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Hey Nike, Here Are Your Top 8 Schools to Pay and Lock Up!

I think you are cherry picking a window of time. History is the entire body of work. Top 25% of all time wins and win percentage, etc., etc., etc.

Rutgers fans cherry pick their history to prove their respective points. Every major team has down periods. Michigan has been down, UT was down, Bama has been down (not under Saban, of course). Cherry picking a specific window avoids the overall debate and frames a short window in which a person may fashion the argument to prove their point while ignoring everything else.

Why isn't the window from 1980 or 1987? Because it does not fit your preconceived argument. Everyone likes to argue that kids today don't recall SU as a good team. Fine, not accurate because the win over WVU and the win of KState in the Pin Stripe Bowl games were all over TV, but for the sake of your argument, we will ignore the obvious. However, you cannot ignore that the parents of the kids who are now playing never heard of SU in football. The parents were the youth of the day when SU was in full bore top tier football. These same youth turned parents are helping todays players make the decision regarding which school to attend.

I am not slamming you for having an opinion that differs from mine, but I am questioning the full logic of an opinion that appears more contrived (a la Rutgers 1869 and 2006-present history only) than fully reasoned. Especially because the opinion requires one to ignore to fantastic/memorable Pin Stripe Bowl wins; the opinion demands that we believe kids are making decisions in a vacuum; that parents and grand parents have no input/influence; and that history has no impact on kids.

If 2 pinstripe bowl wins is what we're hanging our hat on over 15 years, that's sad. In that timeframe the bball team has been to 3 final fours and won a national title.

I'm not cherry picking a time frame. Even in the 1910's our bball team was better than football. We had a great 15 yr run in football from the late 80s to early 2000's. We also had a good run in the 50's-60's. Outside of that, we've been relatively average. But let's play with your cherry picked timeframe. From 80-87, if my math is right, we had a 151-66 record in bball, good for about a 66% win %. Football over that time was 46-42-1, a 51% win % and 1 of those seasons was 11-0-1, so without that we have a losing record. So for 6 of the years you picked we were under .500. JB has never once had a team under .500. So your cherry picked timeframe to prove your point only helps my side of the argument. I'm not sure what else to say. Syracuse basketball has had greater success over time and when it comes to national perception and media, SU bball coverage far exceeds SU football.

And as far as parents telling their children how great team "x" was when they were growing up - that literally holds no water. Kids want to play for who is winning NOW. Winning improves recruiting, not some parent talking about "back in my day." If that were the case, why isn't SMU any good today? They were great in the 80's for a bit. The more we win, the better recruiting will be, and the better our program will become.
 
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If 2 pinstripe bowl wins is what we're hanging our hat on over 15 years, that's sad. In that timeframe the bball team has been to 3 final fours and won a national title.

I'm not cherry picking a time frame. Even in the 1910's our bball team was better than football. We had a great 15 yr run in football from the late 80s to early 2000's. We also had a good run in the 50's-60's. Outside of that, we've been relatively average. But let's play with your cherry picked timeframe. From 80-87, if my math is right, we had a 151-66 record in bball, good for about a 66% win %. Football over that time was 46-42-1, a 51% win % and 1 of those seasons was 11-0-1, so without that we have a losing record. So for 6 of the years you picked we were under .500. JB has never once had a team under .500. So your cherry picked timeframe to prove your point only helps my side of the argument. I'm not sure what else to say. Syracuse basketball has had greater success over time and when it comes to national perception and media, SU bball coverage far exceeds SU football.

And as far as parents telling their children how great team "x" was when they were growing up - that literally holds no water. Kids want to play for who is winning NOW. Winning improves recruiting, not some parent talking about "back in my day." If that were the case, why isn't SMU any good today? They were great in the 80's for a bit. The more we win, the better recruiting will be, and the better our program will become.


Try comprehension, I mentioned 1980 and 1987, not a window, I asked why your window did not include any other time, just your 15 years, pre-selected window which frames your preconceived point.

I don't recall comparing hoops vs. gridiron, that means your entire 2nd paragraph is a strawman deflection so you do not have to address the real facts. Rather than address the full story, you stick with your framed little notion and deflect away from the facts, all the facts.

