Great officiating

[ForCuseSake]

To me the two plays that were equally game changing were Duke's back to back possessions when Winslow threw up off balance prayers and flopped like he was shot with a 12 gauge.

Both times there was minor, if any, contact. And both times he canned all free throws. This was the ball game for me.

I think these possessions were sandwiched around the Cooney fast break & Christmas muggings that weren't called. Just horrible inconsistency.

But Roberson choking at the line hurt just as much as this discrepancy in officiating.

 

[upperdeck]

the first basket of the game was goal tending everyone in the bldg saw it but the refs and thats not a let them play call.

 

[longislandcuse]

I checked out a Duke message board and even they admitted they got the benefit of a few calls towards the end of the game. They, like the ref defenders here, say that it makes up for some calls that went our way earlier in the game...

I again ask you, it happened against UNC and it happened again against Duke, would you rather get a few calls early in the game or get some egregious fouls/non-fouls late in the game go your way? I'm taking those end of second half game changers every time...

Nothing that even the hardest Duke fan can claim evened last nights game out can actually even out a Cuse down 7 non call/call that took 2 points away from us and gave them to Duke under ten minutes left and a down 4 non call/call that kept Okafor in the game and took 2 free throws from us and gave 2 points to Duke.

Bottom Line.. We're the only school I watch that gets consistently punked by officiating at home. There is a reason home court counts for a few points in gambling, I guess our home court fan support at the dome should be cancelled out by the eventual poor anti-home team officiating that will surely follow when Vegas factors in our spreads.

Rak played bad, no two ways around it, but there is ZERO chance they let Okafor get beat up like that without a few more whistles, and this is some every game type ish with Rak. It's getting old.

The fallacy that refs don't decide games is just that, a complete fallacy. Refs don't decide games between teams that are mismatches but when you take two teams, evenly matched, and yes, for all our warts, we are pretty evenly matched with the UNC and Dukes of this year, the refs, more often than not in CBB decide the outcome. You can always say, well if we did this better or that better but we're not perfect and neither is Duke, it's up to the officials to keep the game dependant on the talent and coaching and they just don't. With their bad calls one way and/or total disregard for the players knowing What a foul or not foul is, they determine games between evenly matched teams. Saying they don't is a fallacy.

 

[OrangeDW]

I checked out a Duke message board and even they admitted they got the benefit of a few calls towards the end of the game. They, like the ref defenders here, say that it makes up for some calls that went our way earlier in the game...

I again ask you, it happened against UNC and it happened again against Duke, would you rather get a few calls early in the game or get some egregious fouls/non-fouls late in the game go your way? I'm taking those end of second half game changers every time...

Nothing that even the hardest Duke fan can claim evened last nights game out can actually even out a Cuse down 7 non call/call that took 2 points away from us and gave them to Duke under ten minutes left and a down 4 non call/call that kept Okafor in the game and took 2 free throws from us and gave 2 points to Duke.

Bottom Line.. We're the only school I watch that gets consistently punked by officiating at home. There is a reason home court counts for a few points in gambling, I guess our home court fan support at the dome should be cancelled out by the eventual poor anti-home team officiating that will surely follow when Vegas factors in our spreads.

Rak played bad, no two ways around it, but there is ZERO chance they let Okafor get beat up like that without a few more whistles, and this is some every game type ish with Rak. It's getting old.

The fallacy that refs don't decide games is just that, a complete fallacy. Refs don't decide games between teams that are mismatches but when you take two teams, evenly matched, and yes, for all our warts, we are pretty evenly matched with the UNC and Dukes of this year, the refs, more often than not in CBB decide the outcome. You can always say, well if we did this better or that better but we're not perfect and neither is Duke, it's up to the officials to keep the game dependant on the talent and coaching and they just don't. With their bad calls one way and/or total disregard for the players knowing What a foul or not foul is, they determine games between evenly matched teams. Saying they don't is a fallacy.

I really don't even care about college hoops anymore because of it. Not even worth getting invested in. The refs ruined the sport.

 

[Cowtown]

Ahhhh "the don't blame the refs" crowd is out in full force.

This made me laugh.

I didn't see the game - haven't seen one since Villanova, I believe - but I have noticed something: this year, with the weakest team in several years, there's always a "the refs sucked" thread after every game. Hmmm ...

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Ahhhh "the don't blame the refs" crowd is out in full force.

