Harden to the Rockets

[PoppyHart]

OKC absolutely mandhandled Houston in this trade. Harden was gonna be gone after this year. Martin will likely be gone after this year. Basically got Jeremy Lamb, 2 1st round picks (1 of which is most likely a top 8 pick), and an early 2nd round pick for nothing.

And Martin isn't a big drop off from Harden. Only question really now is whether or not Maynor can run things when Westbrook needs a break. If he's healthy, OKC is just as good as they were before and now has a chance at landing a big time rookie next year.

Why would he be gone? He was a restricted free agent and OKC would have had another year to see if he warranted a max deal.

 

[Gabjon]

Why would he be gone? He was a restricted free agent and OKC would have had another year to see if he warranted a max deal.

It wasn't about warranting a max deal its about the luxury tax OKC would have to pay if that resigned him for a max deal, which is $4 for every $1 over the cap.

 

[realorange]

Why would he be gone? He was a restricted free agent and OKC would have had another year to see if he warranted a max deal.

Read the article I referenced above and you'll understand why they didn't want to give him a max deal.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

The thing the media isn't saying is that OKC only moved all these pieces around just so they could sign Rautins. Cleverly disguised Sam Presti, kudos...

 

[Gabjon]

The thing the media isn't saying is that OKC only moved all these pieces around just so they could sign Rautins. Cleverly disguised Sam Presti, kudos...

I can't tell if you're joking but I expect Andy and Orton to be resigned

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Hope Andy makes the team. Still an average shooter who can't guard anyone in the NBA. Just the way it is.

BS about guys not being happy enough with money. Get every damn dime. They have a limited earning window. What's the difference between 12 mil and 15 mil? Or 48 and 60? A lot of money!!! Somehow people think its all relative. When average Joe gets a 5k raise and see it in your paycheck, its really nice. Millions matter, careers are short. Get paid.

Such bizarre hypocrisy. These are jobs. Any of us would take more money in our gigs. And do it elsewhere, with another company, if they were willing to pay us a lot more.

Oh stop. The average american coming out of college today will make just about 2 million over their life times. That's less than the amount of money these guys are complaining about not getting, let alone the 12 million you talked about. Sure, they have a talent that most of the world does not, but if they weren't such idiots with their own spending, they wouldn't have to worry about trying to milk every dollar they can out of reluctant owners. And if Harden could actually hit a shot, he might have gotten paid what he thinks he deserves.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Houston gave up a lot, for sure.

Harden's no show in the finals greased the skids for this deal I think.

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And the Olympics. Has he made a 3 pointer in the last 6 months?

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

Well, they offered him a good bit of money to stay, but in no way, shape or form do the Thunder think of Harden as a max/star player. He's a great guy to have coming off the bench and a versatile guard. But, honestly...the Thunder really like Perry Jones and they think Kevin Martin can give them instant offense like Harden did off the bench. They are going to have a versatile group of wing players and won't lose a step without Harden.

 

[Knicks411]

Why would he be gone? He was a restricted free agent and OKC would have had another year to see if he warranted a max deal.

Someone was going to offer him a max deal next off-season (or close to it) and then Okc was going to have to decide to match or not.

It wasn't about warranting a max deal its about the luxury tax OKC would have to pay if that resigned him for a max deal, which is $4 for every $1 over the cap.

This is not totally true. It's $4 if you are a repeater and you are at least $15 million over the tax. And it's not $4 for every $1 over the cap, it's for every dollar over the luxury tax. And that doesn't kick in for a few years.

Straight from the man, the myth, the legend, Larry Coon:

• • For 2011-12 and 2012-13, teams pay $1 for every $1 their team salary exceeds the tax level. There is no repeater rate.
  • For 2013-14 teams pay an incremental rate based on their team salary. There is no repeater rate.
  • For 2014-15 teams pay an incremental rate based on their team salary. They pay the repeater rate if they also were taxpayers in all of the previous three seasons.
  • For 2015-16 and all subsequent seasons, teams pay an incremental rate based on their team salary. They pay the repeater rate if they were taxpayers in at least three of the four previous seasons.