Glad you dismiss two very exciting wins in Yankee Stadium. I didn't say we hang our hats on them, that is your argument, another strawman to deflect from the whole truth. Perhaps you heard of the VATech win in 2016. Maybe the Clemson victory in 2017. I'm sorry you believe that SU football has been so horrible to watch, real fans stayed with them when they were down. We all disliked losing, the hopes, the rollercoaster (Marrone), et al. That still does not detract from the history that is SU football.

Your argument that kids want to win now is only partly true. Most kids want to make it to the top, the NFL. They want playing time in a good system that will showcase their talents. Not every 4 & 5 star lays for Bama, in fact they get cut often enough. Many kids want time on the field. Many kids want an education. Granted, most kids going to Bama don't know what an education is, but good parents know what it is and want their kids to make it in life. Good parents know that even the best athletes face season and career ending injuries in school or even when they make the pros. ALL Parents understand that most people who make the NFL will work after playing - The average NFL career is about 3 years! Your concept that kids do as they want in the moment discredits the good parents and smart kids that know they will have to earn a living when football ends. Most college athletes know that college is the last stop and they have a free ride to a career that pays well.
 
Even Boeheim has publicly stated in the past that "We are a football school that plays pretty darn good Basketball."

JB has never said anyth
Try comprehension, I mentioned 1980 and 1987, not a window, I asked why your window did not include any other time, just your 15 years, pre-selected window which frames your preconceived point.

I don't recall comparing hoops vs. gridiron, that means your entire 2nd paragraph is a strawman deflection so you do not have to address the real facts. Rather than address the full story, you stick with your framed little notion and deflect away from the facts, all the facts.

Glad you dismiss two very exciting wins in Yankee Stadium. I didn't say we hang our hats on them, that is your argument, another strawman to deflect from the whole truth. Perhaps you heard of the VATech win in 2016. Maybe the Clemson victory in 2017. I'm sorry you believe that SU football has been so horrible to watch, real fans stayed with them when they were down. We all disliked losing, the hopes, the rollercoaster (Marrone), et al. That still does not detract from the history that is SU football.

Your argument that kids want to win now is only partly true. Most kids want to make it to the top, the NFL. They want playing time in a good system that will showcase their talents. Not every 4 & 5 star lays for Bama, in fact they get cut often enough. Many kids want time on the field. Many kids want an education. Granted, most kids going to Bama don't know what an education is, but good parents know what it is and want their kids to make it in life. Good parents know that even the best athletes face season and career ending injuries in school or even when they make the pros. ALL Parents understand that most people who make the NFL will work after playing - The average NFL career is about 3 years! Your concept that kids do as they want in the moment discredits the good parents and smart kids that know they will have to earn a living when football ends. Most college athletes know that college is the last stop and they have a free ride to a career that pays well.

Ok, from 80 or 87 to current day, hoops has still been more successful. And yes, I've heard of the Clemson and VA Tech wins. I was there. SU football has been difficult to watch, but I'm at every home game and live and die with them. I support them and they are coming back. Over the course of time, SU bball has been more successful. That is a fact. I'm using numbers to back up my points. You're getting upset because what I'm staying is true and it doesn't fit your argument.

We clearly we differ on this viewpoint, which is fine, but we want the same thing; a successful football school. And I think we're getting back there.
 
JB has never said anyth


Ok, from 80 or 87 to current day, hoops has still been more successful. And yes, I've heard of the Clemson and VA Tech wins. I was there. SU football has been difficult to watch, but I'm at every home game and live and die with them. I support them and they are coming back. Over the course of time, SU bball has been more successful. That is a fact. I'm using numbers to back up my points. You're getting upset because what I'm staying is true and it doesn't fit your argument.

We clearly we differ on this viewpoint, which is fine, but we want the same thing; a successful football school. And I think we're getting back there.
He absolutely has said that publicly.
 
SU is at its core is a football school. Our football tradition is legendary.
We are also one of the most widely recognized college Basketball programs in the world. In addition we are the most sucessful D1 college Lacrosse program of all time.
Syracuse is a world Brand. With the resurgence of our Football program we are about to enter a period of athletic prominence and success not seen in decades.
 
