Honeymoon Over

[CanadianSU]

Please back up with source/data. Thanks

At another 4-8 compete isn't going to matter. Next year needs to be better.

 

[RandomGuy]

My main concern about Babers is that so far he seems to stick to what he does, but I am not sure what he does works at this level.

An incomplete talent pool, does not work at any level. Your concern will take a year or two more to be verified.

With last year's def complaints, that was improved to the #1 3rd down defense in the country 3/4 of the way through... Can't improve on that particular metric.

It's a rebuild. Cuse309 gave the hard numbers on how successful ones go. There is no magic wand.

 

[SUbear]

An incomplete talent pool, does not work at any level. Your concern will take a year or two more to be verified.

With last year's def complaints, that was improved to the #1 3rd down defense in the country 3/4 of the way through... Can't improve on that particular metric.

It's a rebuild. Cuse309 gave the hard numbers on how successful ones go. There is no magic wand.

That is why it is just a concern, otherwise it would be more than a concern. I do not like the defense he plays no matter his personnel, but that is just my opinion. I hope he gets this going and soon. I do not want to change coaches at this time, but I do want to see progress. Another 4 win season or worse would not be progress. Five wins would be marginal progress and six would be really good. I am not asking for the moon just a glimmer of hope.
The program is on life support attendance wise, and winning will be the only cure.

 

[qdawgg]

Man. There is always at least one person that misses the point when I post this.
What it means, is that through 2 years, and 2 4-8 records, that there is ZERO reason as of now to worry, and even if he wins 4 or 5 next year, although it will be a bit worrisome, it wouldn't be time to throw in the towel after year 3 either.
G-Rob and Shafer never showed signs of improving record wise, or statistically either. Although we won only 4 games this year, we scored more, surrendered less points on defense, and pulled off a win that no coach in the prior 33 years was able to do. There are signs of improvement.

Dude - I know what you meant. There's always one guy that doesn't get sarcasm because he's so vested in protecting the current HC from any criticism. This board has a few.

 

[qdawgg]

It's a rebuild. Cuse309 gave the hard numbers on how successful ones go. There is no magic wand.

He also conveniently left out the coaches that were given more time and failed.

Based on the logic that every coach should get 4 - 5 years to prove themselves if their record sucks the first few years, nobody would ever be fired.

 

[cuse309]

He also conveniently left out the coaches that were given more time and failed.

Based on the logic that every coach should get 4 - 5 years to prove themselves if their record sucks the first few years, nobody would ever be fired.

Is that sarcasm, or are you missing the point this time?

 

[RandomGuy]

He also conveniently left out the coaches that were given more time and failed.

Based on the logic that every coach should get 4 - 5 years to prove themselves if their record sucks the first few years, nobody would ever be fired.

Perhaps. I believe his sample was for coaches showing an upward trajectory, that specifically related to Cuse. They fit that argument, and for me, our situation. I still have no reason to believe, that this program isn't going to steadily improve - with bumps in the road. Coaches not trending up, need to go - not the case here-or the logic you assigned to him. I get that you were simply countering his point, for debate.

As fans, we just want the W, now.. He nabbed 4 star Devito, last year, because Devito believed in him. Another 3? 4 stars, this year, for the same reason. The kids believe they can win with him. More will, next year. This isn't G5. You need those kids, to compete in the best conference in college football. It's not the Big East, either.

For now, it's did he improve what he was given? Yes - by boatloads, for me. Now I wanna see the 4 stars... That's 2 years out, if they play young, and not quite ready. The pieces are in place. I see improvement on the field, and recruiting. It takes time.

 

[qdawgg]

Perhaps. I believe his sample was for coaches showing an upward trajectory, that specifically related to Cuse. They fit that argument, and for me, our situation. I still have no reason to believe, that this program isn't going to steadily improve - with bumps in the road. Coaches not trending up, need to go - not the case here-or the logic you assigned to him. I get that you were simply countering his point, for debate.

As fans, we just want the W, now.. He nabbed 4 star Devito, last year, because Devito believed in him. Another 3? 4 stars, this year, for the same reason. The kids believe they can win with him. More will, next year. This isn't G5. You need those kids, to compete in the best conference in college football. It's not the Big East, either.

For now, it's did he improve what he was given? Yes - by boatloads, for me. Now I wanna see the 4 stars... That's 2 years out, if they play young, and not quite ready. The pieces are in place. I see improvement on the field, and recruiting. It takes time.