So the extension would've kicked in after this year, in 2013-14. I don't believe Okc was going to pay the tax this year (correct me if I'm wrong), so the repeater tax wasn't going to kick in until they had paid the tax 3 seasons, which means that assuming they paid the tax in the first year of the extension (2013-14) it wouldn't kick in until the 2016-17 season. (If they would've paid it this year then obviously it would be a year earlier). Keep in mind they could also amnesty Perkins to save them from paying that in tax dollars as well.

I think the more interesting question might be that they essentially picked Ibaka over Harden. To me, the sixth man thing is basically a red herring; yes he didn't start but he was third on the team in minutes played. Though I do think the fact that he was underwhelming in the finals last year probably did help is hastening his departure.

Edit: It's true people give up money in real life to stay in the situation they are in, but that's probably not that relevant when it comes to Harden. He's from California and he's played in Oklahoma City (which, let's be real, is probably not the coolest city for a 23 year old black dude to be living in) for three years.

Oh yeah, I should probably have an opinion on this. I think OKC should've kept Harden and paid the tax.

 

[Gabjon]

Someone was going to offer him a max deal next off-season (or close to it) and then Okc was going to have to decide to match or not.



This is not totally true. It's $4 if you are a repeater and you are at least $15 million over the tax. And it's not $4 for every $1 over the cap, it's for every dollar over the luxury tax. And that doesn't kick in for a few years.

Straight from the man, the myth, the legend, Larry Coon:


So the extension would've kicked in after this year, in 2013-14. I don't believe Okc was going to pay the tax this year (correct me if I'm wrong), so the repeater tax wasn't going to kick in until they had paid the tax 3 seasons, which means that assuming they paid the tax in the first year of the extension (2013-14) it wouldn't kick in until the 2016-17 season. (If they would've paid it this year then obviously it would be a year earlier). Keep in mind they could also amnesty Perkins to save them from paying that in tax dollars as well.

I think the more interesting question might be that they essentially picked Ibaka over Harden. To me, the sixth man thing is basically a red herring; yes he didn't start but he was third on the team in minutes played. Though I do think the fact that he was underwhelming in the finals last year probably did help is hastening his departure.

Edit: It's true people give up money in real life to stay in the situation they are in, but that's probably not that relevant when it comes to Harden. He's from California and he's played in Oklahoma City (which, let's be real, is probably not the coolest city for a 23 year old black dude to be living in) for three years.

I know we went though this when Andy first signed with OKC, but I think picking Ibaka over Harden is a no brainer. Ibaka is a 6'-11 guy who can really play, he can shoot, jump, block shots, and rebound although that needs some work. Harden is very good player but guys like him come out of college each other year. Ibaka would be a #1 pick 8 out of 10 years. Ibaka is better than Anthony Davis will be in my opinion.

 

[Knicks411]

I know we went though this when Andy first signed with OKC, but I think picking Ibaka over Harden is a no brainer. Ibaka is a 6'-11 guy who can really play, he can shoot, jump, block shots, and rebound although that needs some work. Harden is very good player but guys like him come out of college each other year. Ibaka would be a #1 pick 8 out of 10 years. Ibaka is better than Anthony Davis will be in my opinion.

Damn, well if you are right about that then it's definitely a no brainer. There is definitely something to be said for taking the big man over the wing guy.

Harden's efficiency numbers are incredible (career true shooting of 60.5%) but you can also say that he's been on a team with Durant and Westbrook who have taken a lot of attention away from him. I feel like they could've played the year out and at least seen where they were at. Maybe they could've ended up moving Westbrook or something. I dunno; I feel like they have less of a chance of winning the title now than they did before the trade.