In the last 1/4th of the game, Duke was +8 in ref bs...

-The non call on Cooney that resulted in a fast break the other way and 2 points for Duke.

-The non call on Okafor that took away 2 Cuse free throw attempts down 4 and gave Duke a fast break, 2 points and Okafor to fouling out at that point.

Seriously... What is your rebuttal ref defenders!? A non-call on us in the first half?...lol ok.

There were like 4 non-calls in the first half that went our way. But that's beside the point. It's the complete and utter lack of consistency that was the problem with the refs yesterday. I don't care if the refs let everything go or call everything. Just pick one way to call the game and stick with it throughout. And they failed miserably with that yesterday.

 

[longislandcuse]

This made me laugh.

I didn't see the game - haven't seen one since Villanova, I believe - but I have noticed something: this year, with the weakest team in several years, there's always a "the refs sucked" thread after every game. Hmmm ...

We've definitely had ref blaming threads with good teams. See Cuse/Ohio State and Cuse/Michigan NCAAT games.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

I checked out a Duke message board and even they admitted they got the benefit of a few calls towards the end of the game. They, like the ref defenders here, say that it makes up for some calls that went our way earlier in the game...

I again ask you, it happened against UNC and it happened again against Duke, would you rather get a few calls early in the game or get some egregious fouls/non-fouls late in the game go your way? I'm taking those end of second half game changers every time...

Nothing that even the hardest Duke fan can claim evened last nights game out can actually even out a Cuse down 7 non call/call that took 2 points away from us and gave them to Duke under ten minutes left and a down 4 non call/call that kept Okafor in the game and took 2 free throws from us and gave 2 points to Duke.

Bottom Line.. We're the only school I watch that gets consistently punked by officiating at home. There is a reason home court counts for a few points in gambling, I guess our home court fan support at the dome should be cancelled out by the eventual poor anti-home team officiating that will surely follow when Vegas factors in our spreads.

Rak played bad, no two ways around it, but there is ZERO chance they let Okafor get beat up like that without a few more whistles, and this is some every game type ish with Rak. It's getting old.

The fallacy that refs don't decide games is just that, a complete fallacy. Refs don't decide games between teams that are mismatches but when you take two teams, evenly matched, and yes, for all our warts, we are pretty evenly matched with the UNC and Dukes of this year, the refs, more often than not in CBB decide the outcome. You can always say, well if we did this better or that better but we're not perfect and neither is Duke, it's up to the officials to keep the game dependant on the talent and coaching and they just don't. With their bad calls one way and/or total disregard for the players knowing What a foul or not foul is, they determine games between evenly matched teams. Saying they don't is a fallacy.

A non-tournament team will not get officiating help to beat a ranked ACC team. Period.

 

[orangefan13]

I enjoyed the one ref who sat at our baseline the entire second half and ignored every foul duke had on us, but whisted us for awful offensive over the back calls instead that guy was a piece of work. He had one job didn't even have to move his lazy @ss on the court and couldn't even do that right.

ON the other hand We didn't exactly win the game , Duke outplayed us second half on both ends no question about it.

 

[Cowtown]

I will allow that if someone who is normally as fair and balanced as reedny is pissed, then something was most likely up. And my offer at large to the refereeing dilemma still remains, as in to no one specifically, is to join your local association and become a ref. It will change how you understand not only the refs, but the game itself. And I guarantee you, even if you only stay at it for a couple seasons, it will be the most humbling experience you've ever had. Others will decide they like doing it and enjoy a long "career" at it. I did, and that's why I stay at it - I enjoy the challenge. Because it's the most difficult thing, by at least an order of magnitude, I've ever done in any athletic enterprise.

 

[longislandcuse]

I enjoyed the one ref who sat at our baseline the entire second half and ignored every foul duke had on us, but whisted us for awful offensive over the back calls instead that guy was a piece of work. He had one job didn't even have to move his lazy @ss on the court and couldn't even do that right.

ON the other hand We didn't exactly win the game , Duke outplayed us second half on both ends no question about it.

Totally agree with that. We can't say we deserved to win but we were robbed of the opportunity to win because like I said earlier, we're not perfect; we missed bunnies and free throws but neither is Duke; they turned it over in a few spots where we could've really capitalized, that being said the game was pretty evenly played if you look at it as a 40 minute contest. One team got away with a few instances of overly physical play in the first half while the other team got two game changing momentum destroyers in the last 10 minutes including the most egregious non call I've seen in a while that changed it from a 2 point game, 3 minutes left and Okafor out directly to a 6 point game and Okafor still in.