Nailed it, my work here is done.

I think we will continue to improve but I also realize that to some degree there's a certain level of blind faith. There's just as many reasons to be nervous as there are to be hopeful and it's silly for people to profess that there is some guarantee DB will be successful. I hope he is and I believe he will be but I'm also not big into wearing blinders.

 

[RandomGuy]

That is why it is just a concern, otherwise it would be more than a concern. I do not like the defense he plays no matter his personnel, but that is just my opinion. I hope he gets this going and soon. I do not want to change coaches at this time, but I do want to see progress. Another 4 win season or worse would not be progress. Five wins would be marginal progress and six would be really good. I am not asking for the moon just a glimmer of hope.
The program is on life support attendance wise, and winning will be the only cure.

I understand the concern. I think the talent level/depth needs to be there. It's not(yet). Why I'm holding out judgement for a couple years. My concern, that plays into yours? Is the Tempo. (Meathead/Defense lover) When the offense can't maintain drives, no matter what defense you run, they are going to give up points.(more opportunities). I don't like how symbiotic they become.

Other side of the coin...
The Def had the #1 3rd down Def in the country til game 10?

As a Meathead, I don't like that it's all based on Off performance(time of possession). I do LOVE the 3rd down stat. That's huge(in this system). I'm not used to looking at it this way. I wanna run it down their throat, with 8 minute drives, but we can't.. (yet). So I get the Tempo. A balanced run threat, may start to balance things. Already shown that they can be the best on 3rd down(proof). Pair all those things up, and now you have something. I don't like the symbiotic relationship. But I just watched it show that it can compete with ranked programs... Even with pieces missing. I'm going to wait for the pieces.

 

[RandomGuy]

Nailed it, my work here is done.

I think we will continue to improve but I also realize that to some degree there's a certain level of blind faith. There's just as many reasons to be nervous as there are to be hopeful and it's silly for people to profess that there is some guarantee DB will be successful. I hope he is and I believe he will be but I'm also not big into wearing blinders.

Definitely, no guarantees. If next year has hiccup's, so be it. Although... I slightly disagree with your blind faith assertion. I only went back to Shafer's rookie bowl campaign(the last Cuse bowl) We were dismantled by ranked opponents(I posted the scores, I don't believe in blinders) This year was the best performance vs. ranked opponents since pre Shafer... For me, that is not blind faith. It's a leading indicator.

To your point, that could change. But when I see 4 star recruits coming down the pipeline, I'm not assigning that faith blindly, either. I see a poker hand, that I'm not going to fold on. I need a couple more cards, before I get to 50/50.

 

[cuse309]

Nailed it, my work here is done.

I think we will continue to improve but I also realize that to some degree there's a certain level of blind faith. There's just as many reasons to be nervous as there are to be hopeful and it's silly for people to profess that there is some guarantee DB will be successful. I hope he is and I believe he will be but I'm also not big into wearing blinders.

If you're trying to counter a point for debate, perhaps it would be wise to have a counterpoint that has something to do with my original point. SMH.

 

[TheCusian]

Once again, I have not called for the removal of Dino Babers, Simply asked for 6 wins in year three, not a lot when you have one FCS and two very beatable non P5 teams on your schedule. More importantly , Babers will have more of his recruits then His predecessor on the field. Lets see if they can play a 12 game schedule instead of the 9 game one they played this year.

I've asked for more than 6 wins (and thought we had a shot) every year in the DB era. This is just you drawing an arbitrary red line.

 

[TheCusian]

Just about every successful HCs have a year three bump. If Babers does not, history says he won’t be the guy.

We've already had a 2nd year bump. It got masked by our schedule and close losses to the top teams. It's just not about who you beat, but how far you needed to come to even compete. This narrative that we've had two years of no growth depends a lot on seeing all 4-8 records as equal.

The schedule opens up a bit next year (would be better if we saw some opposing coaches leave and I haven't looked at who loses what talent wise), so the bump might show up in our actual record next season.

 

[storange]

I've asked for more than 6 wins (and thought we had a shot) every year in the DB era. This is just you drawing an arbitrary red line.

Incorrect, 6 wins gets you 5 weeks of extended practice and more visibility. Not arbitrary at all.

 

[TheCusian]

Incorrect, 6 wins gets you 5 weeks of extended practice and more visibility. Not arbitrary at all.