 

[Gabjon]

Damn, well if you are right about that then it's definitely a no brainer. There is definitely something to be said for taking the big man over the wing guy.

Harden's efficiency numbers are incredible (career true shooting of 60.5%) but you can also say that he's been on a team with Durant and Westbrook who have taken a lot of attention away from him. I feel like they could've played the year out and at least seen where they were at. Maybe they could've ended up moving Westbrook or something. I dunno; I feel like they have less of a chance of winning the title now than they did before the trade.

I don't Westbrook is one of the fastest guy is NBA history not moving him Martin will be very good as the third option and they got 3 #1 picks including Lamb. Hardens game will be exposed as the number #1 option.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

Harden, Lin, Asik...all guys who are going to look severely overpaid very soon. My god...the Rockets won't even make the playoffs, but now they are limited in their rebuild, getting rid of picks.

 

[RF2044]

Harden, Lin, Asik...all guys who are going to look severely overpaid very soon. My god...the Rockets won't even make the playoffs, but now they are limited in their rebuild, getting rid of picks.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Dork Elvis.

IMO, they were all in on Dwight Howard, and when that fell through things went haywire. I'm of the opinion that they also blew it on draft day--they went in armed with multiple picks, having traded away a few key assets to stockpile bargaining chips to deal to Orlando, and when the Magic didn't bite, they had no plan B.

 

[OrangeDW]

Hope Andy makes the team. Still an average shooter who can't guard anyone in the NBA. Just the way it is.

BS about guys not being happy enough with money. Get every damn dime. They have a limited earning window. What's the difference between 12 mil and 15 mil? Or 48 and 60? A lot of money!!! Somehow people think its all relative. When average Joe gets a 5k raise and see it in your paycheck, its really nice. Millions matter, careers are short. Get paid.

Such bizarre hypocrisy. These are jobs. Any of us would take more money in our gigs. And do it elsewhere, with another company, if they were willing to pay us a lot more.

I see the point, but I don't necessarily agree. Something to consider...

What if OKC goes down as a dynasty that wins 3-4-5 championships and Harden is a huge part of it...resulting in a hall of fame induction, and all that comes with being one of the star players on a dynasty. The potential is there for that. Think James Worthy, Kevin McHale, Dennis Johnson, Robert Parish, Dennis Rodman, Joe Dumars, Scottie Pippen, and eventually Tony Parker, Manu Ginobli, maybe Chris Bosh....guys who are the 2nd-3rd-4th best players on legendary teams go down in history, and it probably improves their post-career opportunities as well.

Now think of all the very good players from those eras who may have been just as good or close to as good as those guys, but toiled away on bad teams for years and are largely forgotten except by big NBA fans.

If I'm in a potentially special situation that is a great fit for me, I strongly consider staying over taking a less than 10%(which is significant, but not insanely huge) raise, especially if I am already loaded with cash.

IF Harden is struggling on 22-60 Rocket teams while shooting 42% because he's not getting the same great looks and is getting more defensive attention, he may find himself willing to give up 6 million to play on a great team.

 

[Gabjon]

I see the point, but I don't necessarily agree. Something to consider...

What if OKC goes down as a dynasty that wins 3-4-5 championships and Harden is a huge part of it...resulting in a hall of fame induction, and all that comes with being one of the star players on a dynasty. The potential is there for that. Think James Worthy, Kevin McHale, Dennis Johnson, Robert Parish, Dennis Rodman, Joe Dumars, Scottie Pippen, and eventually Tony Parker, Manu Ginobli, maybe Chris Bosh....guys who are the 2nd-3rd-4th best players on legendary teams go down in history, and it probably improves their post-career opportunities as well.

Now think of all the very good players from those eras who may have been just as good or close to as good as those guys, but toiled away on bad teams for years and are largely forgotten except by big NBA fans.

If I'm in a potentially special situation that is a great fit for me, I strongly consider staying over taking a less than 10%(which is significant, but not insanely huge) raise, especially if I am already loaded with cash.