I didn't say we hang our hats on them, that is your argument, another strawman to deflect from the whole truth. Perhaps you heard of the VATech win in 2016. Maybe the Clemson victory in 2017. I'm sorry you believe that SU football has been so horrible to watch, real fans stayed with them when they were down.

I know Doc personally and he stayed to the closing whistle of every single home game in the Greg Robinson era.

You stop with the strawman arguments.
 
I'm talking a widespread poll, all ages/races/genders etc. I believe if you polled people who live in Syracuse, SU b'ball would rank above football, and if you polled a more national population, the margin between b'ball and football would be even wider.

Yes, we're looking like we're back in football. But SUl has been relevant for a long stretch now. Prior to the last 15 years, we had a very solid 15 year run. Before that it was more mediocrity.
i am guessing that more mature fans that have a longer hx with su feel we are(and wish) we are football school. that is our emotional connection. financially we all know the story and needs of su re football. i also believe that you are right most folks of any age with out the old emotional connections would say basketball first
 
He absolutely has said that publicly.

I was typing on my phone and clearly did not finish my thought. I was going to say, "JB has not said anything that isn't 100% accurate. ;)"
 
That was written well before the NCAA BB tournament existed. Hell, maybe even before the NCAA existed.
Point of Useless Trivia - The NCAA was founded in 1904.

Teddy Roosevelt called in a bunch of University presidents to the WH and told them to clean up the dangers of football or it would be banned by Congress (and TR didn't want it banned).
 
i am guessing that more mature fans that have a longer hx with su feel we are(and wish) we are football school. that is our emotional connection. financially we all know the story and needs of su re football. i also believe that you are right most folks of any age with out the old emotional connections would say basketball first

I completely agree Tipp. I believe it is the emotional connection piece and the wishing we were the football school that we once were. I'm of the belief we can get back there, assuming we can hold onto Dino and he keeps this thing moving in the right direction. I'm a little bit younger (mid 30's), so I've experienced the ups of the Graves & McNabb eras and the downs (no need to rehash those) and now, hopefully another era of ups with Dino at the helm.
 
I think you are cherry picking a window of time. History is the entire body of work. Top 25% of all time wins and win percentage, etc., etc., etc.

Rutgers fans cherry pick their history to prove their respective points. Every major team has down periods. Michigan has been down, UT was down, Bama has been down (not under Saban, of course). Cherry picking a specific window avoids the overall debate and frames a short window in which a person may fashion the argument to prove their point while ignoring everything else.

Why isn't the window from 1980 or 1987? Because it does not fit your preconceived argument. Everyone likes to argue that kids today don't recall SU as a good team. Fine, not accurate because the win over WVU and the win of KState in the Pin Stripe Bowl games were all over TV, but for the sake of your argument, we will ignore the obvious. However, you cannot ignore that the parents of the kids who are now playing never heard of SU in football. The parents were the youth of the day when SU was in full bore top tier football. These same youth turned parents are helping todays players make the decision regarding which school to attend.

I am not slamming you for having an opinion that differs from mine, but I am questioning the full logic of an opinion that appears more contrived (a la Rutgers 1869 and 2006-present history only) than fully reasoned. Especially because the opinion requires one to ignore to fantastic/memorable Pin Stripe Bowl wins; the opinion demands that we believe kids are making decisions in a vacuum; that parents and grand parents have no input/influence; and that history has no impact on kids.

I think the long and short of it is simple...

We have been a basketball school, we have been a football school, we have been a lacrosse school, and we have been mixtures of BB & FB, or a mix of all three. Just depends on who is asked and when they are asked.

1959? Football.
1987? Both.
1990's? Both.
Early 2000's? Both with a Basketball lean.
2003 to 2017? Mostly Basketball.

We have a fantastic history in both sports. The argument is just something for a message board. I've been alive since 1990 and nothing makes me happier in the sports world than Syracuse Football succeeding.

We're all Orange - and it's a great time to be so.
 
I know Doc personally and he stayed to the closing whistle of every single home game in the Greg Robinson era.

You stop with the strawman arguments.