Sorry, must have misinterpreted your take. So you're hoping for 6 wins like the rest of us. Not saying "honeymoon is over" as some kind of redline?

Like, what happens if they fail to get to 6?

 

[Alsacs]

So you’re saying we should have given GROB and Shafer more time?

Scott Shafer shouldn’t have gotten the job to begin with.
It was doomed to fail the second he was hired as HC.
Shafer wasn’t a HC candidate anywhere else. He was a cheap continuation hire who went backwards.
Robinson should have been fired after year 3 but the school had no money it was Big East Era. If Gerg were now the coach he is gone after year 3.

 

[sufandu]

I've glanced at this thread a few times over the last few days. Anyone that actually says the honeymoon is over for them needs to become a SEC team fan. That's the attitude those guys have. The frustration that comes with the way we finished this season can't blind us to the challanges we have to overcome to see the results in the W/L column and the progress that was made this year.

Until the defense became a mash unit, it was much improved over last year. Midway through the season we began to see progress in the run game. Despite teams knowing we wanted to throw the ball, we were able to put up good numbers even though we didn't have a consistent deep threat like we had last year with AET.

We were better this year. We'll be better next year. It'll take a little while longer to get consistently good.

If we're 4-8 in year 4, start this thread over. As of right now it's a knee jerk reaction to a frustrating finish to a season that had our hopes up halfway through.

 

[Trueblue25]

and Clemson played the Citadel last weekend. 3 different QBs played. 9 different guys got a carry and 15 different players caught a pass. 31 players in the defensive box score.

Here's an interesting tidbit. They had 72 players on their Citadel participation report and then followed that up with 49 players against South Carolina.

I'm not fact checking our participation report but here is ours from some selected games.

29 - BC
31 - MTSU
43 - Central CT St

Nah we don't have a talent/depth issue. None at all.

This should end the debate

 

[cuse309]

He also conveniently left out the coaches that were given more time and failed.

Based on the logic that every coach should get 4 - 5 years to prove themselves if their record sucks the first few years, nobody would ever be fired.

 

[Rautins07]

I'm in for the long haul on Dino, can't keep changing every 2-3 years, but I do think he has to make a change with Ward or the scheme, if not and next year is more of the same, he is gonna back himself in a corner.

 

[Pyle]

No you did. Your argument holds no merit. It's like saying 1/2 the time that you see gray clouds you might get rain. You cherry picked your stats with absolutely no control group. What you would really need to do is a comparison of about 100 different things, ppg from year to year, ypg year to year, etc, etc, etc. You're basically saying people need to give Dino slack because other coaches who have turned around programs needed 3 years. The counter-point here that you are missing is that there are alot of coaches who fail at turning something around after 2 years as well, probably alot more than what's on your list. So I see no problem with questioning why we can't win games in November, why we finish the year ranked in the bottom of all of FBS in defensive stats, why our ppg is below the national average even after 2 years in the system. Things like that.

Nobody is calling for Dino to be fired. Not one person. Questions are legitimately arising though and they need real answers.

 

[qdawgg]

Scott Shafer shouldn’t have gotten the job to begin with.
It was doomed to fail the second he was hired as HC.
Shafer wasn’t a HC candidate anywhere else. He was a cheap continuation hire who went backwards.
Robinson should have been fired after year 3 but the school had no money it was Big East Era. If Gerg were now the coach he is gone after year 3.

My comment was tongue in cheek.

 

[sufandu]

I'm in for the long haul on Dino, can't keep changing every 2-3 years, but I do think he has to make a change with Ward or the scheme, if not and next year is more of the same, he is gonna back himself in a corner.

Why? Which is a better picture of the scheme, the first 8 games or the last 4?

I wasn't a fan of the idea to run tampa 2 when that was first announced. But we rarely ran it in a pure form this year. What we did worked well when guys were healthy/fresh. I wish they hadn't ever said that's what we were doing. I wonder how many on here would've noticed. My biggest coaching criticism is that maybe we could've played some of the younger guys a LB a little more... maybe.

 

[qdawgg]

I can't be the only one finding it funny that you posted this for me and not me to you.

Can we bring SaintTristan back?

 

[Pyle]

I can't be the only one finding it funny that you posted this for me and not me to you.

Can we bring SaintTristan back?

You weren't which is why I couldn't help it and threw myself into the melee.