IF Harden is struggling on 22-60 Rocket teams while shooting 42% because he's not getting the same great looks and is getting more defensive attention, he may find himself willing to give up 6 million to play on a great team.

Honestly he's a better endorser with OKC than Houston and that would have more than covered the difference in salary.

 

[OrangeDW]

If Harden got $80m, Jonny must be holding out for like 110 based on that one NCAAT game, am I right?


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Some of you guys are taking a little too much glee in being smartasses about Flynn's situation. It was largely Flynn who put us back on the map as the best player on our first sweet 16 team in 5 years, and his college career compares favorably with many guys from that draft.

 

[OrangeDW]

Honestly he's a better endorser with OKC than Houston and that would have more than covered the difference in salary.

Agree.

Not to mention, there's the matter of his next contract after this one too. If he falls on his face in Houston and gets the rep of an overpaid, overrated player, then his value goes down for his next contract. Where, again, let's say he continues to shine as the 3rd guy in OKC on title winning/contending teams...he'd be more than set up for the contract after this one.

Lots of ifs, I know. He could very well go to Houston and play great and become the best 2 guard in basketball, and lead Houston somewhere. Who knows.

I don't think it's as cut and dry as "take the extra 6 million, end of story!" though.

 

[Knicks411]

I don't think it's as cut and dry as "take the extra 6 million, end of story!" though.

This would beHarden's first mega contract. And I think a lot of the doom and gloom stuff with him is oversold; yes playing with Durant and Westbrook draws attention away, but the guy is a heck of a player; he was an All American in college and was picked in the top 5 of the draft. I expect him to be a good player for the Rockets and I would expect him to get a good second contract, when he'll be like 28 years old.

And when it comes right down to it, it's a business. It may not be as cut and dried as take the extra $6-8 million, but more often than not, that's what it's going to come down to.

And hey, maybe Harden wanted a chance to be the man on a team and see what he could do. I guess this goes to show that no matter what a player does, someone can have a problem with that. (I don't mean that as an insult to you, just that it really does make it a no win). Lebron takes less money to go to Miami; he's scared and just wants to team up. Harden wants the max to try and be the man on another team; he's just doing it for the money.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Dork Elvis.

IMO, they were all in on Dwight Howard, and when that fell through things went haywire. I'm of the opinion that they also blew it on draft day--they went in armed with multiple picks, having traded away a few key assets to stockpile bargaining chips to deal to Orlando, and when the Magic didn't bite, they had no plan B.

Yeah, they definitely were all in on Howard, and to be honest, I think they probably had a better offer on the table than what the Magic ended up getting for him. I think Harden is a very good player, but he's obviously not anywhere close to Dwight Howard. Hollinger did mention that Houston could have enough room to offer a max deal to someone next year though; so they could still add another piece next year.

Edit: In case anyone read this already; I previously made mention of Houston being able to offer Harden a 5th year; that looks wrong. So basically Harden turned down $4/52 for $4/60 (though I guess its also worth mentioning that there is no income tax in Texas)

 

[Knicks411]

Also worth mentioning; OKC didn't want to keep the core of one of the best teams in the league together for $2 million a season?

 

[OrangeDW]

This would beHarden's first mega contract. And I think a lot of the doom and gloom stuff with him is oversold; yes playing with Durant and Westbrook draws attention away, but the guy is a heck of a player; he was an All American in college and was picked in the top 5 of the draft. I expect him to be a good player for the Rockets and I would expect him to get a good second contract, when he'll be like 28 years old.

And when it comes right down to it, it's a business. It may not be as cut and dried as take the extra $6-8 million, but more often than not, that's what it's going to come down to.

And hey, maybe Harden wanted a chance to be the man on a team and see what he could do. I guess this goes to show that no matter what a player does, someone can have a problem with that. (I don't mean that as an insult to you, just that it really does make it a no win). Lebron takes less money to go to Miami; he's scared and just wants to team up. Harden wants the max to try and be the man on another team; he's just doing it for the money.

