi); #2 Kentucky in the case of the two forwards...in each of those games, Boeheim thought a minute or two of rest for Wallace, with Reafsnyder or Bobby Lazor at the 4, was better for the team than a full game with Wallace on the floor.

And what's really startling is the number of league games where these guys were playing in the low 30s or even high 20s - Wallace had more 20-odd minute nights (6) than he did full games (3). That really makes a difference in terms of preventing cumulative fatigue during the course of the season. And Boeheim's not even strategically doing that in games with a comfortable margin these days, forget about back-and-forth games.

My conclusion: well...you all know my conclusion by now.

*I don't remember this West Virginia game (though I remember that we lost sort of frequently to them in the late '90s), but it must've been a weird one. 3 starters played the full game, Elimu Nelson played 8, and it was the last game before Cipolla entered the starting lineup.

 

[OttoMets]

That ship/theory sales when you have a family member on the team. I don't care what anyone says - it makes it difficult to have absolutes on what gets you benched and what doesn't, when the team has a father and son combo.

Yeah, I don't want to presume to get into that dynamic, it can't be easy on him.

 

[SUFan44]

My memory: not really. (I often cite the example of Wallace getting a breather against Kentucky...if Boeheim can afford to rest an all-time top-ten SU player in the second half of a national championship game, he can rest anybody without losing too much.)

The data: not really.

3 for Wallace (in the national semifinal, in the regional final, a big loss at West Virginia*)
4 for Sims (the national semifinal, the 45-minute full game against Georgia, the to-the-wire Senior Day Notre Dame game, the loss at West Virginia)
1 for Burgan (the loss at West Virginia).

Think of the number of great opponents that I didn't list above: #3 Arizona, after a cross-country flight; #1 UMass, in Hawaii; #5 UConn (and then #3 UConn in the Big East semi); #2 Kentucky in the case of the two forwards...in each of those games, Boeheim thought a minute or two of rest for Wallace, with Reafsnyder or Bobby Lazor at the 4, was better for the team than a full game with Wallace on the floor.

And what's really startling is the number of league games where these guys were playing in the low 30s or even high 20s - Wallace had more 20-odd minute nights (6) than he did full games (3). That really makes a difference in terms of preventing cumulative fatigue during the course of the season. And Boeheim's not even strategically doing that in games with a comfortable margin these days, forget about back-and-forth games.

My conclusion: well...you all know my conclusion by now.

*I don't remember this West Virginia game (though I remember that we lost sort of frequently to them in the late '90s), but it must've been a weird one. 3 starters played the full game, Elimu Nelson played 8, and it was the last game before Cipolla entered the starting lineup.

Good stuff. Would have definitely thought more for Sims due to him being the only PG capable of playing Division I basketball.

Boeheim has often called out the media timeouts and the breaks in action as a reason guys can play as many minutes now as he plays them. Were media timeouts that much shorter or infrequent during those days in the mid 90s?

Given our proclivity to getting into foul trouble, his usage of Edwards this season has been outright disrespectful and has hindered his development. If he's ready or not, the only way you're going to get better is if you see some action. And the last 4 minutes of ACC games where your other two (less than stellar) options at the position have fouled out isn't an ideal time.

 

[OttoMets]

...

Boeheim has often called out the media timeouts and the breaks in action as a reason guys can play as many minutes now as he plays them. Were media timeouts that much shorter or infrequent during those days in the mid 90s?
...

I would love to know the answer to this, haven't been able to find it in writing anywhere and it's tough to piece together based on old game clips (in part because I seem to remember that TV timeouts only existed for televised games for several years - basically two different sets of timeout rules within the same season).

But his use of media timeouts -- sit a guy on a dead ball a few seconds before a timeout, send him to the scorer's table at the next dead ball afterward -- was so strong for so many years, even while some of us questioned his comfort level with bench management overall. And then -- poof -- he became basically a science denier and totally gave up on that level of strategizing.