 

[Ghost]

I will allow that if someone who is normally as fair and balanced as reedny is pissed, then something was most likely up. And my offer at large to the refereeing dilemma still remains, as in to no one specifically, is to join your local association and become a ref. It will change how you understand not only the refs, but the game itself. And I guarantee you, even if you only stay at it for a couple seasons, it will be the most humbling experience you've ever had. Others will decide they like doing it and enjoy a long "career" at it. I did, and that's why I stay at it - I enjoy the challenge. Because it's the most difficult thing, by at least an order of magnitude, I've ever done in any athletic enterprise.

Weird, I don't think there have been many threads blaming the refs at all this year. There was the 'Nova game, and A TON of posts since the ACC season started about how bad the officials have been with their inability to calls fouls for Christmas in the post. If you don't think he's taking a beating down there, that's fine, but I think most reasonable (probably everyone here) thinks that's the case though.

Then this game. Which, in fairness I thought was atrocious all night, but at the end, I will concede to LongIsland that we were destroyed at the end with bad calls (since Okafor was absolutely 100% out of that game with 3:00 left (as Bilas emphatically agreed with) and again 30 seconds later...and the refs missed those. That being said, they missed a ton of everything. They also missed that strange two-man onslaught against Roberson's arms on the baseline that resulted in the ball going out of bounds off of Duke...they almost took his arms off. Roberson's face looked like he had instantaneous PTSD.

They did the worst overall job I have seen in a bit. We're talking straight up arm-grab/jersey-pulls with players being re-directed - in the open-court - that weren't called. Which is different than 'Nova which was one-sided from the jump.

BTW, maybe the highlight of the night was this moment by Bilas (paraphrasing):

The refs just stopped the game to tell the players to stop complaining about all the bad calls. They (the players) should stop complaining. They're right to complain. I mean, they're right about the bad calls, and they're complaint is valid, but they shouldn't be complaining. They are missing a ton of calls out there, but they should just play.

WTG, Jay!!!

 

[reedny]

Yes, Cooney was clearly fouled on his fast-break but so was Duke's Grayson Allen on his. I've also seen no mention of Rak's clear charge running over Plumlee that was called a block, though the foul on Rak when Plumlee lowered his shoulder & did the same makes that a wash.

My point is that you can play the "bad call trade-off" game all night, but it's not why we lost

It's not just missed calls ... it's WHEN. First half .. whatever. The score was about even. But when the game's on the line -- and we're making a comeback, two critical non-calls in those few minutes down the stretch .. those were game-changers. The one no-call on Okafor draped on Rak -- would have been Okafor's fifth personal foul, AND Rak would have gone to the line with a chance to cut into a 4 point Duke lead.

Again, kudos to Duke. They were the better team, and if I had to site one factor as "decisive" it would be our porous defense at the top of the zone at the end of the game. That said, incompetent officiating leaves everyone with a sour taste .. and not only diminishes enjoyment of the game but also spectators' respect for the outcome.

 

[skurey]

Points in the first half are worth the same amount as the 2nd half. True story.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Look guys, I'll call out the refs when they cost us a game (see: Villanova), but we got away with just as much garbage as Duke. I don't think it was well reffed, but it was evenly reffed.

Evenly reffed doesn't make it good officiating. That's the point of this thread.

 

[reedny]

I will allow that if someone who is normally as fair and balanced as reedny is pissed, then something was most likely up. And my offer at large to the refereeing dilemma still remains, as in to no one specifically, is to join your local association and become a ref. It will change how you understand not only the refs, but the game itself. And I guarantee you, even if you only stay at it for a couple seasons, it will be the most humbling experience you've ever had. Others will decide they like doing it and enjoy a long "career" at it. I did, and that's why I stay at it - I enjoy the challenge. Because it's the most difficult thing, by at least an order of magnitude, I've ever done in any athletic enterprise.

Hey, Cow ... I'm glad to hear you're officiating .. that's great. If you have anything close to 20/20 vision you can join the ACC -- they need you!!