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If he had taken a bit less to stay in OKC, I don't think you'd find one person who could come up with a negative for that. Staying with the team you've been with, is not the same as buddying up like the Heat did.

I don't necessarily think the "leave to go be the man" is a good mentality to have either, if that's the case. It's a team sport. If someone's not happy being a very good player on a great team and they want to "be the man on their own team", that's an ego problem to me. Not saying that was the case with Harden either because we don't know that.

But from the outside looking in, the OKC situation certainly seems like a great one for him or any player.

 

[Gabjon]

Also worth mentioning; OKC didn't want to keep the core of one of the best teams in the league together for $2 million a season?

The 52mill wasn't all guaranteed some of the money was incentive based to avoid luxury tax. For example making the western conference finals

 

[Knicks411]

I don't necessarily think the "leave to go be the man" is a good mentality to have either, if that's the case. It's a team sport. If someone's not happy being a very good player on a great team and they want to "be the man on their own team", that's an ego problem to me. Not saying that was the case with Harden either because we don't know that.

We don't, but these guys are pro athletes. They're hyper competitive. Just about all of them think they are the best and want to prove it.

But from the outside looking in, the OKC situation certainly seems like a great one for him or any player.

No question about it, and if the money had been the same I'm just about positive he would've stayed. But guys at his stage of their career pretty much always take the money and if I was in his shoes I'd probably do the same as well. And I'd probably be pretty bitter that my front office took care of the other 3 guys that are part of the core but didn't want to pony up the extra $2 million a year for me. (I guess my main point is more that I hate the idea, and i'm not saying it's coming from you, but the idea that the player should do all the sacrificing and the team shouldn't do any. And if I were an OKC fan I'd be pretty pissed my team wasn't willing to go into the tax to keep Harden).

Also I was thinking about this; does OKC lose any leverage by signing Harden to the extension? Couldn't they still deal him next summer if they really wanted to avoid the tax?

 

[OrangeDW]

We don't, but these guys are pro athletes. They're hyper competitive. Just about all of them think they are the best and want to prove it.



No question about it, and if the money had been the same I'm just about positive he would've stayed. But guys at his stage of their career pretty much always take the money and if I was in his shoes I'd probably do the same as well. And I'd probably be pretty bitter that my front office took care of the other 3 guys that are part of the core but didn't want to pony up the extra $2 million a year for me. (I guess my main point is more that I hate the idea, and i'm not saying it's coming from you, but the idea that the player should do all the sacrificing and the team shouldn't do any. And if I were an OKC fan I'd be pretty pissed my team wasn't willing to go into the tax to keep Harden).

Also I was thinking about this; does OKC lose any leverage by signing Harden to the extension? Couldn't they still deal him next summer if they really wanted to avoid the tax?

Agree, if I were an OKC fan I wouldn't be real happy with my organization either.

They seemed determined to avoid the distraction of Harden's situation all year long though. They wanted to take care of it now. And according to this, Harden was griping about shots and minutes after a finals game 1 WIN, before apologizing after being checked by Fisher and Perkins. If that's the case, I just don't care for that. I don't want to hear the "competitive, want to be the best" thing either. That's something that selfish ahole players usually say.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--inside-look-at-james-harden-s-trade-to-rockets-28301609.html

 

[BlackKnight76]

Some of you guys are taking a little too much glee in being smartasses about Flynn's situation. It was largely Flynn who put us back on the map as the best player on our first sweet 16 team in 5 years, and his college career compares favorably with many guys from that draft.

It really has little to do with Flynn, I absolutely loved that 2008-09 team, but it's still hilarious that people made such a rash judgment about Harden when they saw him play once. Flynn was a great college player and I still think he could've been a good NBA guy if not for his injuries/getting stuck in Minny.