Taking things out of context, but O.K. Stick with the points of my arguments.
 
JB has never said anyth


Ok, from 80 or 87 to current day, hoops has still been more successful. And yes, I've heard of the Clemson and VA Tech wins. I was there. SU football has been difficult to watch, but I'm at every home game and live and die with them. I support them and they are coming back. Over the course of time, SU bball has been more successful. That is a fact. I'm using numbers to back up my points. You're getting upset because what I'm staying is true and it doesn't fit your argument.

We clearly we differ on this viewpoint, which is fine, but we want the same thing; a successful football school. And I think we're getting back there.

I'm not upset, just pointing out that you picked a very small window of time for your definition. I showed your window was selected to prove your point.

By your argument, you must absolutely believe that SU is neither a football nor a hoops school but a lacrosse school. This is YOUR logic as noted by your comment that "SU bball has been more successful. That is a fact. I'm using numbers to back up my points." As you state, numbers don't lie. Lacrosse has been more successful than football and basketball. Why are you not consistent in your logic?

Again, I never claimed football was more successful than hoops. That is your strawman argument. re-read the posts. Stay on topic.

P.S. I don't get upset at posters, generally, especially when good debate is going on. I reserve being "upset" for people trashing players (not so much during game threads, though), being unreasonable (demanding SU spend like a drunk sailor on leave after being at sea for 6 months) or those who justify Rutgers' existence other than to keep everyone else humble - In the vein of "but for the Grace of God, there go I" humility.
 
Syracuse is neither a football school, nor a basketball school.

My test is how the fans/alumni/students react to down seasons.

SU FB was down for 17 years, but it wasn’t for a lack of trying. We fired a coach for going 6-7, revitalized all of our facilities, had a coach get poached by the NFL, changed conferences, and hired one of the most promising g5 coaches in America along the way. There were mistakes along the way, but hindsight is 20-20.

Schools like Kansas, Duke, and Kentucky have occasional years of success in football (see KU under the meatball, UK this year, and Duke under Cutcliffe), but that success is due more to random chance than the school’s commitment to winning on a big stage.

The same goes for the reverse. Schools like PSU, Alabama, Nebraska, and Auburn could never make the NCAAT ever again, and neither their fans, nor the school would care, so long as the football team consistently won. That level of one-sided apathy doesn’t exist at SU.

Instead, we’re just a sports school that also has very good academics.
 
I love that we’re having this debate in November rather than talking about future recruits in the middle of a season. By the way...football school.
 
Football is more important because it makes more money.

Basketball has been much more successful the last 20 years.

This discussion is pointless and stupid. A couple “football onlies” get a bug up their butt because some “basketball onlies” jump on the bandwagon. Who cares.
 
I'm not upset, just pointing out that you picked a very small window of time for your definition. I showed your window was selected to prove your point.

By your argument, you must absolutely believe that SU is neither a football nor a hoops school but a lacrosse school. This is YOUR logic as noted by your comment that "SU bball has been more successful. That is a fact. I'm using numbers to back up my points." As you state, numbers don't lie. Lacrosse has been more successful than football and basketball. Why are you not consistent in your logic?

Again, I never claimed football was more successful than hoops. That is your strawman argument. re-read the posts. Stay on topic.

P.S. I don't get upset at posters, generally, especially when good debate is going on. I reserve being "upset" for people trashing players (not so much during game threads, though), being unreasonable (demanding SU spend like a drunk sailor on leave after being at sea for 6 months) or those who justify Rutgers' existence other than to keep everyone else humble - In the vein of "but for the Grace of God, there go I" humility.

You're right. The lacrosse team has been the most successful. You keep using the "strawman" theme. I gave other reasons for my stance. I also discussed national relevance, fan interest level, media attention. I think we can probably agree lacrosse is not in the same stratosphere as a sport as football & hoops. There are approximately 350 hoops schools - we are a top 10 all time school. 120ish FBS programs - we are probably somewhere in the 35-45 all time range. There are 70ish lacrosse teams. I'm sure we're a top 2 or 3 program, at absolute worst.

My stance isn't going to change. I fully believe we are a basketball school. All this aside, we got a nice road win today, so let's enjoy that!
 
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