Actually, I tried reffing one local (non-interscholastic) game .. and I was really bad. I got some calls right, but then I called a foul on one guy for smacking someone on his own team. It was a foul .. but that didn't help me much when my buddies started ridiculing me.. (for good reason).

 

[upperdeck]

its not easy. but some calls are easier than others and when you reach a certain level some of it should get easier not harder.. its often knowing where to look before it happens and keeping your head moving. its no different than any other job. some people advance because they stay in it not because they are good at it.

 

[Conrad13]

Hey, Cow ... I'm glad to hear you're officiating .. that's great. If you have anything close to 20/20 vision you can join the ACC -- they need you!!

Actually, I tried reffing one local (non-interscholastic) game .. and I was really bad. I got some calls right, but then I called a foul on one guy for smacking someone on his own team. It was a foul .. but that didn't help me much when my buddies started ridiculing me.. (for good reason).

I had a similar experience in HS. Our gym teacher would have the guys on the team ref our games in gym class. It was a humbling experience to say the least.

 

[longislandcuse]

Points in the first half are worth the same amount as the 2nd half. True story.

So a non call on us in the first half is exactly the same as the Rak/Okafor 4 point swing with 3 minutes left that kept Okafor in the game. Got it.

 

[Cowtown]

Hey, Cow ... I'm glad to hear you're officiating .. that's great. If you have anything close to 20/20 vision you can join the ACC -- they need you!!

Actually, I tried reffing one local (non-interscholastic) game .. and I was really bad. I got some calls right, but then I called a foul on one guy for smacking someone on his own team. It was a foul .. but that didn't help me much when my buddies started ridiculing me.. (for good reason).

Hey man, thanks for the vote of confidence. I have about 20 years in, sandwiched around 15 years of coaching. To be sure, I'm less than perfect, and I certainly wasn't putting a shot on you (which you I know you know ). I just wanted to encourage anyone who feels the urge to ref to get out and do it. It really is a terrific experience, well worth the time put in. One of the nicer things about it is when you walk into a coach's gym and when he sees you he smiles and says, "Hey, good to see you. How've you been?" Because he knows you're competent, and that he's gonna "get fair." Most coaches recognize if you hustle and work hard to be fair, they're happy to have you and will leave you alone, even if you kick a call, because we're all here so kids can play basketball. Now, there are times when, after an ugly game you can't do anything with, that it's good to just get out of the gym, but those are outnumbered by the good ones.

A brief aside, if I may. After a tournament game some years ago, a parent (from Raymond, AB - Mormon country - where they think they know more about hoops than everybody else) approached me in the hall after a game and politely said, "Can I ask you a question?" and I said "Sure." He asked "Why would anyone want to be a basketball ref?" I told him I liked the challenge, that I liked doing something that was so difficult. He smiled and said, "Thanks for doing it without all the the ego we usually get." I was so surprised I could only think to say "Thank you" and shake the guy's hand, But today it's a favorite remembrance of mine, and I'm really quietly pleased some guy came forward to say that. And his kid's team was beaten in that game. Sure we get paid, but you can't buy a feeling like that.

So once again, a call to all. If anyone can do better, by all means come on out and do it. You'll enjoy it, and we'll all be glad to have you.

 

[jordoo]

I will allow that if someone who is normally as fair and balanced as reedny is pissed, then something was most likely up. And my offer at large to the refereeing dilemma still remains, as in to no one specifically, is to join your local association and become a ref. It will change how you understand not only the refs, but the game itself. And I guarantee you, even if you only stay at it for a couple seasons, it will be the most humbling experience you've ever had. Others will decide they like doing it and enjoy a long "career" at it. I did, and that's why I stay at it - I enjoy the challenge. Because it's the most difficult thing, by at least an order of magnitude, I've ever done in any athletic enterprise.

In theory I get what you are saying and yes for travel leagues, high school sports and armature leagues this is fine and when involved in that type of stuff I'm not at all likely to complain. Perhaps I'll point out a particularly bad call but its not upsetting as they make very little or nothing at all and in the end its no ones career at stake.

The thing with NCAA officiating is that it could very easily be fixed or at least get to an area of consistency if they would do what the NBA has done. They train the refs, pay them well, grade them out and give them at least a correct/incorrect feedback on every call they make. The better they do the more bonus's they receive. Its easy to fix IMO but you have to spend money and it would need to be run/overseen by a board of conference Athletic Department Representatives to make sure that they were grading and reviewing properly.